AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-07-27, 20:04   Link #29661
AnimeFan188
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Ft. Hood shooting suspect rails at U.S. in statement to Fox News:

"Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the former Army psychiatrist on trial in the 2009 shooting
rampage at Ft. Hood, Texas, on Saturday accused the United States of being at war
with Islam, outlining his complaints in an statement he sent to Fox News."

See:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,6012911.story
AnimeFan188 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-27, 20:53   Link #29662
Kokukirin
Shadow of Effilisi
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
That is in your opinion, but in China has a long history of crazy cult taking down the government (including Qing Empire by the Boxers in the late 19 century)

Also, one of the shinning mission of the cult is to destroy to CCP (as declared by their founder, so it is fair game).

Regardless, he is also a "Cult of Personality" and China already had enough of those.
I can't think of a crazy cult that actually successfully took down the central government in Chinese history. At best they caused chaos all over and weakened the state. And oh, the Boxers were supported by the Qing government. Even the more threatening Taiping Rebellion failed miserably in the end.

Falun Gong did not initially seek to overthrow the CCP. They existed in China for several years but was harassed like every other religious group not under government control. Their big mistake was to stage the biggest demonstration since 1989 to protest about the harassments, and that unsettled the CCP leadership. The following heavy-handed crackdown is the reason why Falun Gong became so anti-government.

And I guess it never occured to you that believing in the CCP propaganda is not really that different from following a cult?
Kokukirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-27, 21:09   Link #29663
KiraYamatoFan
Mata/Kagawa/Januzaj ♥♥♥
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 30
And even if Falungong has become anti-government, what did they do so far to earn their title of enemy of the state? Did they kill? Did they destroy millions of dollars in government property? Did they rape innocent people? Did they commit terrorism? They are not even remotely close of doing anything of that sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
And I guess it never occured to you that believing in the CCP propaganda is not really that different from following a cult?
Thank you very much for putting this. The cult of Mao is still held up in some places too and I haven't heard of any Demaoisation unlike the Destalinization and then the destruction of Communism symbols in Russia after 1991.

And if the CCP gets overthrown by the angry masses who are not as fully obedient as their predecessors, then what? ArchmageXin and Tom seem to believe that the worst bits of the Bible would happen in China if the CCP gets kicked out of power.
__________________
Congratulations to the new teacher at Harvard's "The Business of Entertainment, Media and Sports" program, Sir Alex Ferguson.

Link to the article: here

Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2013-07-27 at 21:36.
KiraYamatoFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-27, 21:21   Link #29664
ganbaru
books-eater youkai
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
Analysis: Setbacks to bring quieter Qatar foreign policy but no U-turn
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...96P07N20130726
__________________

ganbaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-27, 21:44   Link #29665
ChainLegacy
廉頗
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts, US
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
I can't think of a crazy cult that actually successfully took down the central government in Chinese history. At best they caused chaos all over and weakened the state. And oh, the Boxers were supported by the Qing government. Even the more threatening Taiping Rebellion failed miserably in the end.

Falun Gong did not initially seek to overthrow the CCP. They existed in China for several years but was harassed like every other religious group not under government control. Their big mistake was to stage the biggest demonstration since 1989 to protest about the harassments, and that unsettled the CCP leadership. The following heavy-handed crackdown is the reason why Falun Gong became so anti-government.

And I guess it never occured to you that believing in the CCP propaganda is not really that different from following a cult?
The Red Turban rebellion took down the Yuan Dynasty and was definitely cultish/religious in nature. Taiping Rebellion didn't actually overthrow the government, but the damage was so colossal it might as well have. Qing never properly recovered from it. Likewise, if we want to go really far back in history, the Yellow Turban rebellion was also cultish in nature (interestingly so, as it was a Taoist movement that claimed to be striving for ultimate peace). That rebellion failed too, but put the wheels in motion for the regional splintering that would eventually tear the Han apart.

Putting that aside, I do recognize that there's probably some fear mongering going on with Western reports of many Chinese human rights issues and I'm always skeptical about how truthful things are. Nonetheless, I'm definitely sure there ARE human rights abuses going on, even if they are overplayed or over-focused. Additionally, I'm the first person to recognize the horrible shit the West has done/continues to do, so I don't think it's an either/or thing. You can quite logically see that there are major flaws and morally reprehensible acts committed by both sides, and criticize both sides without being 'biased.' Because really, while we've made progress in many areas, human governance is still a mess filled with corruption, misdeeds, etc, no matter what country you're talking about, USA, China, whatever. No one has a clean record.

That's why I completely understand the frustration with the US being the 'moral police' of the world. Yup, it's annoying, it's hypocritical, and you can point that out. Even so, abuses are abuses, and the US's hypocrisy white knight global policing doesn't necessarily make bad things "okay."
ChainLegacy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-27, 22:45   Link #29666
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
Ft. Hood shooting suspect rails at U.S. in statement to Fox News:

"Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the former Army psychiatrist on trial in the 2009 shooting
rampage at Ft. Hood, Texas, on Saturday accused the United States of being at war
with Islam, outlining his complaints in an statement he sent to Fox News."

See:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,6012911.story
USA is not officially at war with Islam... But it is more like a proxy war. Both sides have religious fanatics signing up to kill the opposition for personal religious reasons.

There are more practical reasons for why the war is going on, the religion angle is just a recruitment tool.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-27, 23:21   Link #29667
Kokukirin
Shadow of Effilisi
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
The Red Turban rebellion took down the Yuan Dynasty and was definitely cultish/religious in nature. Taiping Rebellion didn't actually overthrow the government, but the damage was so colossal it might as well have. Qing never properly recovered from it. Likewise, if we want to go really far back in history, the Yellow Turban rebellion was also cultish in nature (interestingly so, as it was a Taoist movement that claimed to be striving for ultimate peace). That rebellion failed too, but put the wheels in motion for the regional splintering that would eventually tear the Han apart.
The Red Turban rebellion started it, but the eventually winner Zhu YuanZhang's force was not cultish in nature. Zhu was a Buddhist monk for some time before the rebellion. Then during the uprising Zhu feigned support of the Taoist Red Turbans but soon drowned its prominent leader Han LinEr to consolidate his power. Zhu's force developed into a professional army and had to battle through many nearby rivals as well as the Mongols to put an end to Yuan Dynasty. To attribute Yuan's overthrow to religious cult is quite a stretch.

Quote:
Putting that aside, I do recognize that there's probably some fear mongering going on with Western reports of many Chinese human rights issues and I'm always skeptical about how truthful things are. Nonetheless, I'm definitely sure there ARE human rights abuses going on, even if they are overplayed or over-focused. Additionally, I'm the first person to recognize the horrible shit the West has done/continues to do, so I don't think it's an either/or thing. You can quite logically see that there are major flaws and morally reprehensible acts committed by both sides, and criticize both sides without being 'biased.' Because really, while we've made progress in many areas, human governance is still a mess filled with corruption, misdeeds, etc, no matter what country you're talking about, USA, China, whatever. No one has a clean record.

That's why I completely understand the frustration with the US being the 'moral police' of the world. Yup, it's annoying, it's hypocritical, and you can point that out. Even so, abuses are abuses, and the US's hypocrisy white knight global policing doesn't necessarily make bad things "okay."
Uh yeah, the typical "the other guy is bad too" defence. It is obviously hypocritical of US government to talk about human right abuses while running Gitmo. But I don't run Gitmo and I don't abuse my dog. So I guess I am on the moral high ground to criticize CCP's abuses.
Kokukirin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-27, 23:54   Link #29668
ChainLegacy
廉頗
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts, US
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
The Red Turban rebellion started it, but the eventually winner Zhu YuanZhang's force was not cultish in nature. Zhu was a Buddhist monk for some time before the rebellion. Then during the uprising Zhu feigned support of the Taoist Red Turbans but soon drowned its prominent leader Han LinEr to consolidate his power. Zhu's force developed into a professional army and had to battle through many nearby rivals as well as the Mongols to put an end to Yuan Dynasty. To attribute Yuan's overthrow to religious cult is quite a stretch.
Well, I didn't mean to say a cult in and of itself overthrew the Yuan dynasty, but rather point to the fact that it was an integral component of the uprising, which cannot be denied. So it can be argued that there is some wariness culturally speaking from the Chinese regarding new religious movements. Of course, none of that justifies suppressing people's religious beliefs, so long as these beliefs don't entail harming others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Uh yeah, the typical "the other guy is bad too" defence. It is obviously hypocritical of US government to talk about human right abuses while running Gitmo. But I don't run Gitmo and I don't abuse my dog. So I guess I am on the moral high ground to criticize CCP's abuses.
Exactly. It's a really weak line of thinking, but it seems pretty prevalent for the Chinese government apologists... in my limited experience, anyways.
ChainLegacy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 00:21   Link #29669
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
I can't think of a crazy cult that actually successfully took down the central government in Chinese history. At best they caused chaos all over and weakened the state. And oh, the Boxers were supported by the Qing government. Even the more threatening Taiping Rebellion failed miserably in the end.

Falun Gong did not initially seek to overthrow the CCP. They existed in China for several years but was harassed like every other religious group not under government control. Their big mistake was to stage the biggest demonstration since 1989 to protest about the harassment, and that unsettled the CCP leadership. The following heavy-handed crackdown is the reason why Falun Gong became so anti-government.

And I guess it never occured to you that believing in the CCP propaganda is not really that different from following a cult?
Whoever struck first, be it FLG or CCP is up to history's debate.

And what make Falung Gong more truthful than say, Scientology? Just because they are being outlawed in China does not make them more heroic or righteous. I don't believe in the CCP, but go to any major Chinatown in America and you will see FLG guys raising hell and handing out pamphlets all the time.

They have the dumbest evidence ever---pictures of men and women being harvested organs or brutally beaten in a concentration camp (in fact, a few are actually Nazi concentration camp photoshoped with Chinese men's face), and supposed atrocities pics condemning the CCP, yet every time an international investigation occurs, CCP somehow magically manage to hide every trace of atrocities better than Iraq's hid their magic nukes. So if there is no evidence, then how are these pictures, some at close range, taken?

Furthermore, Back in 2008 as some may recall, there was an Earthquake in China. In Flushing NYC, there was an effort to raise donation for earthquake victims. Yours truly was on site and donated $20 to a charity. Then the Gong men swarmed over and claimed CCP cause the Earthquake (lol) and/or CCP was Li Hong Zi's wrath (lol). It set off a riot.

Later, the FLG claimed the riot was an setup by Chinese embassy spies, yet somehow my then-girlfriend who is not even Chinese ended up as their poster girl (Labeled Chinese Agent) on Epoch Times...and when NYtimes cover the event, Epoch claimed NYtimes are a CCP mouthpiece.

So while I am not going to deny the possibility there are prosecution going on, including forced renunciation of their faith. But their so called Organ factories/systematic torture are just fantastic tales no more real than Scientology aliens. (Actually, FLG also claimed we are being ruled by evil aliens and only LHZ can save us all, look that up, unless you want to claim the Times magazine is a CCP front too)
__________________
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 01:37   Link #29670
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
And we don't crack down on Scientology just because novels written in 20th century is less believable than novels written thousands of years ago.

So no. Saying it's not any better than Scientology literally accomplishes nothing.
All it did was completely validate what ChainLegacy said right above.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 10:08   Link #29671
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
And we don't crack down on Scientology just because novels written in 20th century is less believable than novels written thousands of years ago.

So no. Saying it's not any better than Scientology literally accomplishes nothing.
All it did was completely validate what ChainLegacy said right above.
Ok, fine, just how much "evidence" exists about the FLG being genocides like Jews in a concentration camp? Like I said, it is the ultimate paradox. FLG comes with thousands of pictures of members their faith being chopped apart, yet every international investigation fail to produce evidence. The Chinese Gov must have better skills hiding dead bodies than the Iraq hiding their nukes.

It says something with Epoch times are most often used as sausage wraps at Chinese Supermarkets in NYC and Boston now days.

My own experience are not from CCP teaching (I left China long time ago after FLG started to warm up), but from odious actions by FLG folks that make every visit to Chinatown unpleasant (especially if I brought any girls who are white with me)
__________________
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 12:05   Link #29672
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Not a single person has made accusations or comparison to Jewish concentration camps.
Making absurd claims does you no good. In fact, it's quite counter productive to convince your points.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 12:59   Link #29673
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy
Putting that aside, I do recognize that there's probably some fear mongering going on with Western reports of many Chinese human rights issues and I'm always skeptical about how truthful things are. Nonetheless, I'm definitely sure there ARE human rights abuses going on, even if they are overplayed or over-focused.
Falun Gong members have their organs harvested. It just isn't well-known, and certainly not "over-focused". This has been investigated by non-FLG people and noted by US Congress. While the casualty rate so far is nowhere near as high as in the Holocaust the nature is similar.
__________________
Die Arbeit macht selig, denn die Arbeit macht frei
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 15:55   Link #29674
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Ok, nevermind. One.


^The above claim has not yet been proven, investigation never uncovered concrete indisputable evidences. Not saying it's impossible, but the inconsistencies and implausibility in many of the claims rendered it insufficient credibility.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 16:03   Link #29675
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Ok, nevermind. One.


^The above claim has not yet been proven, investigation never uncovered concrete indisputable evidences. Not saying it's impossible, but the inconsistencies and implausibility in many of the claims rendered it insufficient credibility.
Such as? The "not concrete" bit I can understand and is recognized by the report, since it's hard to actually get into China to prove/disprove the allegation, but everything else they looked at supports the conclusion.
__________________
Die Arbeit macht selig, denn die Arbeit macht frei
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 16:13   Link #29676
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PC...egations#Doubt

The numbers simply do not add up.
It doesn't help that they're relying on second-hand information, as well as lack of transparencies (thanks to PRC's insanely monitored information control...) leading to making logical deductions.

It seems the present report alone cannot suffice as a concrete evidence, and obviously PRC isn't gonna let international investigators take a crack at it.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 16:40   Link #29677
AnimeFan188
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Exclusive: 4 in 5 in US face near-poverty, no work:

"Four out of 5 U.S. adults struggle with joblessness, near-poverty or reliance on
welfare for at least parts of their lives, a sign of deteriorating economic security and
an elusive American dream.

Survey data exclusive to The Associated Press points to an increasingly globalized
U.S. economy, the widening gap between rich and poor, and the loss of
good-paying manufacturing jobs as reasons for the trend."

See:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclus...175906005.html
AnimeFan188 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 16:56   Link #29678
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PC...egations#Doubt

The numbers simply do not add up.
That's only if you take the supposition that a doctor (or doctors) cannot do thousands of organ removals per year to be likely. While it does make the allegation a little weaker, it is by no means a damning factor, especially since it is possible to do removals fairly quickly (ex: 15-20 minutes for corneas).

Quote:
It doesn't help that they're relying on second-hand information, as well as lack of transparencies (thanks to PRC's insanely monitored information control...) leading to making logical deductions.

It seems the present report alone cannot suffice as a concrete evidence, and obviously PRC isn't gonna let international investigators take a crack at it.
Well that's the thing; of course you can't get a "concrete" conclusion because it's China and you can't go and do a full investigation there. The report acknowledges this shortcoming and thus has a lengthy section detailing their methods of proof. They list out a large number of factors that make widespread organ harvesting likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by from section E of the report
We also considered prevention. What are the safeguards that would prevent this sort of activity from happening? If precautions are in place, we could conclude that it is less likely that the activity is happening. If they are not in place, then the possibility that the activity is happening increases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by from section H
Our conclusion comes not from any one single item of evidence, but rather the piecing together of all the evidence we have considered. Each portion of the evidence we have considered is, in itself, verifiable and, in most cases, incontestable. Put together, they paint a damning whole picture. It is their combination that has convinced us.
Between "proven" (positive) and "possible" (neutral), I'd say the allegations are most certainly "probable".
__________________
Die Arbeit macht selig, denn die Arbeit macht frei
LeoXiao is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 19:48   Link #29679
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Not a single person has made accusations or comparison to Jewish concentration camps.
Making absurd claims does you no good. In fact, it's quite counter productive to convince your points.
Actually, if you read my thread carefully, I did not accuse anyone here making the comparison, however, if you happened to live near Chinatown NYC (at least late as 2008, I left NYC between 08 and 13, just came back), you will often see various very hardcore CCP communist = Nazi posters and some highly graphical image of people being cut open, sliced apart. Some of those poster actually have a strong resemblance to communist propaganda slogans (back in the 80s).

If you happen to read Epoch Times, the FLG Newspaper, you would think China must be hell on Earth.

So here is the paradox. If all those images were real and FLG were telling the truth, why is it no one can find conclusive evidence?

Just because some people on this board have a hard on against China, does not mean bad about China are real.

Here is one of the so called China=Nazi examples.
__________________
ArchmageXin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-07-28, 21:15   Link #29680
Tom Bombadil
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
^ minor correction. Back in 80s, China was OK (Some may even argue that it was more "free" then). It was 60s and 70s that things really went nuts.

By the way, I think we pretty much agree that there is a group of people who believes in crazy things. To think that nobody will take advantage of their blind devotion either economically or in some other ways is kind of naivety that akin to stupidity.
__________________
Tom Bombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
current affairs, discussion, international, news

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.