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Old 2013-08-26, 07:22   Link #30281
kuroishinigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
And people freak out over the American government trawling phone logs for metadata. Private companies from Google to Facebook to Twitter already know a lot more about you than the government does. If you can't even trust your government to do the right thing, how much more can you trust profit-driven corporations?
Exactly my qualm with the whole PRISM thing. The thing I most afraid about the whole spying thing is if the US government(or maybe the politician) decide to sell the data to private company for their own personal gain, and then I thought that we already did that voluntarily, so how much worse could it be
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Old 2013-08-26, 13:19   Link #30282
serenade_beta
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Why is that surprising? There are plenty of military guys (mostly ex though) in this forum as well
Well yeah, true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
How many people would actually change it?

I have people here who actually type in credit card numbers to shop online on IPads in full public view. At least use something smaller like a smartphone.
I'd change it. I personally saw a post leaking a credit card number on one of the threads. Scary stuff, really.
The person who posted the info is probably in big trouble too, though.
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Old 2013-08-26, 14:25   Link #30283
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
And people freak out over the American government trawling phone logs for metadata. Private companies from Google to Facebook to Twitter already know a lot more about you than the government does. If you can't even trust your government to do the right thing, how much more can you trust profit-driven corporations?
Companies can't put you in prison or take your personal property, but the government can. As a US federal judge once said, anyone and everyone are guilty of breaking some law at some point in their lives... if you really want to convict someone (anyone) of a crime, no matter how law-abiding they think they have been, you can.

By comparison, what's the worst that Google would do to me? More appropriately, what's the worst that they could do that wouldn't give me and other customers grounds to file a lawsuit against them? You can sue the government, but good luck with that. Simply suing the government also won't return confiscated property or immediately get you out of prison.
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Old 2013-08-26, 15:03   Link #30284
Xellos-_^
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the worst any private company can do to me is fill my inbox with more spam.
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Old 2013-08-26, 15:05   Link #30285
Anh_Minh
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The worst they can do is send me an ad that I won't be able to resist for some kind of addictive product resulting in some kind of chronic spending for stupid shit.
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Old 2013-08-26, 16:01   Link #30286
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Companies can't put you in prison or take your personal property, but the government can. As a US federal judge once said, anyone and everyone are guilty of breaking some law at some point in their lives... if you really want to convict someone (anyone) of a crime, no matter how law-abiding they think they have been, you can.

By comparison, what's the worst that Google would do to me? More appropriately, what's the worst that they could do that wouldn't give me and other customers grounds to file a lawsuit against them? You can sue the government, but good luck with that. Simply suing the government also won't return confiscated property or immediately get you out of prison.
I think you severely underestimate the control corporations (or rather, the money that corporations have) have over the political and social systems. A lot of policies, be they food, energy, copyright, or whatever, are all the result of external and internal pressures on government and society.

Good luck suing a major corporation. Even the government is often unsuccessful at getting anything but some settlements. Most of the culprits don't go to jail, and if they do it's for a rather short period. People like Madoff are the exception, not the rule. Suing corporations won't get property back or more favorable returns on settlements/contracts either. There are plenty of people who have dealt with the banking system over the last few years (including myself) who can attest to this.

Private prisons bribe justice officials so that they can get and retain populations that taxpayers end up paying for. Lawyer careers are based on conviction rates, not quality of justice. The line between military, police, and mercenary are blending at faster and faster rates.

Can the government blackmail you with NSA info? Absolutely. But the gatekeepers of that information, companies like Google and Facebook, who basically know every paper trail and digital footprint you leave behind, can use that information to manipulate people on a far more fundamental level than ruining a political career or activist movement. Did you know that the average American child can recognize most major brands by the time they're 3 years old? It's not always favorable recognition, but that's incredibly powerful. They have more awareness of corporate products than they do of their national or ethnic backgrounds before they've even hit school age.

This isn't to paint some Machiavellian Illuminati picture, it's just reality. A lot of people are complicit on both sides not out of some scheme to take over and control the world, but because of slippery slopes like fear of losing money, or freedom, or power, or even family and loved ones. There's moral reasons, emotional ones, greed, and so on. It's not really any one particular thing that creates problems, which is also why they are so difficult to understand and solve. But it is very convenient, especially for narrative, to paint a face on our problems when we don't really know or understand what actually causes them.
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Old 2013-08-26, 16:12   Link #30287
Xellos-_^
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Nearly every weekend morning for six years, church groups have passed out free biscuits and coffee to the homeless at Moore Square in downtown Raleigh, N.C. This Saturday at 9 a.m., when volunteers from Love Wins Ministries arrived, 100 sausage biscuits and coffee carafes in hand, Raleigh police officers met them on the sidewalk and threatened to arrest them if they passed out the food.
A city ordinance, officers said, banned food distribution in public parks.


http://swampland.time.com/2013/08/26...ding-homeless/

so much for being a christian state.
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Old 2013-08-26, 17:08   Link #30288
TooPurePureBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
so much for being a christian state.
I wonder how many showers those officers had to take before they felt good about following those orders.
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Old 2013-08-26, 17:44   Link #30289
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
No no by go get it changed, I mean, call your banks and freeze the card.
Enough info got leaked with the card to be abused easily.
That is indeed the correct course of action. Everyone affected should cancel their cards ASAP so they don't get any surprises down the road.
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Old 2013-08-26, 17:57   Link #30290
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I think you severely underestimate the control corporations (or rather, the money that corporations have) have over the political and social systems. A lot of policies, be they food, energy, copyright, or whatever, are all the result of external and internal pressures on government and society.
I don't disagree, but TinyRedLeaf was asking why people care more about the government knowing things than corporations. The short answer is that the government has the authority to do very bad things to you practically on a whim, whereas corporations can't screw over your entire life even if they wanted to. Banks and credit agencies are a possible exception.

Further, consider the motivations. What does a corporation want? Money. When it comes to data collection, most companies use the data gathered on you as a product to be sold to other companies. This results in more spam and better-targeted advertisements. I'm going to confess to not being very imaginative with what else they do with the information, but that's OK because screwing over customers isn't a good way to get money. (The RIAA and MPAA represent exceptions to this.)

I don't deny that companies exert social changes that favor themselves. However, in keeping with the question of why people care more about the information that the government has vs. corporations, societal change wrought by corporations doesn't have quite the same shock factor as being hauled away by police as the FBI rifles through your house.

By comparison, what does the government want? Who knows? That's subject to change depending on the people in it and the world events that influence them. We know that a corporation has one basic goal, but the goal(s) of the government are dynamic. It could be benign this year, and malicious in another election cycle.

There's also historical precedent. When has a corporation ever used information held on customers to deprive them of property, liberty, or life? I'm sure it's happened before, but I'm guessing you're going to have to dig. I'll also guess (but I wouldn't bet money on it) that fairly few people were affected. By comparison, when has a government ever used information for those purposes? I'm guessing that everyone reading this had at least three examples immediately pop into their minds, and these affected hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of individuals.

I'm going to confess ignorance to a lot of corporate activity beyond the technological and environmental sectors. If anyone wants to post some examples to show why I should be a lot more upset about corporations' collection of data, then please do. I won't argue it; I'd appreciate being better-informed about this area.
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Old 2013-08-26, 17:59   Link #30291
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
There's also historical precedent. When has a corporation ever used information held on customers to deprive them of property, liberty, or life? I'm sure it's happened before, but I'm guessing you're going to have to dig. I'll also guess that fairly few people were affected. By comparison, when has a government ever used information for those purposes? I'm guessing that everyone reading this had at least three examples immediately pop into their minds, and these affected hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of individuals.
The Gilded Age of the United States and the 1970's ROK economical development.


Frankly, all I'm seeing is that a greater ignorance of what apparently looks transparent (corporations) make people misjudge a more transparent entity (government).
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Old 2013-08-26, 18:07   Link #30292
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The Gilded Age of the United States and the 1970's ROK economical development.
Intriguing. I'd ask that you expand a bit on these, though. As far as the Gilded Age of the USA, corporations treated their employees poorly but I am not aware of any corporation going out of its way to ruin any of their customers. I don't know that they went out of their way to ruin their employees, either; there just weren't any labor restrictions. What examples are you thinking of? As for the 1970's in Korea, I'm not familiar with it. Can you explain further?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Frankly, all I'm seeing is that a greater ignorance of what apparently looks transparent (corporations) make people misjudge a more transparent entity (government).
People don't expect corporations to be transparent. Or I should say, I haven't met anyone who expects that. Again, the issue is that there aren't any clear-cut cases where a corporation abused information that it held in order to harm an individual. The same cannot be said of the (American) government.
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Old 2013-08-26, 18:16   Link #30293
ganbaru
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Fukushima operator to seek foreign advice on toxic water
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97P03620130826

Analysis: Gulf Islamists irked as monarchs back Egypt's generals
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97P0LL20130826
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Old 2013-08-26, 19:46   Link #30294
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Frankly, all I'm seeing is that a greater ignorance of what apparently looks transparent (corporations) make people misjudge a more transparent entity (government).
the issue with the government at least pertaining to the US government. Since the Vietnam War, Pentagon papers, Watergate, War on Drugs, CIA cold war tactics and 30+ years of continuous assault by republican-libertarians that the government is the problem has eroded trust in government. This isn't a case of trusting corporations over government. This is a case of trusting neither government or corporations.
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Old 2013-08-26, 22:05   Link #30295
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
There's also historical precedent. When has a corporation ever used information held on customers to deprive them of property, liberty, or life? I'm sure it's happened before, but I'm guessing you're going to have to dig. I'll also guess (but I wouldn't bet money on it) that fairly few people were affected. By comparison, when has a government ever used information for those purposes? I'm guessing that everyone reading this had at least three examples immediately pop into their minds, and these affected hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of individuals.
Supposedly, the idea is that one can avoid interacting with a corporation. If a business is to lack regard for privacy, I suppose one could avoid it.

The other logic is that the government on the other hand can coerce you in ways businesses can't by use of force. You can't ignore what the government says unless you want to leave the country... and you'd still be liable for taxes for many years to come.

However, reality is unfortunately not as simple. Before the war on monoplies began, it became very feasible for companies to establish them if they were big enough and basically hold people hostage if they controlled a valuable resource. Oil, railroads, etc. And workers could theoretically not work for them, but without a proper check, there really wasn't viable alternatives at times. Sure, they may not be directly aiming to ruin people's lives, but their actions end up on the same results. Yes, there may be no equivalent to the likes of Hitler and Stalin that did use it to purge their enemies, but in the end power corrupts, regardless it be money or power.

And of course, the government doesn't just act alone. What happens when the government decides to work with certain businesses that don't respect privacy as much and incentivizes such behavior? Given the pull that the corporations can have over government, I don't think these things are always mutually exclusive.

Furthermore, there really is no precedent for regard for human life on these matters, really.

It's also interesting that you did exclude the RIAA and MPAA. But there is a reason for what they do-- they can abuse the system l so they are the sole provider of their product, or at least through their approved means. And ultimately that means using the law to control the behavior of people.
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Old 2013-08-27, 02:42   Link #30296
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
I'd change it. I personally saw a post leaking a credit card number on one of the threads. Scary stuff, really.
The person who posted the info is probably in big trouble too, though.
I myself looked through the database to confirm my information.
I saw thousands of names with addresses, tel, card numbers, among other stuff.
Mine among them. Frightening thought that millions of people, with some with very bad intentions, were probably seeing it as well... very early morning in Japan time, when majority of the victims were probably asleep, unaware.

I saw dozens of posts of people who said they spent the entire morning calling their bank, and some calling their phone companies to change their numbers.
Must have been one of the least productive morning in Japan in recent years.
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Old 2013-08-27, 07:13   Link #30297
Masuzu
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The government wouldn't want anything from me.

I don't own anything.

Everything I have is borrowed from someone else, so what would the government or even corporations want from someone who they can't really take anything useful from?
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Old 2013-08-27, 07:58   Link #30298
SeijiSensei
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China rules out top-level talks with Japan at G20

"China has ruled out a top-level meeting with Japan to discuss a territorial dispute in the East China Sea, accusing Tokyo of 'empty talk'.

"The comments came from China's Deputy Foreign Minister Li Baodong, when asked about the possibility of a leaders' meeting at the G20 summit next week.

"It was a very public put down from Beijing and yet another sign of the serious strains between the two nations, reports the BBC's Martin Patience from Beijing."

Chinese vessels continue to sail into and out of the waters that Japan claims around the islands. Some day there will be some stupid incident where boats collide, or someone with an itchy trigger finger fires a shot. Where things go from there is anybody's bet.
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Old 2013-08-27, 08:38   Link #30299
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
And people freak out over the American government trawling phone logs for metadata. Private companies from Google to Facebook to Twitter already know a lot more about you than the government does. If you can't even trust your government to do the right thing, how much more can you trust profit-driven corporations?
What makes you think that governments are any more trustworthy than corporations are? Just because corporations are motivated by profit? That actually makes corporations more trustworthy than governments, at least in a sense.

Organizations (including corporations) motivated primarily by profit tend to be pretty predictable in my experience. They'll tend to do whatever serves their bottom lines, and pleases their shareholders. They're only interested in you to the degree that they think they can get money out of you. So that limits how far they're likely to go in impacting your life directly.

But government goals and motivations can, and typically do, change frequently, making them more unpredictable. And governments also have the power to fine and jail people, which corporations don't. A corporation isn't likely to go after you just because of your political views, but a government might.

Also, there's a reason why politicians have the reputation for widespread dishonesty that they have. And politicians are the heads of government. How much trust should people place in a governing body lead by people who lie regularly and casually as a basically necessary part of their profession?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of corporations. They often impact society negatively. But there's less reason to fear them knowing almost everything about you than there is reason to fear the government knowing almost everything about you.


Beyond that, I simply echo Ledgem's excellent posts here. I'm honestly surprised how little some people seem to care about the government spying on them.
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Old 2013-08-27, 10:18   Link #30300
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Intriguing. I'd ask that you expand a bit on these, though. As far as the Gilded Age of the USA, corporations treated their employees poorly but I am not aware of any corporation going out of its way to ruin any of their customers. I don't know that they went out of their way to ruin their employees, either; there just weren't any labor restrictions. What examples are you thinking of?
There is the Battle of Blair Mountain, the background of which was not just exploiting workers due to the lack of labor restrictions. To C&P from Wiki:

Quote:
Beginning in 1870–1880, coal operators had established the company town system. Coal operators paid private detectives as well as public law enforcement agents to ensure that union organizers were kept out of the region. In order to accomplish this objective, agents of the coal operators used intimidation, harassment, espionage and even murder.
Of course, this was at the end of the Gilded Age, but the build up was from before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
As for the 1970's in Korea, I'm not familiar with it. Can you explain further?
Basically it was the virtual realization of communist view of capitalism. As long as the corporations did not go directly against the government or its wishes, they could to basically anything they wanted, from illegal expropriation to the use of private thugs to beat/kill opposing workers. You could say it was a virtual corporatocracy within the areas the government did not intervene in.
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