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Old 2013-10-20, 11:32   Link #31301
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
It's a bit surprising that what has become a well-known characteristic of young Japanese appears hardly at all in anime. (I'm not a manga reader, so that world may be different.) Hataraki Man did portray the patriarchy of the Japanese workplace and the problems of maintaining a relationship in the face of highly-demanding jobs, but it's really the only show that comes to mind. You'd think that other shows, especially ones on noitaminA, might touch on these issues more. Maybe they are just propaganda targeting teenagers with constant messages about the value of romance in hopes of turning around an obviously difficult long-term problem for Japanese society.
There is no propaganda, they just restrict stories to highschool or set it in a fantasy world. The idea being that highschool is as good as it gets and it is all downhill from there.
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Old 2013-10-20, 11:51   Link #31302
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There is no propaganda, they just restrict stories to highschool or set it in a fantasy world. The idea being that highschool is as good as it gets and it is all downhill from there.
Yeah, those shows aim to entertain and offer escapism, not social critique.

What does surprise me is the choice for the high school period. As far as I know that is still a fairly tough period for most Japanese kids with the preparation for entry exams and cram schools. Supposedly the can slack off far more during the college years. Not quite sure why that period is far less popular in anime.
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Old 2013-10-20, 12:13   Link #31303
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There is no propaganda, they just restrict stories to highschool or set it in a fantasy world. The idea being that highschool is as good as it gets and it is all downhill from there.
Well, that's part of the problem, isn't it? What message is being sent to adolescents and young adults about their futures? Why aren't there more romantic stories about 20-somethings?

Sure, it might just be fear of losing the otaku audience, as Anh_Minh suggests, but there are the occasional shows that target older audiences. NoitaminA is a good example of this. The contrast between romantic comedies like Nodame Cantabile in its early period and the more recent offerings on noitaminA is striking. Nodame and Chiaki are not the only couple in the show, and most of the characters seem interested in romantic relationships despite their pursuit of careers as professional musicians.

Now we have Samurai Flamenco, which so far focuses on a pair of guys. (Let's not go down the tired BL line about this show.) The older one has a girlfriend somewhere, so he says, but being with her doesn't seem all that important to him. His nineteen-year-old buddy is a model who prefers running around in a phony superhero costume to meeting girls. The other current show in that slot is Galilei Donna, about three descendants of Galileo in a future time. I've only watched one episode, but it seemed pretty ridiculous and certainly not relevant to the lives of contemporary young Japanese men and women.

And, sadly, even the Otona Joshi no Anime Time series which specifically targets women in the 25-40 demographic wouldn't inspire much enthusiasm for relationships and marriage either. One story concerns a young wife considering divorce. Another shows a mother so oppressed by her housewife role that she abuses her children. A third focuses on a woman who is cheating on her husband. These are all based on stories by female authors, too.
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2013-10-20 at 12:31.
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Old 2013-10-20, 12:18   Link #31304
SaintessHeart
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Well, this is what happens when you bring chauvanism to the streets.

I have always thought of it as one half will be aggressive, another half will be passive; considering the fact that a couple of my male friends married rather aggressive girls, and their relationships are still going well because the males are simply too easygoing to bother about their male pride being lost.

Unless they want to impose a solution of income ceiling on females, this probably isn't going to go anywhere. Then again, the prospect of that is going to be disastrous; who is going to pay the taxes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
And, sadly, even the Otona Joshi no Anime Time series which specifically targets women in the 25-40 demographic wouldn't inspire much enthusiasm for relationships and marriage either. One story concerns a young wife considering divorce. Another shows a mother so oppressed by her housewife role that she abuses her children. A third focuses on a woman who is cheating on her husband. These are all based on stories by female authors, too.
I had a mother of 3 for a superior during my army days. She once told us during a tea session, "The girls these days are getting weak too, not just you boys. They are too stupid and fearful to remind their spouses that they are human beings too when abused, and yet they want to demand so much for themselves without contributing (to a relationship)! And they still call themselves as independent! What rubbish!"

I met her husband before too; typical Asian dad who smacks his kids for running around randomly. He would help her wife around during the family day which I met him, but he is more....quiet and laid back. Guess my theory of opposites attract really does apply.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-10-20 at 12:29.
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Old 2013-10-20, 12:37   Link #31305
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Unless they want to impose a solution of income ceiling on females,
... solution?
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Old 2013-10-20, 12:43   Link #31306
SaintessHeart
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
... solution?
All in good sarcasm.

What I was implying that all those governmental incentives and disincentives involving money or ease of access to child-services to boost population doesn't actually work. What works is the incentives that allow people to have time to themselves, like limiting working hours, deconstruction of tourist traps, and setting up initiatives teaching managers how to divide and conquer and not to panic over deadlines.

Over here, they keep increasing the number of childcare centres and "baby bonuses", without realising that our society is too overcrowded with highly volatile consumer prices. Pretty much we are having the same problem with Japan, except that our government seems more focused on production units contributing to GDP rather than a developing society.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-20, 19:37   Link #31307
Sumeragi
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
It's not as simple as you express it, S-chan. I don't know exactly why this is happening, but the fundamental problem is deeper for Japan than even Singapore.

Japan as a whole has basically "evolved" into an herbivore society. You get the talk about Soshoku Danshi and Nikushoku Joshi, but that's not the truth: In general the majority of Japanese have changed into completely self-centered irresponsible brats who do NOT want to take any more responsibility than taking care of themselves. They don't want to be burdened with things except the minimum, they don't want conflict, they don't want to deal with long-term consequences. Basically right now almost an entire generation have not matured at all except in terms of age by the time they get out of high school, creating a ticking nuclear bomb.

The differences are extremely glaring when I compare Japan to Korea. Despite all the problems that Korea has to deal with in terms of tradition, sexual bias, etc, ultimately for the majority of young Koreans it is mainly the economic disincentives that hinder childbirth (with actual infertility being the second major issue). Society as a whole is still one of hungry carnivores, competitive as hell and wanting to get the most out of life, including children, even in the face of the same employment issues that it has along with Japan.

It is the stark difference between my homelands which worries me about Japan. Japan is diseased at the core, and that disease is one of irresponsibility to anything but oneself. It certainly sounds like something a grumpy elder might say, but when an entire generation does not want to contribute to society.....
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Old 2013-10-20, 19:48   Link #31308
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
I am not going to try to disagree with your assessment, Sumeragi. Because I clearly know less about this matter than you do. However I do have to point out that "the young people have themselves to blame" as a conclusion doesn't actually generate any positive solutions.

Assuming you are right, what can anyone do about it? You can't FORCE people to get married, let alone have children. You agree that the path to parenthood is hard, but to say the young people should suck it up and do it anyway is ignoring reality. Parenthood by design is voluntary self-sacrifice, and there is nothing anyone can to do to make it more likely.
SaintessHeart point out what current political thinking is doing; making parenthood easier. You might think this shouldn't be necessary, that this generation shouldn't be helped when the previous generations didn't get any. But that's social engineering to us.

The government wants more babies? Then be prepared to pay real tax money to lower the associated costs.
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Old 2013-10-20, 19:55   Link #31309
Sumeragi
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
I'm not really blaming anyone in particular (if that is how my post sounded like). For one reason or another Japanese society as a whole has cultivated an entire generation who do not want to take responsibility for anything but themselves, and even then only to keep themselves alive and entertained. Reducing the associated costs of marriage and parenthood is not going to solve the problem for Japan.

Frankly, I can't think of a solution here short of nikkeis coming to Japan, and even then the numbers are too few. Unless social norms among the young generation change, Japan is headed for decline.
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Old 2013-10-20, 20:24   Link #31310
JokerD
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The government wants more babies? Then be prepared to pay real tax money to lower the associated costs.
Government operation breeding and childcare centers? Professional child birthing service and government raised children? Sperm and ova collection from identified individuals?

Sounds dystopian...

Anyway:
Afghan special forces commander defects with guns to insurgents


So much for loyalty to the uniform...
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Old 2013-10-20, 20:32   Link #31311
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'm not really blaming anyone in particular (if that is how my post sounded like). For one reason or another Japanese society as a whole has cultivated an entire generation who do not want to take responsibility for anything but themselves, and even then only to keep themselves alive and entertained. Reducing the associated costs of marriage and parenthood is not going to solve the problem for Japan.

Frankly, I can't think of a solution here short of nikkeis coming to Japan, and even then the numbers are too few. Unless social norms among the young generation change, Japan is headed for decline.
But you can't deny that "working yourself to death" had been the social expectation of having a family in Japan. There was once certain social contracts in place; namely, that the men expect job security. And the women expect that they would be taken care of after they quit their jobs for being housewives. Now, neither are true.

I just can't see how the Japanese Youth should be expected to uphold the traditional lifestyle, when the social expectations that had made it possible for their parents to do this, no longer exists for them.

The social structure of Japan had changed, and I believe the youth are only reflecting that change by adopting to the new world they live in.
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Old 2013-10-20, 22:02   Link #31312
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Interestingly, I find it difficult to disagree with BOTH VCV and Sume-nee. I agree that Japan is becoming rather soft as a whole, but at the same time, the decline of Jaan's economic standing had put doubts on their job security, given the keiretsu, the biggest contributors of job openings to society, started offering those openings to China due to cost. And unlike the Koreans, the Japanese greatest strength became their greatest weakness; the constant quest for perfectionism becomes their achilles heel as their seeking to perfect techniques were slowly becoming outdated due to the world quickly changing.

Coming from a society that has both a apathetic generation(namely mine) nand a government that does not care about the root of the problem of not wanting children, I can more or less feel for them. As always, it takes two hands to clap.

I want to marry a loli and have lolis and shotas with her, but given all those social and economic barriers....mai lah, sibei mah hwan. I admit, I can be very irresponsible.

Ultimately, the society with such problem needs to realise that they need to have a real consensus to work together, like a national initiative complete with municipial data collecting and talks to the youth via the companies and grassroots to find out the real reason behind them not wanting to have kids. This whole thing is like a detente, unless they are willing to ease up ontheir social expectations and enforce some real working measures like allowing women back into workplaces, lowering the age of marriage and influencing media to take positive stand on permanent relationships (starting with banning BL and yaoi), Japan is going down the route of self-destruction.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-10-20 at 22:15.
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Old 2013-10-20, 22:03   Link #31313
willx
Nyaaan~~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 31
You can always open up immigrati-.. *is shot?*
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Old 2013-10-20, 22:18   Link #31314
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
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Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
You can always open up immigrati-.. *is shot?*
Have you seen what happened to Singapore? Cheap labour and super-wealthy convertsEVERYWHERE, raising the cost of living at an alarming rate!

At a point, when the monied converts realise that they cannot have grandchildren, the same will happen.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-20, 22:40   Link #31315
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
You can always open up immigrati-.. *is shot?*
I think Onii-chan should be worrying about himself first
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Old 2013-10-20, 23:43   Link #31316
mangamuscle
formerly ogon bat
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by JokerD View Post
Government operation breeding and childcare centers? Professional child birthing service and government raised children? Sperm and ova collection from identified individuals?
The minute artificial human wombs become a practical option I can clearly see Japan giving a good chunk of their budget to grow their future citizens in labs, the long term situation is really desperate and Japan (and most societies) are slow to adjust to social change (and we do not know if these changes are accelerating to a degree that the next generation might have even less children).

Heck I can already see the first scandal because some party will try to curve the selection process so new citizens have higher chances of voting for certain political agendas.
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Old 2013-10-21, 00:18   Link #31317
Ridwan
Got A Bad Desire
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: قلوب المؤمنين
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It's not as simple as you express it, S-chan. I don't know exactly why this is happening, but the fundamental problem is deeper for Japan than even Singapore.

Japan as a whole has basically "evolved" into an herbivore society. You get the talk about Soshoku Danshi and Nikushoku Joshi, but that's not the truth: In general the majority of Japanese have changed into completely self-centered irresponsible brats who do NOT want to take any more responsibility than taking care of themselves. They don't want to be burdened with things except the minimum, they don't want conflict, they don't want to deal with long-term consequences. Basically right now almost an entire generation have not matured at all except in terms of age by the time they get out of high school, creating a ticking nuclear bomb.

The differences are extremely glaring when I compare Japan to Korea. Despite all the problems that Korea has to deal with in terms of tradition, sexual bias, etc, ultimately for the majority of young Koreans it is mainly the economic disincentives that hinder childbirth (with actual infertility being the second major issue). Society as a whole is still one of hungry carnivores, competitive as hell and wanting to get the most out of life, including children, even in the face of the same employment issues that it has along with Japan.

It is the stark difference between my homelands which worries me about Japan. Japan is diseased at the core, and that disease is one of irresponsibility to anything but oneself. It certainly sounds like something a grumpy elder might say, but when an entire generation does not want to contribute to society.....
Well, I'll just say I've long since understood why you would want to put Japan under Korean Clientage. I dare say it's a good idea, even.
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Old 2013-10-21, 01:34   Link #31318
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
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Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
Well, I'll just say I've long since understood why you would want to put Japan under Korean Clientage. I dare say it's a good idea, even.
Have you two ever read of John Calhoun's mouse experiment post WWII?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-10-21, 04:45   Link #31319
Sumeragi
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Join Date: Nov 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Have you two ever read of John Calhoun's mouse experiment post WWII?
My posts should answer that question.
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Old 2013-10-21, 04:53   Link #31320
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
Despite setback, GOP has impressive budgetary wins
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-21-03-32-57

Report: NSA took 70.3M French records in 30 days
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...10-21-04-40-36
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