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Old 2013-08-23, 22:38   Link #30201
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Yes, you haven't read the article properly. Try the last half.
To hell with what that civilian attorney said about his first 38 years of life! She's completely out of her depth here. If he knew he was in trouble, he would have asked for a discharge on whatever ground he could come up with and then recycle himself into PMCs or something else. Yet he did fuck all, he went back there, and he is responsible for killing 16 civilians and then burning the bodies. There was absolutely zero excuse for that.

Feel compassionate about his case if you want, but I won't. For any serviceman, nothing is worth more of a capital punishment than killing children when your job is not only to fight a war, but also to represent your country as some sort of ambassador.
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Old 2013-08-23, 22:49   Link #30202
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
To hell with what that civilian attorney said about his first 38 years of life! She's completely out of her depth here. If he knew he was in trouble, he would have asked for a discharge on whatever ground he could come up with and then recycle himself into PMCs or something else. Yet he did fuck all, he went back there, and he is responsible for killing 16 civilians and then burning the bodies. There was absolutely zero excuse for that.

Feel compassionate about his case if you want, but I won't. For any serviceman, nothing is worth more of a capital punishment than killing children when your job is not only to fight a war, but also to represent your country as some sort of ambassador.
Exactly the difference between civilians who haven't been in war and those who are scarred. Also, if you think it's easy to just get a discharge and join some PMC or security company, you're definitely out of your depth when concerning reality.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:08   Link #30203
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
That's it? I thought the guy would get shot to death for what he did there.
I'm 14, and I love revenge fantasies.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:19   Link #30204
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
To hell with what that civilian attorney said about his first 38 years of life! She's completely out of her depth here. If he knew he was in trouble, he would have asked for a discharge on whatever ground he could come up with and then recycle himself into PMCs or something else. Yet he did fuck all, he went back there, and he is responsible for killing 16 civilians and then burning the bodies. There was absolutely zero excuse for that.

Feel compassionate about his case if you want, but I won't. For any serviceman, nothing is worth more of a capital punishment than killing children when your job is not only to fight a war, but also to represent your country as some sort of ambassador.
You're not very knowledgeable in human psychology are you?
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:28   Link #30205
Ridwan
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There's also this bigger problem such as US occupation there in the first place, but that is a very tired topic by now.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:36   Link #30206
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
You're not very knowledgeable in human psychology are you?
What the hell does it have to do? For the record, United Kingdom, Italy, France, Germany, Canada, Australia, Poland, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Australia and other countries sent their troops into hostile areas at one point or another. Some of those countries sent contingents for 2-3 tours in Afghanistan and yet I've not seen one of them traumatized nor unstable enough to kill 16 civilians and then burn the bodies in one go.

All I say is that this guy should have been used as an example of a punishment for something that is exactly what not to do as a serviceman. I think it's not too much asked considering how this thing was as big as the My Lai Massacre.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:37   Link #30207
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
All I say is that this guy should have been used as an example of a punishment for something that is exactly what not to do as a serviceman. I think it's not too much asked considering how this thing was as big as the My Lai Massacre.
It's not too much to ask in your imagination that is far removed from reality.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:45   Link #30208
Seitsuki
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I think moving on would be a good idea.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:49   Link #30209
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It's not too much to ask in your imagination that is far removed from reality.
Using mental illness as an excuse to escape maximum punishment is what's removed from the reality as much as you are out of reality. I've seen too many murderers getting away from bearing the full responsibility and consequent punishment of their actions just because of that silly excuse. You tell me: what would have happened in the long term if that soldier was found convicted with death penalty?

Has no one learned from what happened at My Lai in order to avoid seeing civilians being massacred again? I don't talk about difference in numbers here; I talk about the harm this fool has caused both to public opinion both in the US and in Afghanistan as a result.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:57   Link #30210
Demi.
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Life in prison, you may as well be dead.

What would your opinion be if it was done by a citizen in a country that does not enforce capital punishment?
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:59   Link #30211
Ridwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Using mental illness as an excuse to escape maximum punishment is what's removed from the reality as much as you are out of reality. I've seen too many murders getting away from bearing the full responsibility and consequent punishment of their actions just because of that silly excuse. You tell me: what would have happened in the long term if that soldier was found convicted with death penalty?

Has no one learned from what happened at My Lai in order to avoid seeing civilians being massacred again? I don't talk about difference in numbers here; I talk about the harm this fool has caused both to public opinion both in the US and in Afghanistan as a result.
I really would lower my respect towards whoever grants you the most slightly invested respond.
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Old 2013-08-24, 00:01   Link #30212
KiraYamatoFan
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
What would your opinion be if it was done by a citizen in a country that does not enforce capital punishment?
Even if it wasn't the case, I would expect nothing short of the harshest penalty there is to the military code of the country he belongs. The fact that he was not branded the top punishment available because he pleaded guilty is what infuriates me in this case. I read a number of comments about the verdict and, trust me, there are many people who are not very happy with it. After all, it is the worst slaughtering of civilians by one or more US servicemen on the ground since Vietnam.
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Old 2013-08-24, 00:04   Link #30213
Traece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Using mental illness as an excuse to escape maximum punishment is what's removed from the reality as much as you are out of reality. I've seen too many murderers getting away from bearing the full responsibility and consequent punishment of their actions just because of that silly excuse. You tell me: what would have happened in the long term if that soldier was found convicted with death penalty?
Human psychology has a great deal to do with this discussion. More importantly, the fact that you seem to lack even the slightest understanding in how a brain works and even more so that you don't care, tells enough of the story here.

It never ceases to be pathetic, seeing someone attempt to pass some judgement on another person without even so much as an attempt to consider that person.

What you want is for your own desires to be fulfilled. Not justice. Don't delude yourself. The U.S. justice system is already plenty warped because of such simpleminded revenge-seeking. I recommend you drop it and move on, rather than touting your own agendas.
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Old 2013-08-24, 00:15   Link #30214
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traece View Post
Human psychology has a great deal to do with this discussion. More importantly, the fact that you seem to lack even the slightest understanding in how a brain works and even more so that you don't care, tells enough of the story here.

It never ceases to be pathetic, seeing someone attempt to pass some judgement on another person without even so much as an attempt to consider that person.

What you want is for your own desires to be fulfilled. Not justice. Don't delude yourself. The U.S. justice system is already plenty warped because of such simpleminded revenge-seeking. I recommend you drop it and move on, rather than touting your own agendas.
And because political repercussions don't count in the equation as well? From what I read, he just gave up therapy instead of trying harder; that was cowardice in itself to give up. How he got cleared by the psychiatrist, I dunno. What has been done is done. Now, how do you think that will reflect on the system?

Before you lecture me, let me tell you that I have family members and friends in the Armed Forces. Some of them served over there. No matter how much stress they endured, it was always out of the question to forget that badly what the mission is about. Then what is the excuse? That Canadian military psychiatrists work better than American military psychiatrists?

Last paragraph, answer me straight if you look so good: what would have been the repercussions on other soldiers if he was found guilty and charged with death penalty? That is the big question that I want an answer from those who see nothing wrong with life imprisonment instead of what was existing above in the book.

You're the one who should bugger off here.
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Old 2013-08-24, 00:25   Link #30215
MeoTwister5
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The hate is strong in this one.

Gandhi was right. The world just goes blind. Revenge =/= justice and it doesn't take a college grad to realize that the moment we start executing everyone we feel strongly against without knowing how or why a mind works, when every mind is unique with its own set of processes, then we might as well give up on human understanding and put everyone accused of a heinous crime to the firing squad.

And as someone who has worked on psych patients including one convicted of homicide, well, the more I realize how terrifying it can be when you realize how much you sometimes can't even control your own will.

Which is ironic because I'm pro death penalty, and I want this man to be shot if it is proven that he did so with full and complete knowledge and control of his actions.
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Old 2013-08-24, 00:32   Link #30216
Traece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Last paragraph, answer me straight if you look so good: what would have been the repercussions on other soldiers if he was found guilty and charged with death penalty? That is the big question that I want an answer from those who see nothing wrong with life imprisonment instead of what was existing above in the book.
From what I've read, you want him dead yes? You think that spending his whole life in prison is an incorrect judgement and that because he didn't receive the highest penalty that can be offered by the system, death, a great injustice has been done?

Do you know the difference between life and death? The difference between a life of living punished for the crimes you've committed, and the loss of life?

I can tell you now that one of those is completely meaningless. That's why it's revenge seeking. Out of sight, out of mind. Because these crimes that didn't affect us are so horrid that we must remove the perpetrator so that we may feel better about things. No need to seek justice when we can sweep it under the rug quickly, right?
Quote:
You're the one who should bugger off here.
I don't like to bugger off. Mainly because of the whole reading comprehension thing.
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Old 2013-08-24, 00:54   Link #30217
Mr Hat and Clogs
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This is just my personal belief, but I always found execution to be an odd punishment, to me it's more like a combination of revenge and washing your hands of the situation.

Executing someone makes the victims party happy, and while the person being executed may not want it the fact is that after it's done what exactly is being punished at that point the individual is dead they don't (can't) care anymore, essentially it's just releasing them from the guilt and burden of punishment*, and the victims family receives perceived 'justice' on a primal level.


* Yeah, I'm aware there are also true crazies out there that just flat out don't care though.
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Old 2013-08-24, 00:57   Link #30218
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
If he knew he was in trouble, he would have asked for a discharge on whatever ground he could come up with and then recycle himself into PMCs or something else. Yet he did fuck all, he went back there, and he is responsible for killing 16 civilians and then burning the bodies. There was absolutely zero excuse for that.
One does not "ask" to be discharged, nor is seeking to be discharged for mental illness/PTSD something that is looked upon favorably (the stigma remains very strong, both in and outside of the services). This is an ongoing issue that continues to affect the entire system. Many people who needs help doesn't seek help, and those that do, the help is often not there.

The bit about recycling into a PMC on the other hand is just pure nonsense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
What the hell does it have to do? For the record, United Kingdom, Italy, France, Germany, Canada, Australia, Poland, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Australia and other countries sent their troops into hostile areas at one point or another. Some of those countries sent contingents for 2-3 tours in Afghanistan and yet I've not seen one of them traumatized nor unstable enough to kill 16 civilians and then burn the bodies in one go.
Not to play down other nation's contribution, but you may want to compare the number of troops from the US and those countries, the overall operation tempo and numbers of multiple deployments also doesn't compare.

Quote:
All I say is that this guy should have been used as an example of a punishment for something that is exactly what not to do as a serviceman. I think it's not too much asked considering how this thing was as big as the My Lai Massacre.
I'm not sure you realize how bad that actually sounds, which is to use an execution to make a rather pointless political/policy point, as anyone who isn't nuts in the head would already know, and those who are nuts... well, they're probably not going to listen to what you want to say anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Using mental illness as an excuse to escape maximum punishment is what's removed from the reality as much as you are out of reality. I've seen too many murderers getting away from bearing the full responsibility and consequent punishment of their actions just because of that silly excuse. You tell me: what would have happened in the long term if that soldier was found convicted with death penalty?
I'm not a fan of the insanity defense, but I do recognize the legal necessity for its existence. That being said, unlike what you've implied, the insanity defense is actually one of the most difficult one to pull off in a trial, is rarely attempted (often as a last-ditch resort), and rarer still is when it is successful.

As for the repercussion, other than the obligatory and likely gigantic political drama, is the same as most other death penalty cases - mandatory, and likely decades-long appeal process that costs a shit ton of money.

Quote:
Has no one learned from what happened at My Lai in order to avoid seeing civilians being massacred again? I don't talk about difference in numbers here; I talk about the harm this fool has caused both to public opinion both in the US and in Afghanistan as a result.
And his execution or lack thereof would have little effect to that end. People who aren't nuts already knows it's wrong and won't do it, those that are... well, yea.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
From what I read, he just gave up therapy instead of trying harder; that was cowardice in itself to give up. How he got cleared by the psychiatrist, I dunno. What has been done is done. Now, how do you think that will reflect on the system?
As someone who knows too many sufferers of PTSD who ended up taking their own life, I kindly suggest you to stuff it. And how it reflects on the system? I would hope it reflects that the system is fucking shitty and terrible and broke, because it is.

Quote:
Before you lecture me, let me tell you that I have family members and friends in the Armed Forces. Some of them served over there. No matter how much stress they endured, it was always out of the question to forget that badly what the mission is about. Then what is the excuse? That Canadian military psychiatrists work better than American military psychiatrists?
Great, they were there, you weren't, so please refrain from talking as if you know what it is like. Everyone reacts and copes in different ways, and some... just can't, and eventually they break.

Quote:
Last paragraph, answer me straight if you look so good: what would have been the repercussions on other soldiers if he was found guilty and charged with death penalty? That is the big question that I want an answer from those who see nothing wrong with life imprisonment instead of what was existing above in the book.
Read above.
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Old 2013-08-24, 02:26   Link #30219
JokerD
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N. Korea angry as Switzerland blocks ski lift deal

NK reaction:
Quote:
"This is a wanton violation of the UN Charter clarifying that sanctions should not impose sufferings and damage on the peaceful existence and activities of mankind and the people in relevant countries," it said.
Right...
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Old 2013-08-24, 03:31   Link #30220
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Lols.... Poor Big Fat Kimy...
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