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Old 2013-11-17, 21:16   Link #31881
Fireminer
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Maybe the idea of living in a forest village wouldn't be as bad as it sounded...
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Old 2013-11-17, 22:28   Link #31882
ganbaru
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Fast-moving storm kills five as tornadoes rip U.S. Midwest
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9AG0BS20131118

Gulf airlines splash out over $150 billion as Boeing launches new jet
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9AF0DF20131117
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Old 2013-11-17, 23:48   Link #31883
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Hey, how long would this Drama of Hypocritsy came to an end?
The very business of spying is to spy on people and not admit it. It's not really even hypocrisy any more.
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Old 2013-11-18, 09:36   Link #31884
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The only hypocrisy comes from those "human rights" activists who are undermining the security of their countries.
So there is no difference between spying between government entities and spying on common citizens?

Then what the hell was everyone holding up the great Chinese Fire Wall for all these years? I thought spying on common citizens was a vile act decried by mature democracies everywhere.

Then we found out the NSA was violating the privacy of the entire planet...and suddenly it is all ok.
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Old 2013-11-18, 09:49   Link #31885
GDB
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No, it's only ok for Sumeragi. Pretty much everyone else here is opposed to it.
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Old 2013-11-18, 11:06   Link #31886
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
So there is no difference between spying between government entities and spying on common citizens?
Some people seem to like to leap to conclusions when discussing the topic of spying on leaders of countries.
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Old 2013-11-18, 12:25   Link #31887
Ridwan
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Well, it got blown up, and that's good. I'm of course, biased here. But about 90% of Australians, certainly including my friends among them, agree that Tony is the worst answer possible to Australia's virtually non-existent foreign policy.
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Old 2013-11-18, 13:43   Link #31888
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Some people seem to like to leap to conclusions when discussing the topic of spying on leaders of countries.
What of the NSA program of collection 1/2 million German telephone calls a month? Seriously, the crux of this sudden spy outrage came from Snowden's revelations, which showed the NSA stepped way out of bounds into 1984 zone, if not outright into the twilight zone.

And how humorous once upon a time Google was willing to pull out of China over "spying on the Dali Lama and American businesses." And Congress investigate/banning Huawei over the fear of "Chinese spying on the entire U.S"
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Old 2013-11-18, 14:29   Link #31889
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
And how humorous once upon a time Google was willing to pull out of China over "spying on the Dali Lama and American businesses." And Congress investigate/banning Huawei over the fear of "Chinese spying on the entire U.S"
Which makes a lot of sense. It's what they would do.
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Old 2013-11-18, 14:46   Link #31890
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
What of the NSA program of collection 1/2 million German telephone calls a month? Seriously, the crux of this sudden spy outrage came from Snowden's revelations, which showed the NSA stepped way out of bounds into 1984 zone, if not outright into the twilight zone.

And how humorous once upon a time Google was willing to pull out of China over "spying on the Dali Lama and American businesses." And Congress investigate/banning Huawei over the fear of "Chinese spying on the entire U.S"
The moral of the story should be that spy agencies are filled with evil people who don't give a damn about anyone's privacy or rights. Governments all over the world just pretend to not know this until they're forced to. We should simply assume that we are all being spied on at all times and by every agency.
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Old 2013-11-18, 14:54   Link #31891
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The moral of the story should be that spy agencies are filled with evil people who don't give a damn about anyone's privacy or rights. Governments all over the world just pretend to not know this until they're forced to. We should simply assume that we are all being spied on at all times and by every agency.
When it comes to a self-interest perspective, that is a smaller evil to a greater good.

It all depends on who you align your interests with.
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Old 2013-11-18, 14:59   Link #31892
Sumeragi
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Evil is relative. I consider activists to be a greater evil most of the time.
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Old 2013-11-18, 15:07   Link #31893
SaintessHeart
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As evil as they are to autocrats/dictators/lawmakers. Other side of the spectrum.

Still the most evil are the elitists who claim racial and institutional superiority over their fellow human beings just because they come from privileged backgrounds, or that their history textbooks tell them so. Put bullets in both their legs and they will still crawl towards the nearest medical kit, if not grovel for mercy.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-11-18, 15:14   Link #31894
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
When it comes to a self-interest perspective, that is a smaller evil to a greater good.

It all depends on who you align your interests with.
I guess it really depends on whether you believe in things like rights and the rule of law.
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Old 2013-11-18, 15:20   Link #31895
Anh_Minh
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Or on whether you believe you'll be friends with the dictators.

I've seen my share of people who think that, if the dictators come, they'll be able to cozy up with the powerful. I've got my doubts, but maybe they're right.
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Old 2013-11-18, 15:26   Link #31896
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I guess it really depends on whether you believe in things like rights and the rule of law.
It really depends on whether such "rights" have become "entitlements". I've seen too many examples of the word "rights" being thrown around to hide the (unconscious) selfish intentions.
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Old 2013-11-18, 15:34   Link #31897
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I guess it really depends on whether you believe in things like rights and the rule of law.
I believe in rights, but I don't exactly believe in rule of law. The latter is often funded by taxpayers, and stupid laws are a waste of money; like controlling exchange of thoughts and ideas through speech, regulating internet, etc. It is a worse sinkhole than the military-industrial complex.

Laws have to be always challenged so it is flexible, while maintaining a line of ethics for people not to cross, because times and paradigms change. A blackwhite enforcement is just another detriment to the progress of society and a waste of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Or on whether you believe you'll be friends with the dictators.

I've seen my share of people who think that, if the dictators come, they'll be able to cozy up with the powerful. I've got my doubts, but maybe they're right.
There are two powerful things in this world - interests and information. Since society is always moving, the direction is determined by a leader - a leadership that can be usurped with either of that two.

Usually today it is information thanks to the "1%" inculcated in many people across the world. Class warfare might be just around the corner when the soup boils off the potlid.

And there is PLENTY of money to be made from that. Decentralised markets FTW!
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-11-18, 16:06   Link #31898
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It really depends on whether such "rights" have become "entitlements". I've seen too many examples of the word "rights" being thrown around to hide the (unconscious) selfish intentions.
My word! So "rights" is like "national security"?
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Old 2013-11-18, 16:06   Link #31899
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It really depends on whether such "rights" have become "entitlements". I've seen too many examples of the word "rights" being thrown around to hide the (unconscious) selfish intentions.
Rights should very well be synonymous with entitlements. That's why they're rights and not privileges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I believe in rights, but I don't exactly believe in rule of law. The latter is often funded by taxpayers, and stupid laws are a waste of money; like controlling exchange of thoughts and ideas through speech, regulating internet, etc. It is a worse sinkhole than the military-industrial complex.

Laws have to be always challenged so it is flexible, while maintaining a line of ethics for people not to cross, because times and paradigms change. A blackwhite enforcement is just another detriment to the progress of society and a waste of money.
The rule of law is the idea that laws are applicable to everyone and every entity in a society. You're thinking of legalism; which is an altogether different concept. A concept that's probably well-liked by spy agencies at that.
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Old 2013-11-18, 16:56   Link #31900
Ithekro
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What century is this again? I'm fairly sure what is a Right or not was established during the Enlightenment over two centuries ago. It just took time for those Rights to be considered viable for everyone, and not just white males that owned land, or who ever happened to be te dominate culture on said land if no Europeans were involved.
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