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Old 2013-08-15, 16:22   Link #30021
AnimeFan188
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Divers enter Indian submarine where 18 sailors feared dead following explosion,
fire (w/video):


"Despite hours of searching the dark, muddy water inside a submarine crippled by twin
explosions, Indian navy divers have yet to find the 18 sailors feared dead there,
possibly because the heat of the blasts melted some hatches shut, the navy said
Thursday.

There has been no word from the sailors — or even a knock on the submarine’s hull —
since the explosions shot huge fireballs into the sky over a Mumbai navy base
Wednesday morning."

See:

http://www.vancouverdesi.com/news/in...-video/608039/
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:35   Link #30022
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
It's political move and slightly paranoid on their part (the evil imperial Japan strike back!!). As the South East Asia also suffer as much but they rarely were that outspoken
It's not slightly paranoid, it is purely cuntish IMO.

I'm not believer in Shinto religion, but I understand the concept of wishing souls to rest in peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
First of all, China has the right to talk, thank you very much. What is between China and its people (C.Rev) is apple and oranges to what happened between Japan and China.

Or South Korea and Japan (so anything SK did that disqualify their outrage as well?), Or North Korea with Japan. And it look like there was a protest or two in Taiwan yesterday as well.

Second question is, who are you to judge when should someone move on? massacre like this can go on for years, if not centuries. Do you think the Jews to accept a Shrine to Nazi war Criminals? After all, it was just a holocaust, there were some gas chambers and some bullets fired, we should all go lalala move on
Jesus bloody wept.

That shrine has been there long before the war and people still go there to pay respect to the dead. Why would it be wrong for a Japanese politician to go there while it is OK for the average citizen of any country (including Japanese citizens) to give offerings and pray for the dead at that shrine? If you have issues with the whole subject matter, fly there and go have a scrap with the high priests who decide who is to be enshrined or not.

And guess what: the Dalai-Lama (a man of peace) went to that shrine in 1981. Did he ever mean to show the middle finger to China by going there? I don't think he ever had that in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That is because the current generation had enough of that "us vs them" mentality.

Those nationalist dogs can go bite the dust and stop riling up emotions over matters like this. Foot soldiers die in the war, the least we can do is let them rest in peace for the mistakes some egoistical retard sent them to make; even your enemies, regardless of how atrocious they have been, has that right to respect their dead. So do yours.
This. The people who hold on to old grudges, old and young, can just all feck off for all that I care. And about all the outrage about Japanese politicians merely exercising their right of religion, those who cry wolf can shove their cries up their bollocks.
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:45   Link #30023
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Jesus bloody wept.

That shrine has been there long before the war and people still go there to pay respect to the dead. Why would it be wrong for a Japanese politician to go there while it is OK for the average citizen of any country (including Japanese citizens) to give offerings and pray for the dead at that shrine? If you have issues with the whole subject matter, fly there and go have a scrap with the high priests who decide who is to be enshrined or not.
I consider worshipping at Yasukuni with its current occupants as wrong. That's why I never worshipped there despite various reasons why I should.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
And guess what: the Dalai-Lama (a man of peace) went to that shrine in 1981. Did he ever mean to show the middle finger to China by going there? I don't think he ever had that in mind.
He isn't the most culturally acknowledgable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
This. The people who hold on to old grudges, old and young, can just all feck off for all that I care. And about all the outrage about Japanese politicians merely exercising their right of religion, those who cry wolf can shove their cries up their bollocks.
Outsiders should just leave themselves out of issues they have no understanding of.
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:48   Link #30024
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Outsiders should just leave themselves out of issues they have no understanding of.
Wanna have a scrap with me or what?

Every time I see you write anything, you piss off other people here especially because they're not Japanese like you.
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:56   Link #30025
Seitsuki
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I really think this should stop here. Please.
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:56   Link #30026
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Wanna have a scrap with me or what?

Every time I see you write anything, you piss off other people.
Yes, because those politicians deliberately play the "freedom of religion card" instead of being sincere about it. When even the Tenno refrains from worshipping due to the politically loaded meaning the shrine has, you think I would let someone who has no understanding of the issue at all coming in saying something that would only play right into the hands of hypocrites?

Sorry, but at least know what you're writing about before writing. That's all I have to say to you on this matter.
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Old 2013-08-15, 16:57   Link #30027
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post

Those nationalist dogs can go bite the dust and stop riling up emotions over matters like this. Foot soldiers die in the war, the least we can do is let them rest in peace for the mistakes some egoistical retard sent them to make; even your enemies, regardless of how atrocious they have been, has that right to respect their dead. So do yours.
From my understanding, it's not the foot soldiers that's causing controversy. The shrine includes the higher-ups(the ones you call "egoistical retards") of Imperial Army who did not die on battlefield, whether they be executed later or died of natural cause.

While I would agree that the China side's being hypocritical, I don't consider their reaction unnatural (though they certainly did overreact, to put it mildly, at rioting several months ago). Anyway, I am not trying to make excuse for China in particular, I know the CCP continuously fuel their people of anti-Japanism, but I just want to say that if the current German Chancellor visits a shrine for the Nazi higher-ups, I am pretty sure the Jewish's reaction would be similar. For reference, some of the most significant Nazi higher-ups didn't have a proper marked grave either.

Last edited by maplehurry; 2013-08-15 at 18:01.
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Old 2013-08-15, 17:00   Link #30028
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
From my understanding, it's not the foot soldiers that's causing controversy. The shrine includes the higher-ups of Imperial Army who did not die on battlefield, whether they be executed later or died by natural cause.
The main issue is the enshrinement of the Class A criminals. The Showa Tenno was so disgusted by the move that he stopped going to Yasukuni.

Of course, there are other issues related to the far right, but the Class A criminals are the main trigger.
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Old 2013-08-15, 17:08   Link #30029
KiraYamatoFan
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Then Hirohito should have given a piece of his mind to the shrine's priests at the time and exerted his authority on this matter. I thought the Emperor was the supreme governor of the Shinto religion as much as the Monarch of Britain is also the supreme governor of the Anglican Church standing above the Archbishop of Canterbury, no?

The priests are the only ones who deserve a slap behind their heads here. If anyone has a problem with the enshrinement, then I agree to blame the priests on any day.
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Old 2013-08-15, 17:11   Link #30030
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Then Hirohito should have given a piece of his mind to the shrine's priests at the time and exerted his authority on this matter. I thought the Emperor was the supreme governor of the Shinto religion as much as the Monarch of Britain is also the supreme governor of the Anglican Church standing above the Archbishop of Canterbury, no?
That was before 1945. Things changed a bit with the current constitution.

Exactly why I'm asking you to at least know what you're talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
The priests are the only ones who deserve a slap behind their heads here. If anyone has a problem with the enshrinement, then I agree to blame the priests on any day.
The priest didn't make the move without support from the politicians who are now worshipping there. It's basically a mafia helping each other out.
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Old 2013-08-15, 17:28   Link #30031
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Yes, because those politicians deliberately play the "freedom of religion card" instead of being sincere about it.
Why do you think these politicians are attending this particular shrine then?

I'm sure we all recognize that modern Japan is radically different from WWII-era Japan.
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Old 2013-08-15, 17:30   Link #30032
Terrestrial Dream
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If the emperor of Japan decides not go, then I think it is aright Japanese politicians to avoid the shrine.

One thing I find it ironic in some of statements here, you guys talk about nationalist in Korea or China, but nationalist in Japan are stirring this issue in the first place.
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Old 2013-08-15, 17:32   Link #30033
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Why do you think these politicians are attending this particular shrine then?
To get votes from the conservatives who believe the war was never truly lost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm sure we all recognize that modern Japan is radically different from WWII-era Japan.
Structure is radically different, but those in power are not. Heck, even my family would be among those hypocrites if they weren't a bit enlightened compared to most.
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Old 2013-08-15, 17:40   Link #30034
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Thank you for your answer, Sumeragi. I'd write more, but my mind is currently blown.
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Old 2013-08-15, 18:42   Link #30035
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...media/2651715/

Israel pay students to post pro Israel message on social media.

I thought only evil communist China do it . What is 5 mao translate to Israeli currency?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Outsiders should just leave themselves out of issues they have no understanding of.
Yeah, ArchmageXin. Outsiders should just leave themselves out of issues they have no understanding of

Edit: since this might be a bit obtuse, I'll clarify that this message was a slight against ArchmageXin's position as well as Sumeragi's stance of trying to stop conversation by telling people they don't know anything. Please continue to write about things you don't know about, otherwise we'd have no discussion and we wouldn't get any exchanges of ideas and information. Thanks.
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Old 2013-08-15, 18:50   Link #30036
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The main issue is the enshrinement of the Class A criminals. The Showa Tenno was so disgusted by the move that he stopped going to Yasukuni.

Of course, there are other issues related to the far right, but the Class A criminals are the main trigger.
I still see no difference there. The leaders might get the blame, but plenty of lower rank soldiers are those who physically committed the atrocities. Just because we don't know what their names were doesn't make them less guilty. So since I don't care for symbolism, only the fact that there probably are far more actual war criminals named in the shrine than the infamous leaders, I don't see the presence of military leaders in the shine as a sticking point.

It's just my opinion of course. Maybe I am just too practical-minded.
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Old 2013-08-15, 19:02   Link #30037
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I still see no difference there. The leaders might get the blame, but plenty of lower rank soldiers are those who physically committed the atrocities. Just because we don't know what their names were doesn't make them less guilty. So since I don't care for symbolism, only the fact that there probably are far more actual war criminals named in the shrine than the infamous leaders, I don't see the presence of military leaders in the shine as a sticking point.

It's just my opinion of course. Maybe I am just too practical-minded.
Well, the soldiers wouldn't be there without the approval of those leaders starting wars...

Alot of killings and rapes happened without direct orders of higher-ups. But even more killings happened because of direct orders of these higher-ups.

The ones who gave order for Pearl Harbor without declaration of war...

The ones responsible for delaying/refusing to surrender...

The ones responsible for sending false msg to the Japanese populace that the Caucasian were monsters to keep them fighting until death without surrender...
(ok, there's propaganda from both sides, but it's clear some of these Imperial higher-ups didn't care about the lives of their people...)

The ones who gave the approval for executing suspected insurgent after their arrest, even though it doesn't take anything for anyone to become a suspect.

There's also the human experimentation, which is pretty gruesome, though I suppose it wouldn't particularly stand out given how brutal ww2 as a whole was.

Last edited by maplehurry; 2013-08-15 at 19:35.
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Old 2013-08-15, 19:18   Link #30038
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I still see no difference there. The leaders might get the blame, but plenty of lower rank soldiers are those who physically committed the atrocities. Just because we don't know what their names were doesn't make them less guilty. So since I don't care for symbolism, only the fact that there probably are far more actual war criminals named in the shrine than the infamous leaders, I don't see the presence of military leaders in the shine as a sticking point.

It's just my opinion of course. Maybe I am just too practical-minded.
There are war criminals everywhere, even on the Allies' side. When the Japanese left there were plenty of lynching in SEA, especially in Malaysia and Singapore; and I am sure Lai Teck isn't the only double agent that go away scot-free when their masters are prosecuted.

Then again, these people are already dead. Sons should not inherit the sins of their fathers. Let them rest in peace; they are still human. I wouldn't be surprised if anyone here would perform grisly psyops as a military leader. The Gurkhas behead Japanese soldiers head-on during "counter-banzai" charges (pun unintended), but why are they all war heroes despite their explicit maiming of their enemies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Edit: since this might be a bit obtuse, I'll clarify that this message was a slight against ArchmageXin's position as well as Sumeragi's stance of trying to stop conversation by telling people they don't know anything. Please continue to write about things you don't know about, otherwise we'd have no discussion and we wouldn't get any exchanges of ideas and information. Thanks.
QFT, and just to add, Knowledge =! Understanding. Has anyone thought of taking the stuff you have been taught and ripping them apart to analyse?

If thinking out of textbook and "knowledge" is really that difficult then donate your braincells to someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
If the emperor of Japan decides not go, then I think it is aright Japanese politicians to avoid the shrine.

One thing I find it ironic in some of statements here, you guys talk about nationalist in Korea or China, but nationalist in Japan are stirring this issue in the first place.
That is why they are called politicians. They do it to for elections.

One thing the Americans should have help exported to Asia is the Pakistani/Indian style of "democratic politics", where assassins are hired to kill their opponents. With the advent of Web 2.0 in new media, I am sure the different sides of supporters would enjoy the live celebrity deathmatches to shoot their way to their own cabinet (metaphor intended, literally).
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-08-15 at 19:29.
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Old 2013-08-15, 20:29   Link #30039
GreyZone
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The "old wounds" seem to be a huge issue in the far east... this seems like an up to eleven version of the whole "Dot Pixis from the shingeki no kyojin anime/ manga is based on a Japanease General from WW2 times and Koreans send death threats to the Manga author"
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Old 2013-08-15, 21:06   Link #30040
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
The "old wounds" seem to be a huge issue in the far east... this seems like an up to eleven version of the whole "Dot Pixis from the shingeki no kyojin anime/ manga is based on a Japanease General from WW2 times and Koreans send death threats to the Manga author"
I would say his young look in wiki certainly stands out in an anime'ish sort of way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post

One thing I find it ironic in some of statements here, you guys talk about nationalist in Korea or China, but nationalist in Japan are stirring this issue in the first place.
The irony is that these nationalists secretly enjoy the companies of each others. One can hardly exist without the others.
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