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Old 2009-08-04, 10:10   Link #3461
Claies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Eh I have a bad feeling abou this. Clinton is going to be an excellent hostage for a "lift the sanctions or else".
The US would go insane, and this would probably push China over the fence.
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Old 2009-08-04, 10:15   Link #3462
LynnieS
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North Korea is not that stupid, IMHO, to take Clinton hostage. There are already a number of ways for it to take advantage of its situation. Doing the hostage thing is asinine when it can "negotiate" in a stronger position than "hostage taker".

I actually see Clinton being able to take those 2 journalists back and North Korea coming up if not smelling of roses, then at least like it had just taken a bath. It's a good PR move for it and the U.S.
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Old 2009-08-04, 10:57   Link #3463
sa547
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Never liked her. She prayed too much. Where did it land her? During her final years people talked shit about Cory Aquino for calling EDSA 2 (which I consider the right thing to do) a big mistake... No, she is THE big mistake.
This time she's a mistake you can let go of. It's done, so all the recriminations will have to be thrown out.

When Wednesday is over, when the mausoleum is finally sealed, well... back to the usual programming with presidential wannabes preparing for next year, and the usual Con-Ass (Constitutional Assembly) debate (which naturally isn't going anywhere except it's a ploy to extend term limits), while the commoners will be worrying about the daily budget.


OBTW, I think you're very much annoyed with the bulk of local media attention focused during much of the funeral wake.
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Old 2009-08-04, 11:19   Link #3464
Thingle
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Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
OBTW, I think you're very much annoyed with the bulk of local media attention focused during much of the funeral wake.
Nah, man. Just watching those giving the eulogy give me a good chuckle. I mean, look at those people. They're obviously sycophants or taking advantage for political purposes. JDV's wife?? ROFLOLOLWTF
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Old 2009-08-04, 19:03   Link #3465
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
NK is greedy stupid, taking Clinton hostage would be consider a Act of War.

i really hope you are not serious with some of analysis.
That is an extreme situation. But I don't think NK is that smart either to turn this into a PR conference. It would want everything in its way like a child.

Either way, US stands to lose something to negotiate for the hostages.
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Old 2009-08-04, 19:37   Link #3466
karasuma
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Hrm... I wonder what did Clinton offer to get those 2 journalists back?
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Old 2009-08-04, 19:51   Link #3467
iLney
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When the kid gets the attention he needs, he'll behave
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Old 2009-08-04, 20:06   Link #3468
Shadow Kira01
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Clinton leaves N. Korea after winning pardons for 2 U.S. reporters

Quote:
A chartered plane carrying Clinton, who met Kim on Tuesday in an unannounced visit to Pyongyang, departed around 8 a.m. local time. Laura Ling and Euna Lee are with Clinton en route to Los Angeles where they will be reunited with their families, according to Clinton's spokesman Matt McKenna.
Quote:
''Kim Jong Il issued an order of the chairman of the (North Korean) National Defense Commission on granting a special pardon to the two American journalists who had been sentenced to hard labor in accordance with Article 103 of the Socialist Constitution and releasing them,'' the official Korean Central News Agency said.
Quote:
KCNA said Clinton ''expressed words of sincere apology to Kim Jong Il for the hostile acts'' committed by Ling and Lee against North Korea after intruding into it from China on March 17 while they were working on a story for former U.S. Vice President Al Gore's Current TV network.
Quote:
Along with freeing the two journalists, Clinton's mission raised hope that dialogue with Kim could reverse an escalation of tensions sparked by Pyongyang's nuclear and missile tests in defiance of the U.N. Security Council.
It seems the former American president's journey to North Korea was a success. If it was any other individual, it may not yield the same result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Eh I have a bad feeling abou this. Clinton is going to be an excellent hostage for a "lift the sanctions or else".
Totally not possible.. North Korea isn't entirely stupid as that taking Bill Clinton as hostage would be an official declaration of war as that the guy is the former US President. North Korea is more interested in expanding bilateral ties with the United States as that they don't like to be bossed around by China, negotiate with the South Koreans, and also deal with the abduction issue with Japan. Generally, Kim Jong Il actually wants to strengthen ties and thus, taking Bill Clinton as hostage would be going against their own intentions which makes absolutely no sense. However, I doubt Clinton will manage to succeed in rescuing two journalists who ended up in labor camps for the next 12 years if mission failed. Nonetheless, it is a surprise for Clinton to make a high-profile visit out of the blue. Perhaps, this was planned all along..
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Old 2009-08-05, 13:34   Link #3469
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Kira01 View Post
However, I doubt Clinton will manage to succeed in rescuing two journalists who ended up in labor camps for the next 12 years if mission failed. Nonetheless, it is a surprise for Clinton to make a high-profile visit out of the blue. Perhaps, this was planned all along..
No one as savvy as Clinton would have ever made this trip if the outcome weren't agreed to in advance. Certainly he would have been strongly discouraged from going by the Administration if the outcome weren't already known.

Earlier this morning I heard (on the BBC I believe) that Kim specifically requested that Clinton visit the DPRK. Nor was the Obama administration uninformed about the visit, either. Some of the Korea "hands" in the Administration are worried that this might look like a renunciation of the Six-Party talks and an acceptance of bilateral negotiations,* or that it might look like acceptance of the DPRK's nuclear programs. I'm pretty sure Clinton had a well-prepared list of items that he could speak about and ones where he had to tell the Koreans that it wasn't within his purview.

This segment on last night's PBS Newshour gives some insight into what official Washington might be thinking about Clinton's visit.

Mostly I think this gave the DPRK regime some fodder to tell its people how it had made the US apologize for the journalists' "crimes," and an apology by someone with the stature of Bill Clinton to boot.

I'm actually especially curious about whether Clinton and his aides could have read some tea leaves about who might next be leading the DPRK. Apparently their military are not too keen on yet a third generation of Kims running the country as a personal fiefdom.

_________
*Apparently the Japanese in particular are fearful that this is the beginning of the end of their role in diplomacy concerning the DPRK.
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Old 2009-08-05, 15:47   Link #3470
Vexx
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We don't lose a thing by sending superstar Clinton in to pump up Kim's ego or give their state press some nonsense to spew. We do rescue two American citizens. The North Koreans remember Clinton's administration during which the US seemed to have more clues about 'dancing with the enemy' than any other period.

The regime has always wanted two-way talks with the US (I don't know, it enlarges their peen or whatever) rather than having to deal with China or Japan in a '6 way' conference. It may be that a series of visits that aren't actually labeled 'talks' may amount to the same thing.

I do wish the Japanese abduction issues could be resolved but that may end up happening with a 'disinterested 3rd party' pursuing it. Of course, I also wish the Chinese would realize their own interests may over-ride their compulsion to 'avoid interfering with another country's internal affairs'. They really don't want a zillion refugees pouring into their country. The North Korean's labor camps and treatment of their citizenry also give great pause and nausea. Meh...
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Old 2009-08-06, 03:03   Link #3471
Shadow Kira01
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Hiroshima mayor calls for abolishing nuke weapons

Quote:
HIROSHIMA, Japan (AP) -- Hiroshima's mayor urged global leaders on Thursday to back President Barack Obama's call to abolish nuclear weapons as Japan marked the 64th anniversary of the world's first atomic bomb attack.

In April, Obama said that the United States - the only nation that has deployed atomic bombs in combat - has a "moral responsibility" to act and declared his goal to rid the world of the weapons.

At a solemn ceremony to commemorate the victims of the Aug. 6, 1945, attack, Hiroshima's Mayor Tadatoshi Akiba welcomed that commitment.

"We refer to ourselves, the great global majority, as the 'Obamajority,' and we call on the rest of the world to join forces with us to eliminate all nuclear weapons by 2020," Akiba said. The bombed-out dome of the building preserved as the Hiroshima Peace Memorial loomed in the background, and hundreds of white doves were released into the air as he finished speaking.

About 50,000 attended the ceremony, including officials and visitors from countries around the world, though the United States did not have an official representative at the ceremony.

Hiroshima was instantly flattened and an estimated 140,000 people were killed or died within months when the American B-29 bomber Enola Gay dropped its deadly payload in the waning days of World War II.

Three days after that attack on Hiroshima, the U.S. dropped a plutonium bomb on the city of Nagasaki, killing about 80,000 people. Japan surrendered on Aug. 15, ending World War II. A total of about 260,000 victims of the attack are officially recognized by the government, including those that have died of related injuries or sickness in the decades since.
Considering that both Russia under the leadership of Mr. Putin and the United States under Barack Obama are reducing the number of nuclear warheads in their arsenal, it will only be a matter of time when the usage of nuclear weapons in the world obtain the status of prohibition. However, there are obstacles to Obama's non-nuclear future ideals but even so, as long as hope of a non-nuclear future isn't given up on, the day will come...
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Old 2009-08-06, 03:10   Link #3472
Vexx
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Probably more realistic to simply get arsenals to a "won't end humanity" level. Easier to keep track of and less costly to maintain. The genie just won't go away though. A missile will probably NOT be the next delivery agent for a nuke :P
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Old 2009-08-06, 03:16   Link #3473
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Probably more realistic to simply get arsenals to a "won't end humanity" level. Easier to keep track of and less costly to maintain. The genie just won't go away though. A missile will probably NOT be the next delivery agent for a nuke :P
... Out of curiousity, what would be?
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Old 2009-08-06, 03:27   Link #3474
Anh_Minh
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We're developing nukes sized for carrier pigeon.

OK, not really, but that'd be pretty awesome.

(Vexx is probably talking about suitcase nukes.)

At this point, bioweapons worry me more than nukes.
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Old 2009-08-06, 03:39   Link #3475
Vexx
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Heck... a Chevy pickup truck with a camper top will do it. The tiny tacs require too many 'magic shit' microparts ... a modest truck reduces that requirement.
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Old 2009-08-06, 03:46   Link #3476
Anh_Minh
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Buy small cars! If you drive trucks, the terrorists win!
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Old 2009-08-06, 07:38   Link #3477
yezhanquan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Heck... a Chevy pickup truck with a camper top will do it. The tiny tacs require too many 'magic shit' microparts ... a modest truck reduces that requirement.
Well, the Red Alert series did float the idea of a truck-transported tactical nuke. Heck, in Red Alert 2, the truck nuke was a Libyan special unit (the Demolition Truck).
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Old 2009-08-06, 08:25   Link #3478
Ascaloth
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As much as it sounds like a great idea, the cynical side of me believes that the day the US gets rid of nukes is the day the US makes them obsolete in favour of a newly-developed orbital Ion Cannon Network.

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Old 2009-08-06, 08:57   Link #3479
Shadow Kira01
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Hiroshima mayor calls for support for Obama's nuke free world appeal

Quote:
''To emphasize this point,'' said Akiba, ''we refer to ourselves, the great global majority, as the 'Obamajority,' and we call on the rest of the world to join forces with us to eliminate all nuclear weapons by 2020. The essence of this idea is embodied in the Japanese Constitution, which is ever more highly esteemed around the world.''

''We have the power. We have the responsibility. And we are the Obamajority,'' he said. ''Together, we can abolish nuclear weapons. Yes, we can.''
Quote:
Echoing Hiroshima's appeal, U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki Moon said in his message contributed to the ceremony that building a world without the threat of nuclear weapons is an attainable goal.

''I call on all humanity to support this sensible and achievable goal. Let us each do our part in this common journey -- and thereby ensure that there will be no more victims such as those we honor today,'' the message, which was read for him, noted.
Quote:
Also attending the ceremony, Miguel d'Escoto Brockmann, president of the U.N. General Assembly as well as a Roman Catholic priest, sought forgiveness from the A-bomb victims, saying the late captain of the B-29 Enola Gay that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima was also a Catholic.

''In the name of my church, I ask your forgiveness,'' said d'Escoto.
Quote:
Michiko Kasama, a 78-year-old hibakusha from Hiroshima who attended the memorial ceremony, said, ''Speeches by the mayor and U.N. officials have convinced me that certain change will come.''
''I now believe a world free of nuclear weapons urged by President Obama could come true in the future, and I strongly hope the president will visit Hiroshima some day,'' she said.
Considering that American president Obama always say "Yes We Can", I think it applies to denuclearization as well. It simply should work for everything if the United States takes the lead, even if it is the issue of nuclear weapons.
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Old 2009-08-06, 09:27   Link #3480
ClockWorkAngel
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We can only hope. Remember, if all the nukes are gone, terrorists can't get them .

I'm actually quite happy that Putin is agreeing to the denuclearization, this is probably because wisely, Obama has also lowered US' weapon stockpiles, which of course was an act of good faith and a bit of "We can do it, so can you" for the Russians.

of course closer ties with the Russians may also finally break the long and frankly stupid cold-war attitude towards them.
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