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Old 2009-09-23, 21:37   Link #4061
CrossoverManiac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Sure it's probably a horribly simplified video, but I don't know, maybe it might be good to post a refutation from someone who doesn't have a video about how Al Gore is trying to bring about a world government through cap and trade policies. I mean sure that could be considered an ad hominium attack, but I believe it also addresses a fundamental issue, that the guy is nuts and does not have an informed opinion on environmental issues. He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. 'There's no need to worry about running out of resources, when we start to run out they'll cost more so people won't use as much!" Sure that might be true, but he's leaving out that what that would mean is a massive drop in standard of living for our decendents.
Once cost increases, alternatives would be more viable. It's not cost effective to use electric vehicles at this time, but as the cost of gasoline increases and technology develops, electric vehicles become more viable. It's not accurate to say that once the resource is more expensive, standard of living must drop.
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Old 2009-09-23, 22:11   Link #4062
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
Once cost increases, alternatives would be more viable. It's not cost effective to use electric vehicles at this time, but as the cost of gasoline increases and technology develops, electric vehicles become more viable. It's not accurate to say that once the resource is more expensive, standard of living must drop.
The problem there is there won't always be a viable alternative, and even if you have one, you're starting the cycle over again and still driving the cost up. As things get more expensive, people are spending more and more of their money on them, which means they have less and less to spend on other things, so the standard of living drops. The only thing we can do is try to slow down the consumption in the first place. Hopefully, humanity will one day soon do something like build a space elevator so we can get into space cheaply and gain access to the vast materials there. There's lots of metals for refining and hydrocarbons to make plastic with out there after all. Until that day comes though, we need to make the best of what we have here, which is most certainly not letting people use a resource until it's no longer economicly viable to do so. That method will lead to a drop in standards of living.
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Old 2009-09-23, 22:37   Link #4063
autobachs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
From http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/ed...tuff.html?_r=2:



Original video for your viewing

And a critique of the video by Youtuber HowTheWorldWorks:

part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4

It's sad that children will only see the lying propagandist and not the other side presented by HowTheWorldWorks.


The fact that there are teachers that would show this to children who don't fully grasp politics and economics just frightens, sickens, and angers me! If a teacher were to ever try to brainwash my child with this propaganda, I would punch them harder than Rockey punched Ivan Drago! The scary part is that it isn't just in the public system, It can be in ANY school system.

This video should be banned! I will be calling my local schools to protest this Anti-American indoctrination. SHAME on Tides Foundation and to schools who willingly show this to children!
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Old 2009-09-23, 22:51   Link #4064
LynnieS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
Once cost increases, alternatives would be more viable. It's not cost effective to use electric vehicles at this time, but as the cost of gasoline increases and technology develops, electric vehicles become more viable. It's not accurate to say that once the resource is more expensive, standard of living must drop.
"Once cost increases, alternatives could be more viable." The "would" is more for a PR campaign/catch phrase than meant for actual reality, IMHO.

There is no guarantee that electric vehicles will prove better than the current gasoline-powered vehicles when more of them come onto the road. Aside from the need to provide a reasonably priced and stable supply of electricity on top of the current demand, you need to ensure that the batteries (assuming that they are still used) keep its charge within tolerance and over a long period of time. That is, these batteries should not require more frequent charging - as they would lose their charge faster - as they get older.

Also, electric vehicles' resale value is not tested. Existing hybrid vehicles' resale values are just estimates, and don't 100% match 1:1. Not everyone will or can afford to buy a new vehicle.
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Old 2009-09-23, 23:28   Link #4065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autobachs View Post
The fact that there are teachers that would show this to children who don't fully grasp politics and economics just frightens, sickens, and angers me! If a teacher were to ever try to brainwash my child with this propaganda, I would punch them harder than Rockey punched Ivan Drago! The scary part is that it isn't just in the public system, It can be in ANY school system.

This video should be banned! I will be calling my local schools to protest this Anti-American indoctrination. SHAME on Tides Foundation and to schools who willingly show this to children!
So teaching children to conserve and to care about the environment is anti-American now? Do you seriously believe that?
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Old 2009-09-23, 23:41   Link #4066
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
So teaching children to conserve and to care about the environment is anti-American now? Do you seriously believe that?
You can't avoid stereotypes. The word "American" itself is very differently used.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:08   Link #4067
Thingle
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
You can't avoid stereotypes. The word "American" itself is very differently used.
It doesn't matter. There are too many people in the world. If your actions adversely affect the comfort of my existence then I'd rather have you wiped off the face of the earth.
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:38   Link #4068
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
So teaching children to conserve and to care about the environment is anti-American now? Do you seriously believe that?
He just seems to copy and paste what others tell him to say... to my good friends abroad, this is what we're dealing in the US. Its embarrassing to a good many people who describe themselves as "conservative" to be pigeonholed with this sort of nonsense.

Actually, viewing the "critique" is good in that it shows just how poorly they present their opposition. There are a number of things actually a bit off-base or "in your face" about the "Stuff" video... but the youtube "critique" skips over that in favor of moonbattery and corporatist apologist distractions.

I'd rather hear a cogent rebuttal from, say, CrossOverManiac any day....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossOverManiac
Once cost increases, alternatives would be more viable. It's not cost effective to use electric vehicles at this time, but as the cost of gasoline increases and technology develops, electric vehicles become more viable. It's not accurate to say that once the resource is more expensive, standard of living must drop.
Sometimes things simply ARE complicated and can't be reduced to kindergarten soundbites.

Anyone who works in landfill and waste management knows that the US (and China, etc) is in trouble with available space for garbage. Reduce, reuse, recycle -- is at the least just good manners, eh?

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-09-24 at 00:53.
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:17   Link #4069
mg1942
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don't forget china is fast becoming the #1 place to dump electronics

that stuff is nasty
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:26   Link #4070
autobachs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
So teaching children to conserve and to care about the environment is anti-American now? Do you seriously believe that?
Do you want to see what the students were forced to memorize and answer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKiQvKLNDQA
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Old 2009-09-24, 01:51   Link #4071
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autobachs View Post
Do you want to see what the students were forced to memorize and answer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKiQvKLNDQA
The video's been posted already. You quoted the post the video was linked to in and so did I. Glen Beck's take on it is not required.

Edit:

Yes there are some problems with that video, showing it's not really all that well researched, but the core message, that we need to switch to a more sustainable production model is perfectly valid.
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Last edited by Kamui4356; 2009-09-24 at 02:40.
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Old 2009-09-24, 03:47   Link #4072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
So teaching children to conserve and to care about the environment is anti-American now? Do you seriously believe that?
We must have been watching two different videos. The one I watched scarcely mentioned conservation and spent more time bashing capitalism and the prosperity this nation has been blessed with.
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Old 2009-09-24, 03:56   Link #4073
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The capitalism is a two-edged sword ... its brought prosperity but there's nothing about capitalism that should permit people to skip out on picking up after themselves.
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Old 2009-09-24, 04:01   Link #4074
CrossoverManiac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Sometimes things simply ARE complicated and can't be reduced to kindergarten soundbites.

Anyone who works in landfill and waste management knows that the US (and China, etc) is in trouble with available space for garbage. Reduce, reuse, recycle -- is at the least just good manners, eh?
No, there isn't. From http://www.de-fact-o.com/fact_read.php?id=89:

Quote:
John Tierney wrote in the New York Yimes, "A. Clark Wiseman, an economist at Gonzaga University in Spokane, Wash., has calculated that if Americans keep generating garbage at current rates for 1,000 years, and if all their garbage is put in a landfill 100 yards deep, by the year 3000 this national garbage heap will fill a square piece of land 35 miles on each side. This doesn't seem a huge imposition in a country the size of America. The garbage would occupy only 5 percent of the area needed for the national array of solar panels proposed by environmentalists. The millennial landfill would fit on one-tenth of 1 percent of the range land now available for grazing in the continental United States. And if it still pains you to think of depriving posterity of that 35-mile square, remember that the loss will be only temporary. Eventually, like previous landfills, the mounds of trash will be covered with grass and become a minuscule addition to the nation's 150,000 square miles of parkland."[5]
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Old 2009-09-24, 04:05   Link #4075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The capitalism is a two-edged sword ... its brought prosperity but there's nothing about capitalism that should permit people to skip out on picking up after themselves.
Why not? If a company's waste is adversely affect someone else's health or property, that person should have the right to have their grievance answered.
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Old 2009-09-24, 04:30   Link #4076
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
We must have been watching two different videos. The one I watched scarcely mentioned conservation and spent more time bashing capitalism and the prosperity this nation has been blessed with.
No, it's more that you're watching it through a different filter than I am. You're focusing on the overstatements the video made claiming they're bashing capitalism and prosperity, while I'm focusing on the underlying message of conservation. Just because we can be wasteful as a society doesn't mean we should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossoverManiac View Post
Why not? If a company's waste is adversely affect someone else's health or property, that person should have the right to have their grievance answered.
That's why you need regulations. Without them, even if someone tried to sue, the company could just say they didn't do anything wrong and bury the plantiff in a mountain of legal work that they can't sort through without spending huge amounts of money they don't have. We've seen what happens under an unregulated free market, and it isn't pretty. Love canal anyone? Until an organization got behind the homeowners there, nothing was done because individuals just don't have the resources to fight something like that alone.
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Old 2009-09-24, 05:32   Link #4077
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One thing I do believe in is that, if there is no consumerism, we would all be lazy bums.

Consumerism breeds innovation. If you are selling the same product as another company, you can win the market over with better quality control, which benefits the consumer as they do not hurt themselves in using your product. The only thing that is wrong is with the consumer, one shouldn't spend more than what one has.

The documentary should be reclassified as propaganda because it is so lopsided and biased. And for a place like US, it is phenomenal that it was actually aired in classrooms.
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Old 2009-09-24, 06:02   Link #4078
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The documentary should be reclassified as propaganda because it is so lopsided and biased. And for a place like US, it is phenomenal that it was actually aired in classrooms.
I'm prepared to write a lot of that of as poorly researched scare tactics to get kids to actually think of the environment, since a lot of people don't seem to be getting the message. If there weren't so many people running around saying things like "oil will last forever" and "climate change isn't real!!" I'd probably be more critical of it. The only thing that really annoyed me with the video was the bit about computers. They don't change the sockets so you need to buy a whole new one instead of just swapping out the processor. They do it so you can't put a processor in an incompatable motherboard, frying both. It's not just the processor that changes, everything does, but even so there's a lot of backwards compatability they put in. I mean you can still get motherboards with pci slots. However, I can accept that it would appear that way to someone who doesn't know much about computers. Well the part about your pillow will eat your brain too, but not as much.
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Old 2009-09-24, 09:43   Link #4079
SeijiSensei
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Some suggested readings on "net neutrality":

Historical overview of the FCC's efforts to deal with the "convergence" of computer and communications technologies

FCC's Internet Policy Statement

FCC's ruling prohibiting Comcast's interference with peer-to-peer protocols

List of FCC documents on broadband

For those who see some kind of "socialist" Obama conspiracy here, I'll just observe that many of these decisions, including Comcast, were issued by Commissions with Republican majorities. The same FCC that got so incensed over the appearance of Janet Jackson's breast also gave us some remarkably prescient and pro-consumer rulings like Comcast.

One part of Chairman Genachowski's remarks has gotten less attention but could fundamentally change the rules of the game in wireless communications. He suggests that the wireless carriers will be required to allow consumers to connect any device that complies with regulatory requirements to the cellular network. As Vexx notes, the Carterfone decision enabled end users to connect any technically-compliant equipment to the wired telephone network. This ruling enabled an explosion of useful devices like answering machines, faxes, modems, and the like. The wireless carriers have followed the same practice as AT&T did then by tying devices and service together. I'm glad to see the Commission intends to apply the same logic to wireless carriers today as we did to AT&T in 1968.
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Old 2009-09-24, 10:53   Link #4080
MrTerrorist
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