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Old 2009-07-08, 23:57   Link #3281
Thingle
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^ I'd take a well-trained, skilled and motivated force over a "size is strength" one. Not only is the latter a huge drain on logistics, but the concept of human wave, which is common with big armies pretty much nullifies the need for training the troops up to a certain quality. Of course, why would you need to spend on specialist training when you'll just throw the troops and hope they overwhelm the opposition?


Skilled troops = more options = a leaner, more streamlined force. ANd of course, the battle systems are standard as well.

China has what? 4 or so MBT's and how many kinds of fighter planes? and how would you efficiently train people to operate 4 or 5 kinds of planes doing the same job in time of war?

Last edited by Thingle; 2009-07-09 at 00:09.
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Old 2009-07-09, 00:34   Link #3282
yezhanquan
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"Well-trained, skilled and motivated" are relative terms. The US Army's recruitment drive has not been doing well for some time now. In fact, some soldiers in charge of recruitment have killed themselves over the stress of their jobs. Also, the quality of troops have been decreasing steadily.

Right now, the US are busy in Iraq and Afghanistan, which is burning money the US do not have.
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Old 2009-07-09, 01:57   Link #3283
iLney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Kira01 View Post
Another strength and weakness between the Chinese army and the American army would be the same concept adopted from the Vietnam War. China considers its people as expandable and are willing to sacrifice them for whatever purposes necessary, whereas if an American dies on foreign soil due to some military operation, the people in American will become outraged in which the American government in-charge of the military operation will fall to constant blows of criticism which drags down their overall approval rate and in the long-run, the government will collapse before the end of the military conflict itself.
The Chinese traditional tactic's success will be greatly depend on the mercy of the enemy. Ironic... Just look at its history. Jeez, even some random tribe/clan could conquer/threaten the might Middle Kingdom.

As long as the US doesn't try to "rebuild" China (lolz), the Chinese has no way to do any real casualty. The America has absolute command on the sea and in the sky. I mean, the US doesn't even need to "defeat" China. Keeping it a fourth world country forever is enough. But then those human right people will protest. The public will get bored. Pictures of Chinese children trembled in fear will be everywhere. Eek! And why the heck we have to fight China anyway? Intimidation should be enough...
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Old 2009-07-09, 03:02   Link #3284
Irenicus
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This display of...inane swagger...is pissing me off. Really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
China has what? 4 or so MBT's and how many kinds of fighter planes? and how would you efficiently train people to operate 4 or 5 kinds of planes doing the same job in time of war?
...right.

Who do you think reversed the UN advance in the Korean war? That was when they barely recovered from decades of warlordism, a bloody civil war, massive Japanese invasion, and a restarted civil war. Modern China is quite capable of producing "MBT's" and "fighter planes" if you didn't notice. They are one of the great powers, deal with it. Any solution to the North Korean issue requires at the very least their tacit consent, and not just because they're the regime's primary economic and political support.

I like wargames. I play a lot of them. I like military gadgets too. They're awesome. One of the things that I know however is that war isn't the realm of swaggering armchair generals. It is not to be talked about lightly, as if there are no consequences -- human consequences -- to them. I keep my fantasies strictly in videogames and for good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney
The Chinese traditional tactic's success will be greatly depend on the mercy of the enemy. Ironic... Just look at its history. Jeez, even some random tribe/clan could conquer/threaten the might Middle Kingdom.
Said random tribe stood at the precipice of Europe...after smashing all resistance in Hungary and Poland. It is quite possible that Paris and Rome would have joined the fates of Zhongdu, Samarkand, Kiev, Baghdad, and countless other cities had they did not turn back upon the death of the poor backward random tribe's Great Khan. China was the main effort of Mongol conquests, carried out over decades of brutal fighting -- and during an era when the "Middle Kingdom" was actually split in two, both more or less governed by incompetents. Do try to learn history before making dismissive statements. And learn the basics of geopolitics before sitting high in your chair declaring dominion over China, too.

And of course, I strongly object to your dismissal of pacifists.
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Old 2009-07-09, 03:18   Link #3285
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First line of the Art of War: War, is a matter of great importance to the nation. It concerns life and death, survival or demise. It cannot be taken lightly.

As for the Korean War, it too exhausted the Red Army. Chinese deaths way exceeded UN losses. For the Mongols, two peoples managed to beat them: the Mameluks and the Japanese (Kamikaze, literally). They were also stopped at Java, if memory serves me.
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Old 2009-07-09, 04:13   Link #3286
Irenicus
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Of course, the cost of Human Wave tactics was deadly. And I'd say that blind Human Wave as the layman understanding goes would have been disastrous -- a good machine gun is all it takes to wipe out a column of infantry. What was truly effective was the infiltration tactics that the PLA mastered in the civil war and the Sino-Japanese war which, combined with the willingness to ignore the human cost, devastated UN defenses. Night ambushes in mountainous terrain tend to render 1950's air support technology relatively useless, especially if they come at you from the rear.

It nonetheless does not change my point that all these hawks declaring China ripe for conquest doesn't understand war. I'll be straight up front: I don't either, that's why I'm so annoyed with their militaristic outbursts.

As for who defeated the Mongols; all credit to the Mamelukes, who themselves possessed a formidable horse archer force, and I'll always contest the idea that the Mongols were supermen -- they weren't, pre-gunpowder sedentary civilizations just find dealing with steppe warfare tactics extremely hard, and a united force of well-led, highly disciplined steppe army naturally proved devastating, especially one as adaptable as the Mongols. It should still be noted however that Ain Jalut, like the Battle of Tours of similar macro-historical importance, wasn't such a decisive battle in the fact. What was defeated was only one of the many Mongol armies which relied heavily on levies from conquered states, and the Mongols were by that time quite disorganized. Il-Khanate fought against Golden Horde and Chagatai, and though local conquests continued the Mamelukes' victory was sufficient to deter them as a tempting target for a weaker Mongol Khan with other enemies to fight.

Java was, like Japan, Kublai's mistake. What good are disciplined horse archers in jungles and seas? The Java campaign was almost like a classic Chinese campaign in Indochina than anything popularly recognized as Mongolian: massive army, bad logistics, tropical diseases, unfamiliar terrain, and natives fighting what is essentially guerrilla warfare against a superior force that can't pin them down.
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Old 2009-07-09, 05:24   Link #3287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
First line of the Art of War: War, is a matter of great importance to the nation. It concerns life and death, survival or demise. It cannot be taken lightly.

As for the Korean War, it too exhausted the Red Army. Chinese deaths way exceeded UN losses. For the Mongols, two peoples managed to beat them: the Mameluks and the Japanese (Kamikaze, literally). They were also stopped at Java, if memory serves me.
Remember the winners win due to internal strife within China itself, namely the KMT and CCP for the Japanese and the Ming (correct me, I think I am wrong, memory is failing due to moe overload) factionalists.

The Chinese pushed the US back to the 38th Parallel because they know the Korean terrain better than the US, and they are able to take up strong L shaped flanking formations, then quickly re-enforce to continue flanking due to the superior numbers of their troops.

Btw, don't underestimate the NK army SK and US sites have been hacked since last Sunday. Since both armies run on force multipliers, bringing down their network can render their armies ineffective due to extensive reliance on short communications.
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Old 2009-07-09, 05:56   Link #3288
yezhanquan
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Well, the Southern Song was never really well-known for its military. The fall of Ming (the uprising led by Li Zhicheng) paved the way for the rise of Qing (the Manchus).

@Irenicus: Aye to most if not all points.
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Old 2009-07-09, 07:08   Link #3289
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
The Chinese traditional tactic's success will be greatly depend on the mercy of the enemy. Ironic... Just look at its history. Jeez, even some random tribe/clan could conquer/threaten the might Middle Kingdom.

As long as the US doesn't try to "rebuild" China (lolz), the Chinese has no way to do any real casualty. The America has absolute command on the sea and in the sky. I mean, the US doesn't even need to "defeat" China. Keeping it a fourth world country forever is enough. But then those human right people will protest. The public will get bored. Pictures of Chinese children trembled in fear will be everywhere. Eek! And why the heck we have to fight China anyway? Intimidation should be enough...
Actually, I do not think a military conflict between the United States and China is realistic to begin with as that it does take awhile in the States to debate and discuss on whether to hold a military operation or not. Before it gets approved, even if it were to be the case, it would take at least a few weeks of time.

During that period of time, you cannot assume that China are willing to sit tight and wait for the Americans to mobilize their troops, can you? Obviously, they will be making all sorts of movements which will in turn stop any possible progress of the deployment during the discussion/debate stage. First of all, there are tons of American investors who put lots of money into building factories abroad and hiring cheap labor to produce goods that is used in American everyday life. Although the quality may be cheap but those products are usually more affordable which proves to be rather popular among the general population, especially during times of financial turmoil. And thus, if ties sour between the two nations, those investors, wealthy businessmen of who supports and sponsors both major political parties, Democrats and Republicans will become anxious and angry as that their businesses may be at risk. For that matter, lobbies will take place, as well as organized protests. Secondly, China does have quite a large amount of US Treasury debt in their hands which will certainly do quite some damage to the economy that is still in the recovery status. Just these two moves can certainly ensure a significant problem to the United States, even though this is most likely during the stage of discussion and debate on deployment rather than actually starting the operation.

Aside from this, it is obvious that the Chinese have tons of infiltrators within many layers of American society and the more useful ones tend to be part of the US government and also military. Since the US is a democratic nation, those one-sided or double-sided agents do have a say in things and it does put some weighted influences on the overall decision of the nation itself. Funny thing is that supposedly.. The US also have their agents in China but has the US ever manage to influence changes on the Chinese's side? Never heard of..

In other words, although the US military excel greatly in their naval and air military capabilities, as well as possess amazing technology to go with it... The US actually loses in everything else. A quality military capability cannot succeed by itself without other important factors. Most importantly, the biggest factor would be the citizens. The reason why Obama seems to be rather popular when visiting many nations and speaking to them is due to the rather ridiculous amount of support he gets. However, does Obama's popularity enable him to get his reasoning through with unfriendly nations is questionable.. If China were to provoke a military operation against the United States, their citizens will most likely support it. However, if the United States under the leadership of popular Obama were to suggest a military operation against China over the issue of North Korea, do you think Americans would support it? Yes, its Obama but will people shout "Yes We Can"? I have my doubts...
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Old 2009-07-09, 08:37   Link #3290
Thingle
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
This display of...inane swagger...is pissing me off. Really.


...right.

Who do you think reversed the UN advance in the Korean war? That was when they barely recovered from decades of warlordism, a bloody civil war, massive Japanese invasion, and a restarted civil war. Modern China is quite capable of producing "MBT's" and "fighter planes" if you didn't notice. They are one of the great powers, deal with it. Any solution to the North Korean issue requires at the very least their tacit consent, and not just because they're the regime's primary economic and political support.

I like wargames. I play a lot of them. I like military gadgets too. They're awesome. One of the things that I know however is that war isn't the realm of swaggering armchair generals. It is not to be talked about lightly, as if there are no consequences -- human consequences -- to them. I keep my fantasies strictly in videogames and for good reason.
Irenicus, your point is irrelevant unless the soldiers who drove out the barbarians are the exact same soldiers who fought the Korean war...or if the soldiers who fought in Korea will be the exact same as who will potentially fight today. Different time. philospohy and context.

What I am pointing out is the inefficient redundancy in their system. Maintaining 4 or 5 different fleets of planes which do the exact same job is hard. Face it, the PLAAF is just a hodgepodge of equipment. They have neither a dedicated weapons platform nor the doctrine that comes with it. What jets are their mission tactics built around, such as for Air superiority? No definite answer, because you got these J-10's, J-11's and JF-17's existing side-by side with Su-27's and Su-30's each with different internal components, quirks and capabilities.

How do you get enough spare parts for each one kind? How do you train pilots for each one kind? In the long run, it's cost-prohibitive. Add the strain of war to the equation and you get yourself a mess... y'know, having that "magnificent" fleet grounded due to lack of specific parts/pilots.

Last edited by Thingle; 2009-07-09 at 09:05.
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Old 2009-07-09, 09:29   Link #3291
yezhanquan
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Suffice to say that neither side wants to fight a war now. Without clearly defined (and obtainable) objectives, there is no reason to start an adventure.
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Old 2009-07-09, 09:33   Link #3292
iLney
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Said random tribe stood at the precipice of Europe...after smashing all resistance in Hungary and Poland. It is quite possible that Paris and Rome would have joined the fates of Zhongdu, Samarkand, Kiev, Baghdad, and countless other cities had they did not turn back upon the death of the poor backward random tribe's Great Khan. China was the main effort of Mongol conquests, carried out over decades of brutal fighting -- and during an era when the "Middle Kingdom" was actually split in two, both more or less governed by incompetents. Do try to learn history before making dismissive statements. And learn the basics of geopolitics before sitting high in your chair declaring dominion over China, too.

And of course, I strongly object to your dismissal of pacifists.
Oh why? Comparing the size of those "tribe" to the great Middle Kingdom, there are indeed "tribes." And yes, I consider the Mongol a tribe too. And you are right, the Middle Kingdom was smashed whenever it was weak and somehow kept up with those "tribes" at its height in order to be smashed again when it ought to become weak, again. That is a glorious circle. And yes, defeating the Mongol was indeed an awesome feat...

Domination over China? No. The US doesn't need to dominate, capture or rebuild China. Like I said, keeping it a fourth world country is much easier. They can hide their army but things like rice fields and factories cannot be hidden, no? We don't really have to gain any direct profit from the war and actually it is much cheaper that way. According to those Keynesian, war is stimulus.

BTW, I'm not object to peaceful means. In fact, I hate war and wish to avoid it at all cost. BUT if a war is bound to happen, it must be fought seriously. It is a tool of destruction, that's it. Those who committed to it must bare all the consequences.

@Shadow Kira01: I don't believe a war between the US and China will happen anytime soon if the Chinese is reasonable. There are too many tights between the two. But if it were to happen, we are not gonna lose. Why? It happens, the US economy is pretty much down to the toilet. The people will change. Crazy ideologies can be promoted during those times. (See German)
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Old 2009-07-09, 10:34   Link #3293
Saleh
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Official says 7 S. Korean Web sites attacked again
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Originally Posted by snippet
SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- South Korean Web sites were attacked again Thursday after a wave of Web site outages in the U.S. and South Korea that several officials suspect North Korea was behind.

Seven sites - one belonging to the government and the others to private entities - were attacked in the third round of cyber assaults, said Ku Kyo-young, an official from the state-run Korea Communications Commission.

Earlier in the day, the country's leading computer security company, AhnLab, had warned of a new attack after analyzing a virus program that sent a flood of Internet traffic to paralyze Web sites in both South Korea and the United States.

About two hours after the latest attack, all but one shopping site were working normally. The Yonhap news agency had earlier reported that the Web site of the leading Kookmin Bank was down for about 30 minutes.

Twelve South Korean sites were initially attacked Tuesday, followed by strikes Wednesday on 10 others, including those for government offices. The U.S. targets included the White House, Pentagon, Treasury Department and the Nasdaq stock exchange.

Like previous ones, the latest assault was also caused by so-called denial of service attacks in which floods of computers try to connect to a single site at the same time, overwhelming the server, the commission official said.

Some South Korean sites hit in the past few days remained inaccessible or unstable on Thursday, including the National Cyber Security Center, affiliated with the main spy agency. No major disruptions, however, were reported.

"The damage from the latest attack appear to be limited because those sites took necessary measures to fend off the attack," Ku said.

Seoul's main intelligence agency, the National Intelligence Service, informed members of parliament's intelligence committee Wednesday that it believes North Korea or pro-Pyongyang forces were behind the cyber attacks, a lawmaker said.
DoS faints *sighs*.

Massachusetts is 1st to fight US marriage

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Massachusetts, the first state to legalize gay marriage, yesterday became the first to challenge the constitutionality of a federal law that defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman, contending that Congress intruded into a matter that should be left to states.

The suit filed by state Attorney General Martha Coakley says the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996 violates the US Constitution by interfering with the state’s right to define the marital status of residents. The suit also says the law forces the state to discriminate against same-sex married couples - on certain health benefits and burial rights - or risk losing federal funding.

“Congress overstepped its authority, undermined states’ efforts to recognize marriages between same-sex couples, and codified an animus towards gay and lesbian people,’’ said the complaint filed in US District Court in Boston.

On CA's budget issue -
Schwarzenegger plans 20% pay cuts
Spoiler for Snippets:


California grants early release of parole violators

Spoiler for snippet:


California’s budget drama intensifies

Spoiler for spoiler:


Language Skills In Your Twenties May Predict Risk Of Dementia Decades Later

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People who have superior language skills early in life may be less likely to develop Alzheimer's disease decades later, despite having the hallmark signs of the disease, according to research published in the July 9, 2009, online issue of Neurology®, the medical journal of the American Academy of Neurology.

"A puzzling feature of Alzheimer's disease is how it affects people differently," said study author Juan C. Troncoso, MD, with Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. "One person who has severe plaques and tangles, the telling signs of Alzheimer's disease in their brains, may show no symptoms affecting their memory. Another person with those same types of plaques and tangles in the same areas of the brain might end up with a full-blown case of Alzheimer's disease. We looked at how language ability might affect the onset of symptoms."

Researchers examined the brains of 38 Catholic nuns after death. The participants were part of the Nun Study, an ongoing clinical study of Catholic sisters of the School Sisters of Notre Dame congregation living in the United States. Scientists determined two groups: women with memory problems and Alzheimer's disease hallmarks in the brain and women with normal memory with or without signs of Alzheimer's disease in the brain.

The researchers analyzed essays that 14 participants wrote as they entered the convent in their late teens or early 20's. They studied the average number of ideas expressed for every 10 words. The analysis also measured how complex the grammar was in each essay.

The study found that language scores were 20 percent higher in the women without memory problems compared to those with memory problems. The grammar score, however, did not show any difference between the two groups.
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Old 2009-07-09, 12:32   Link #3294
Shadow Kira01
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China's ethnic policies root cause of Uygur riots

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The outbreak of bloody riots in China's northwestern Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region has demonstrated once again how intractable China's ethnic conflicts are.

In the region's capital, Urumqi, the minority Uygurs staged protests against the authorities, clashing with government paramilitary forces, attacking Han Chinese and setting fire to stores and vehicles.

The situation then escalated as Han Chinese took to the streets in retaliation. The unrest now appears to be spreading to other regions.

Chinese President Hu Jintao on Wednesday rushed back home from Italy before the opening of the Group of Eight leading industrial powers' summit meeting. It seems Hu, as the supreme leader of the Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese government, is taking the situation very seriously.

The riots were triggered when Uygur and Han Chinese seasonal workers clashed at a toy factory in southern Guangdong Province at the end of June. Several thousands of Uygurs participated in a protest in Urumqi to demand a full account of what had occurred.

===

Deadlier than the Tibet riots

According to an official announcement, the riots left 156 people dead and more than 1,000 injured, although the ethnicity of the victims was not given.

The death toll was nearly eight times that of the 20 or so who lost their lives in last year's Tibet riots. We wonder whether excessively tight security by the government forces was partly to blame.

In Xinjiang, where many Muslim Uygurs live, separatists and independence movements have started to surface since the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s.

However, in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States, Washington and the United Nations moved to identify some Muslim extremist groups active within Xinjiang as terrorist groups. The Chinese authorities have since carried out thorough crackdown on those groups on the pretext of taking antiterrorist measures.

===

Govt policy tilted toward Han

China's policy on its ethnic minorities calls for the economic development of remote regions where many non-Han Chinese live, and the subsequent relocation of Han Chinese from the nation's coastal areas to those outlying regions.

Under this policy, Uygurs in Xinjiang have complained that Han Chinese are being given preferential treatment when it comes to reaping the economic benefits deriving from the development of abundant natural resources in Uygur areas, such as petroleum and natural gas.

Dissent among the Uygurs also has been building for many years over ethnic discrimination at workplaces and schools, and a lack of respect shown for their independent language, culture and religion. In addition, a more general suppression of Muslims has been noticeable.

The current trouble indicates there are limits to the party leadership's policies, which is based on the belief that improvements in living standards can prevent most ethnic unrest.

Ahead of the 60th anniversary of the country's establishment in this autumn, the leadership headed by Hu was nervous about ensuring domestic stability. The riots in Uygur should prompt Beijing to reexamine its overbearing policies on its ethnic minorities, as last year's Tibet riots did.

(From The Yomiuri Shimbun, July 9, 2009)
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Old 2009-07-09, 15:08   Link #3295
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The Chinese pushed the US back to the 38th Parallel because they know the Korean terrain better than the US, and they are able to take up strong L shaped flanking formations, then quickly re-enforce to continue flanking due to the superior numbers of their troops.
No, it wasn't so much that the knew the terrain better as it was the forces in North Korea were not in any kind of decent defensive position and easily outflanked and surrounded. Once the UN forces adjusted to Chinese tactics, and set up their positions with that Chinese tactic in mind, they held off the Chinese advance and then pushed the Chinese back until a political decision to stop was made just north of the 38th parallel.

Let's not forget that the whole thing was possible because Russian pilots in brand new Mig-15s were giving air support too, denying the US air superiority. In a new Korean war. It's highly unlikely Russia would get involved at all. Hell, it's highly unlikely China would either. They want that buffer zone, but is that more important to China than their trade with the US and Europe? My bet is no, especially if the war is a result of North Korea attacking. Even if it is more important, inviting China to play a role in the reconstructing of the post war North while the US bankrolls most of that rebuilding should satisfy them. It'll allow China to keep their buffer zone, and spare them a lot of rebuilding expense.

Quote:
Btw, don't underestimate the NK army SK and US sites have been hacked since last Sunday. Since both armies run on force multipliers, bringing down their network can render their armies ineffective due to extensive reliance on short communications.
Launching a DDoS attack on a few websites in no way implies the ability to bring down a military communications grid. I doubt the morale of US and South Korean troops is going to plumet because they can't twitter during the battle either.
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Old 2009-07-09, 15:20   Link #3296
Thingle
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The South Koreans did an "operation canned goods" and launched a bogey cyber-attack against their own systems.

Would anyone believe that NK, whose computers still run wordstar (and would crash running win 3.1) could do that?
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Old 2009-07-09, 15:39   Link #3297
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
The South Koreans did an "operation canned goods" and launched a bogey cyber-attack against their own systems.

Would anyone believe that NK, whose computers still run wordstar (and would crash running win 3.1) could do that?
You don't need a top of the line system for stuff like that. The important thing for a DDoS attack is a nice size botnet under your control. Besides, I'd be highly surprised to learn that there isn't a single computer in North Korea capable of running XP or vista. Of course I'd be equally surprised to learn that there's a single computer there running a legal copy of xp or vista.
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Old 2009-07-09, 19:53   Link #3298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
The South Koreans did an "operation canned goods" and launched a bogey cyber-attack against their own systems.

Would anyone believe that NK, whose computers still run wordstar (and would crash running win 3.1) could do that?
I would believe it, who is to say that North Korea doesn't have capability like that. And why would we try to make it seem like attack from North Korea? If it was to tarnish their images or make them look more evil then it would be quiet pointless.
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Old 2009-07-10, 04:35   Link #3299
Shadow Kira01
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Actually, the latest reports states that the attacks came from 16 different nations as opposed to North Korea alone. In other words, the attackers may not be North Koreans but are working for the interest of North Korea in this case.
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Last edited by Shadow Kira01; 2009-07-10 at 04:35. Reason: fixed typo.
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Old 2009-07-10, 05:41   Link #3300
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Originally Posted by Shadow Kira01 View Post
Actually, the latest reports states that the attacks came from 16 different nations as opposed to North Korea alone. In other words, the attackers may not be North Koreans but are working for the interest of North Korea in this case.
Remember, DPRK spies are everywhere!
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