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Old 2013-12-05, 12:47   Link #32061
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Pretty impressive for Singapore, they managed where most of their neighboors didn't.
This is one of the strictest country on earth. And they are also the size of Manhattan Island.
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Old 2013-12-05, 12:54   Link #32062
Sumeragi
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Singapore is the only true "fascist" country that succeeded without going down the dark path.
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Old 2013-12-05, 16:51   Link #32063
widagtama
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Nelson Mandela, hero of South Africa, dies at 95

Quote:
One of the most beloved leaders of the 20th century, Nelson Mandela died Thursday at the age of 95.

Mandela, who inherited a country on the verge of civil war and torn apart by racial violence, will forever be remembered for bringing hope and reconciliation to South Africa. Controversial for much of his life, he ultimately became a beacon of optimism for people both at home and around the world.
Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/nelson-m...#ixzz2mdjCQcND
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Old 2013-12-05, 16:54   Link #32064
KiraYamatoFan
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RIP Nelson Mandela.
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Old 2013-12-05, 16:55   Link #32065
Xellos-_^
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now watch Mandela's Heritage squander and rip apart by squabbling heirs.
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Old 2013-12-05, 17:04   Link #32066
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
now watch Mandela's Heritage squander and rip apart by squabbling heirs.
You mean what was happening while he was alive?
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Old 2013-12-05, 17:46   Link #32067
solidguy
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Thank you Nelson Mandela
On behalf of the indigenous and oppressed in the world I thank you for your contributions to a better tomorrow

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Old 2013-12-05, 18:13   Link #32068
Wigwams
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RIP... No surprise i think.
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Old 2013-12-05, 20:39   Link #32069
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Pretty impressive for Singapore, they managed where most of their neighboors didn't.
No...you just need to play by the elite class's rules....
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Old 2013-12-05, 21:10   Link #32070
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Pretty impressive for Singapore, they managed where most of their neighboors didn't.
That is because we are good at hiding stuff.

CPIB officer charged with misappropriating S$1.7m

So who watches the watchdogs?

The other thing is that our civil service draws high salaries, negating corruption from money. However this has led to two things : income divide between civil and private sectors, and an "inner circle", basically nepotism in the upper echelons.

There IS corruption, albeit controlled corruption. As we are small these things are not very well known to the outside world and are easily stifled through government controlled media, but given China which has emulated a number of our policies, those things are glaringly large.

It is only a matter of time before everything comes to a head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
This is one of the strictest country on earth. And they are also the size of Manhattan Island.
We have innovation issues because of that; your average Singaporean is half as creative and twice as unable to think critically than any other citizen on the planet, but we are thrice as demanding as our Japanese/SK counterparts and a quarter as good as problem solving as they are.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-12-05 at 21:27.
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Old 2013-12-05, 21:57   Link #32071
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Singapore is the only true "fascist" country that succeeded without going down the dark path.
While I believe you're being facetious, it's probably worth pointing out that "facism" in its fullest sense refers to a political system that's not just dominated by a strongman or a single political party, but also one that is driven by an ultra-nationalistic, race-based ideology.

Singapore may appear totalitarian (the reality is more subtle, but it's perfectly understandable if people don't want to learn about the nuances — it's only human), but I can't imagine any other state that is as far removed from race-based politics than Singapore. Heck, it's precisely because of opposition to race-based politics that Singapore had to split from Malaysia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
This is one of the strictest country on earth. And they are also the size of Manhattan Island.
And your point is...? It's far too commonly assumed that a small country is a lot easier to police. But if one were to judge Singapore more as a city rather than a country, you'd notice that "smallness" doesn't automatically mean "corruption-free".

I am not by any means suggesting that no corruption exists in Singapore. Events this year prove that it does and, furthermore, that it exists at the top levels of public service, despite high salaries that were supposed to deter the need for kickbacks.

I am, however, saying that size makes no difference to the level of corruption. Ultimately, it's about utterly destroying any system that fosters corruption, while at the same time cultivating a social consensus that fundamentally rejects corruption as a way of life.

You'd be depressed by how much corruption is regarded as a "social norm" in many societies, to the extent that everyone expects that nothing will get done without greasing the wheels. Such attitudes feed a vicious circle that makes solving corruption that much harder.
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Old 2013-12-05, 22:24   Link #32072
willx
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^ Fascism technically doesn't "have" to be racist.

And smaller geographies are easier to manage. Governance has historically always proven there are HUGE dis-economies of scale.
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Old 2013-12-05, 23:00   Link #32073
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ Fascism technically doesn't "have" to be racist.
The only historical examples of facist states are Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy. Beyond that, the term "facism" has been tossed around so loosely that it's as good as meaningless, the very problem that George Orwell had warned about.

People often use "fascism" as a synonym for "totalitarianism". They are not exactly the same. So, let's be clear about what we're trying to imply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
And smaller geographies are easier to manage. Governance has historically always proven there are HUGE dis-economies of scale.
So how do we explain Denmark's position as the least corrupt nation in the world? It's a country of 43,000 sq km, with a population of 5.6 million people. Or Australia, technically a continent with a population of of 23 million people.

Even if you were to argue that their populations are relatively small compared to the likes of the United States, China and India, you'll still have a tough time explaining how they've been able to keep corruption relatively low across such large expanses of geography.
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Old 2013-12-05, 23:27   Link #32074
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ Fascism technically doesn't "have" to be racist.

And smaller geographies are easier to manage. Governance has historically always proven there are HUGE dis-economies of scale.
I consider Singapore as the exception that proves the rule. With so many despotic nations born every decade, you had to end up with one that works somewhere by pure luck.
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Old 2013-12-05, 23:39   Link #32075
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I consider Singapore as the exception that proves the rule. With so many despotic nations born every decade, you had to end up with one that works somewhere by pure luck.
I think you meant exception to the rule, rather than one that proves it.

And the only "luck" that Singapore enjoyed in this context was the fact it was lead by a group of hard-headed leaders with unusual integrity. It took more than luck to crack down on corruption, though. In fact, I'd describe the measures used as downright brutal: Known leaders of criminal gangs were rounded up and thrown into jail without trial under the Internal Security Act.

Then-prime minister Lee Kuan Yew refused to apologise for what is, by any measure, a gross violation of human rights.

They do say it takes a bigger gangster to stop another gangster.

What was the only thing that prevented this from spiralling into sustained abuse of power? The personal integrity of the first generation of political leaders.
(Of course, some will disagree about their so-called integrity. It's an opinion. You're always free to disagree with mine.)

To me, the question, really, is how do you foster and sustain integrity among people from a young age? There's nothing about this process that can be taken for granted. And if you leave it to luck, chances are, it won't happen the way you hope it would.
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Old 2013-12-05, 23:58   Link #32076
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
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I say it is luck, because no one ever deliberately choose corrupt leaders. We don't know if someone has integrity or not until you give them real power. As I say, there are many collapsed nations who started the same way as Singapore, and the only reason Singapore got the balance right was because someone had to eventually.

But you are right; we can't replicate Singapore, we can't copy it anywhere else because its success was not by design. There was 101 things that could have gone horribly wrong, and in the end we can't simply replicate more Singapores for any amount of money.
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Old 2013-12-06, 00:15   Link #32077
ArchmageXin
Master of Coin
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
While I believe you're being facetious, it's probably worth pointing out that "facism" in its fullest sense refers to a political system that's not just dominated by a strongman or a single political party, but also one that is driven by an ultra-nationalistic, race-based ideology.

Singapore may appear totalitarian (the reality is more subtle, but it's perfectly understandable if people don't want to learn about the nuances it's only human), but I can't imagine any other state that is as far removed from race-based politics than Singapore. Heck, it's precisely because of opposition to race-based politics that Singapore had to split from Malaysia.


And your point is...? It's far too commonly assumed that a small country is a lot easier to police. But if one were to judge Singapore more as a city rather than a country, you'd notice that "smallness" doesn't automatically mean "corruption-free".

I am not by any means suggesting that no corruption exists in Singapore. Events this year prove that it does and, furthermore, that it exists at the top levels of public service, despite high salaries that were supposed to deter the need for kickbacks.

I am, however, saying that size makes no difference to the level of corruption. Ultimately, it's about utterly destroying any system that fosters corruption, while at the same time cultivating a social consensus that fundamentally rejects corruption as a way of life.

You'd be depressed by how much corruption is regarded as a "social norm" in many societies, to the extent that everyone expects that nothing will get done without greasing the wheels. Such attitudes feed a vicious circle that makes solving corruption that much harder.
Size does matter. Here is an article for the United States of corruption vs distance

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/pol...rruption/5642/

More distance your government is from the people, the possibility of corruption increases. Since all of Singapore is a island, it definitely would have the same corruption index as India.
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Old 2013-12-06, 00:20   Link #32078
Fireminer
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Age: 8
Want to compare? Look at Vietnam and China. The Chinese coule executed a corruption figures, and the best we could do is 5 years in jail.
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Old 2013-12-06, 00:23   Link #32079
SaintessHeart
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I say it is luck, because no one ever deliberately choose corrupt leaders. We don't know if someone has integrity or not until you give them real power. As I say, there are many collapsed nations who started the same way as Singapore, and the only reason Singapore got the balance right was because someone had to eventually.
I don't think we got any of the balances right. It is always an ongoing affair where juggling multiple facets of rule, law and order that made us what it is today.

A popular colliqual term here in the workforce is "don't spoil the market", meaning which everyone had the same consensus to do that same thing. See what it does to our society? On the good side we have relatively safe streets and plenty of order, but on the other hand we come up with junk ideas that nobody wants to buy - we are terrible inventors. The only thing we are able to provide is cost-efficiency for our production methods.

Whatever kind of autocracy will come to a head. I believe that our collapse is just postphoned, not avoided. What helped is that each generation work to keep kicking the can down the road, but until when?

Quote:
But you are right; we can't replicate Singapore, we can't copy it anywhere else because its success was not by design. There was 101 things that could have gone horribly wrong, and in the end we can't simply replicate more Singapores for any amount of money.
If China manages to do that I am going to laugh at this statement.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-12-06, 02:21   Link #32080
Kokukirin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
RIP Nelson Mandela.
There is no better time to say R.I.P.
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