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Old 2013-10-28, 11:10   Link #31541
willx
Nyaaan~~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Sure. Stewart's point was that we have been sticking our noses into everyone else's business for a very long time now. The sheer arrogance of the Doctrine was breath-taking. Here was a little upstart country that had lost a war to Britain just six years earlier defiantly telling everyone to get off our lawn.

Watch the clips; it makes sense in context.
Talking about "sheer arrogance" .. let's take a look at the Mercator vs. Peters vs. Robinson Projection for maps!

Look at the differences in relative land mass difference .. among others!



Yes, that's how relatively big or small the continents actually are comparatively!
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Old 2013-10-28, 11:54   Link #31542
SeijiSensei
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CJ and Josh get a geography lesson in The West Wing:

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Old 2013-10-28, 12:41   Link #31543
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Greece says can't take any more austerity, will not be 'blackmailed'
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99R0N720131028

High-profile British phone-hacking trial begins
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99R0F620131028
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Old 2013-10-28, 12:46   Link #31544
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
An ex-director of the French Intelligence was quoting saying that, "This is nothing. It is common for allies to even spy on each other."

And I have to agree with him. It is just that the public knew too little about the scale of the spying and just simply raising a hoo-hah over a few powerpoint slides.

Do you not gossip on your friends? That is spying too.
I expect that everyone spies on everyone else. Specifically, the most common type of spying will be industrial espionage so that large national companies can gain an advantage over their foreign rivals. Isn't Canada currently in trouble for spying on Brazil right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And it's common for heads to roll when you get caught.
It's only common for heads to roll if it gets too embarrassing for the government. Usually, it's just the price of doing (spy) business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Ah, but if the claim that the spying were done by the US embassy is true, the US embassies would become illegitimate. If anything, the embassies would become legitimate military targets and the occupants can be killed as spies.

"Spying" is vague. "SPY" is concrete. And we have many Americans all around the world who can be dragged out of their embassies and shot.
Embassies and diplomats are protected by diplomatic immunity for this express purpose.

Everyone tacitly believe embassy staff to funnel information directly to their country's intelligence services, so no-one makes a big fuss over it. Usually, this is just low level information, but occasionally it's a bigger deal and the person that gets caught gets expelled out of the country. This rarely gets into the news because nobody is terribly interested in making a big deal over this kind of thing.

What makes the Snowden case different is that it's horribly public, and it affords an opportunity for countries to publicly slam the U.S. over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Greece says can't take any more austerity, will not be 'blackmailed'
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99R0N720131028
European austerity measures have simply not worked, so it's not surprising to see a bunch of public push-back. Let's hope that Greece will be able to regain their footing, but they'll probably take another decade to recover.
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Old 2013-10-28, 13:30   Link #31545
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's only common for heads to roll if it gets too embarrassing for the government. Usually, it's just the price of doing (spy) business.
My point is, heads rolling would ideally keep people spying for a reason instead of just "because we can, losers, what are you going to do about it?", the way Obama's carrying on.
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Old 2013-10-28, 13:45   Link #31546
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
New evidence shows it really was Bush who planted that bug on Merkel!

I love how flustered Merkel was by Bush giving her that shoulder rub.



I guess that's how they treat their women on the ranch down there in Texas. I would have expected Yale to have helped him learn decorum.
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Old 2013-10-28, 14:22   Link #31547
Xellos-_^
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More than 25,000 North Koreans have defected to South Korea in the last 60 years in search of a better life. It is incredibly rare for them to pass anyone trying to sneak over the border the other way.
On Friday six men and the corpse of a woman were sent back from North Korea after an ill-fated trip which, an official in Seoul has now revealed, stemmed from “vague hopes” they would be well-treated in the Communist state.
After posting a series of pro-North Korea messages online, one of the men saw his pen name appear in the state’s main newspaper, Rodong Sinmun, and as a result thought he would be welcomed in the country.
Others were suffering from business failures or family troubles, and believed defection represented an opportunity for a fresh start.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-8909299.html
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Old 2013-10-28, 15:39   Link #31548
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
My point is, heads rolling would ideally keep people spying for a reason instead of just "because we can, losers, what are you going to do about it?", the way Obama's carrying on.
I wouldn't pin any hopes on that. Unless there's some sort of huge embarrassing scandal, there's no stopping agencies (say DGSE) from spying on foreign groups (like certain Airlines). There are two main deterrents keeping it from happening. The first is that all countries do it, so restricting spying activity will only put your own country at a disadvantage. The second is that the spy agencies have firmly entrenched power bases and civilian politicians generally won't have the skills and tools to enact major changes in their policies.

The Snowden case will probably lead to some changes to how American spy agencies operate, and it might actually get them to temporarily quit spying on friendly foreign leaders. But, they'll probably just pick up on it again at a later date.

Obama has had plenty of opportunities to throw Bush under the bus. To date, I don't think he's done so yet, and I doubt that he'll do so for the foreseeable future.
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Old 2013-10-28, 15:43   Link #31549
Anh_Minh
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Again: I'm not expecting countries to not spy. I'm just saying, getting caught should have consequences.
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Old 2013-10-28, 16:12   Link #31550
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
that had lost a war to Britain just six years earlier
Whoever thinks that is engaging heavily in historical revisionism.
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Old 2013-10-28, 16:23   Link #31551
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Obama has had plenty of opportunities to throw Bush under the bus. To date, I don't think he's done so yet, and I doubt that he'll do so for the foreseeable future.
What would be the risk for Obama if he does throw Bush under the bus? It should be about time he does so.
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Old 2013-10-28, 16:23   Link #31552
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Sure. Stewart's point was that we have been sticking our noses into everyone else's business for a very long time now. The sheer arrogance of the Doctrine was breath-taking. Here was a little upstart country that had lost a war to Britain just six years earlier defiantly telling everyone to get off our lawn.

Watch the clips; it makes sense in context.
i wouldn't say the US lost. Other then burning down the Whitehouse the British didn't win too many battles either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
What would be the risk for Obama if he does throw Bush under the bus? It should be about time he does so.
throw Bush under the bus for what? Obama has been the president for 5+ yrs unless he order the NSA to stop bugging Merkal, he is just as guilty as Bush in this incidence.
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Old 2013-10-28, 16:32   Link #31553
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Obama has been the president for 5+ yrs unless he order the NSA to stop bugging Merkal, he is just as guilty as Bush in this incidence.
That's assuming Obama knew about the bugging. Ordering that a dossier be compiled isn't exactly the same as ordering that cell phones be bugged.
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Old 2013-10-28, 16:35   Link #31554
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
That's assuming Obama knew about the bugging. Ordering that a dossier be compiled isn't exactly the same as ordering that cell phones be bugged.
The question would then be is Obama imcompetent or the NSA guilty lying/misinforming the President.

If Obama just found out that the NSA has been bugging Merkal form the Newspaper then Heads need to roll in NSA. Not for bugging foreign leaders but keeping form the President which has duty to know about this stuff.
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Old 2013-10-28, 17:09   Link #31555
Sumeragi
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You're overestimating the amount of information one person can receive.
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Old 2013-10-28, 17:13   Link #31556
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You're overestimating the amount of information one person can receive.
i am pretty something as important as Bugging the leader of a important country like Germany would have stuck in Obama head. For Obama not to know he is either incompetent or the NSA is guilty lying to the President.
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Old 2013-10-28, 17:16   Link #31557
Sumeragi
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Or the NSA did not believe it needed to tell Obama. Frankly, I don't actually see a reason for NSA to have told Obama about this unless he asked in the first place.

Of course, I do sense double standards in how some people/entities are supposedly obligated to report every bit of information when most people don't follow the same principles.
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Old 2013-10-28, 17:19   Link #31558
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
You average joe will need to put up with it. It's not everyday you get a Merkel. I truly think that without her you guys are just another European country with a debt crisis.
As opposed to USA..
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Old 2013-10-28, 17:39   Link #31559
Ithekro
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If I recall from World War Ii, certain Intelligence groups kept the Predident out of the loop as a security risk, due to some Presidents either being careless with Top Secret files , or not being able to keep their mouth shut.
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Old 2013-10-28, 18:39   Link #31560
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Again: I'm not expecting countries to not spy. I'm just saying, getting caught should have consequences.
Spy agencies have shown a remarkable ability to avoid the consequences of their actions. The most serious kerfuffle in the last few years I can recall was the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, and I don't see Mossad hurting too much over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
What would be the risk for Obama if he does throw Bush under the bus? It should be about time he does so.
The two biggest problems I see are that it'd set a historical precedent, and it could leave Obama vulnerable to the actions of a subsequent Republican president. However, I think that this kind of action simply isn't Obama's style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
The question would then be is Obama imcompetent or the NSA guilty lying/misinforming the President.

If Obama just found out that the NSA has been bugging Merkal form the Newspaper then Heads need to roll in NSA. Not for bugging foreign leaders but keeping form the President which has duty to know about this stuff.
There's no question of incompetence involved. Unless he asked, it's entirely possible that Obama really didn't know about the surveillance on Merkel - all it would have taken is for no one to have told him about it. Now I don't actually think that this is actually what happened, but there's certainly a degree of deniability there.
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