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Old 2009-12-19, 00:51   Link #5121
mg1942
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Dennis Miller said...if they were so worried about MMGW, why didn't they do this thing by teleconference?

Probably hundreds of airplanes and limos, all spewing death-to-the-planet CO2!!!
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Old 2009-12-19, 08:32   Link #5122
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnieS View Post
Democrats' Blues Grow Deeper in New Poll

This has the potential to turn in many ways. Health care reform, as it currently stands, is virtually DOA, the recently announced Afghanistan build-up can backfire, esp. if things get bad there in 2010, and the general U.S. economy looks bad. A turn to a more populist approach for next year seems possible, esp. to try and build up momentum for the elections, but it's also possible that Obama will become more isolated then.
While I'm unhappy that the health-care reform act isn't much broader in scope than the corporatist settlement we appear to be reaching, there are important reforms that will pass -- banning the practice of dropping coverage for "preexisting" conditions being an especially important one. It's also the case that another 30 million people will be covered under the act. It's not everybody, but it's a start. What the bill doesn't do is provide any obvious cost-control mechanisms, but since any meaningful strictures on costs would cut into the revenues that insurers and providers receive, true financial reforms like those are off the table.

The Afghan troop increases won't really begin much before next summer, so I'm doubtful that they'll have much of an impact on the 2010 midterms. Persistent unemployment at 10% will have an effect, though.

Presidents always fall in popularity over the first year of their terms, and presidents nearly always see their party's majority fall in the House, and often in the Senate as well, after the midterms. Kennedy's first year in office was also generally unsuccessful, with humiliations like the Bay of Pigs adventure and the unproductive, and perhaps even destabilizing, summit with Khrushchev in Vienna. Like Obama, Kennedy inherited his first national security challenge from a previous Republican administration. From what I've read, Kennedy was a reluctant convert to the scheme. His advisers all told him the plan would work, and the romance of the adventure probably appealed to the Kennedy who read both history and Bond novels.

Obama, in contrast, has repeatedly and publicly taken full responsibility for the Afghan war throughout both his campaign and his term in office. I haven't seen anything about whether he has a taste for Fleming's novels, but Daniel Craig did say Obama would make a better James Bond than McCain. He thought McCain would make a better M. Pierce Brosnan thought Obama "has what it takes to be" James Bond.

In related news:

U.N. Climate Talks ‘Take Note’ of Accord Backed by U.S.

Obama's appearance as James Bond is detailed on page two:
"The deal eventually came together on Friday after a dramatic moment in which Mr. Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton burst into a meeting of the Chinese, Indian and Brazilian leaders, according to senior administration officials. Mr. Obama said he did not want them negotiating in secret."

Hmm. Hillary as Felix Leitner?
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2009-12-19 at 09:49.
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Old 2009-12-19, 11:20   Link #5123
justinstrife
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If this healthcare bill passes it will be the biggest shift towards socialism, America has made, since the New Deal.

Very, very bad for America.
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Old 2009-12-19, 13:01   Link #5124
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
If this healthcare bill passes it will be the biggest shift towards socialism, America has made, since the New Deal.

Very, very bad for America.
At least it saves a few million American lives from agony. Even the final option of euthanasia costs money you know.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-12-19, 14:04   Link #5125
Vexx
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When did being *part* of the community and having obligations as part of the group become "socialism"? No one exists in isolation, whatever their delusions of independence. The group chooses what efforts to share and what to leave up to the individual. That's why we have, for example, a public road system, fire, and police rather than a privately-owned one.

That said.... almost no one is *happy* with the bill that the Senate is going to approve... its a byzantine mess with insufficient controls that hands the insurance and pharma corporations many bonanzas at the expense of the community.

Corporations have no obligation to the community whatsoever by definition... why anyone would think being ruled by them and their unelected executives is better than representational democratic government is curious. Its like feudalism without the "obligations of the nobility". Eisenhower had a fair amount to say about the topic. I don't think many people understand just how far right the politics in the US has tilted in the last 40 years...

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-12-19 at 14:14.
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Old 2009-12-19, 14:11   Link #5126
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Aye... we may be showing our evolutionary limitations as a species.... the planet will get along, it just may be unsustainable for us
i think we still got a 2 to 3 hundred years before the earth pull the plug on humanity. And in 2 to 3 hundred yrs if we are still stuck on Earth and 1 little planet humanity deserve to go extinct.
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Old 2009-12-19, 14:17   Link #5127
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
If this healthcare bill passes it will be the biggest shift towards socialism, America has made, since the New Deal.

Very, very bad for America.
Don't worry, The USA is not even close enough to use the word socialism. It is one step closer to social capitalism but even that is a little bit of an overstatement.
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Old 2009-12-19, 15:16   Link #5128
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
....I don't think many people understand just how far right the politics in the US has tilted in the last 40 years...
Quite true, but I don't think most of the people making noise on that topic had really lived past 40 years of their life like you do old man.

Either that, they spent their past 40 years indulging in the excesses of capitalism not to even make important decisions like you who had worked in the government. It is more about whatever shit one has been through that helps offer an alternate perspective from others.

I think US did not predefine liberty during its independence that shortchanges it of its price. Nothing is free in this world.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-12-19, 16:11   Link #5129
Vexx
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My attitudes really haven't changed much in 40 years.... I'm an Eisenhower/Goldwater with sprinkles of old Buckley type of conservative. OTOH, on cultural matters, I've always been "liberal" (those New Testament ideas of treating people as you'd want to be and doing things as a community). By todays's meter in the US, apparently I'm a raving progressive even when I quote Eisenhower or Goldwater (or Jefferson/Franklin, two other favorite quote sources).

The corporatist is neither "left" nor "right" ... they go with whatever maximizes their short term profit into their wallet at the expense of the public. They avoid responsibility for the infrastructure they thrive in and they leave town once they've broken it. The profits made are not re-invested in the community. In short, sociopathic. And somehow over the last hundred years, we've made that entity both a "person" in terms of rights but not responsibilities ... and equated dollars to free speech. The combination is destructive.
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Old 2009-12-19, 18:00   Link #5130
Anh_Minh
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Join Date: Dec 2005
And they've made the rest of us believe they're doing us a favor, too.

Well, maybe not so much in France, where a significant part of the population believes the other way: that it's inherently wrong to make money.
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Old 2009-12-19, 18:16   Link #5131
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And they've made the rest of us believe they're doing us a favor, too.
That is their game. Keep people busy with distractions by way of entertainment or making marginal political issues the only things we debate so real change never happens.
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Old 2009-12-19, 18:20   Link #5132
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
When did being *part* of the community and having obligations as part of the group become "socialism"? No one exists in isolation, whatever their delusions of independence. The group chooses what efforts to share and what to leave up to the individual. That's why we have, for example, a public road system, fire, and police rather than a privately-owned one.

That said.... almost no one is *happy* with the bill that the Senate is going to approve... its a byzantine mess with insufficient controls that hands the insurance and pharma corporations many bonanzas at the expense of the community.

Corporations have no obligation to the community whatsoever by definition... why anyone would think being ruled by them and their unelected executives is better than representational democratic government is curious. Its like feudalism without the "obligations of the nobility". Eisenhower had a fair amount to say about the topic. I don't think many people understand just how far right the politics in the US has tilted in the last 40 years...
Outside of the military(and even that is subjective), when has the Federal Government ever gotten a program right? Whatever costs it says a program will cost, triple it, at the very least. Programs that are suppose to run out after X amount of years, are still on the books decades later. Social Security has had to be saved at least once, and will need to be saved again. Medicare and Medicaid have had to be saved. Billions 'disappear' due to fraud and beauracracy. What has the Government(I'm talking about U.S. Government) done, that the Private Sector couldn't do better?

Our Founding Fathers NEVER intended the Federal Government to get 1/10th the size it is now. Politicians are being bought for hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars just for a single vote. 2100 page bills are being snuck through congress in the middle of the night. Or at least attempted to be snuck through.

Nothing is for free. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay for every program that goes through. And that someone is the tax-payer. Every. Damn. Time.

Why is it that I, who pay my taxes, who found a job that gives health insurance, and have done everything right, why am I being punished for it Vex? There are millions of Americans on Government Assistance as it is. Most of them don't deserve the help they're getting. Why am I
funding that, and now I'll have to fund all of their healthcare too? What kind of crap is that?

America Can't afford to spend trillions on this healthcare reform bill. We're already broke. The money isn't there.
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Old 2009-12-19, 19:04   Link #5133
mg1942
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Court to decide if pet dog is just property

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34470910...s_and_animals/




Briefly, a neighbor shot and killed a family's dog when it wandered onto his property. He was convicted of animal cruelty, but the family also sued him in civil court. In most states, animals are considered property so you can only successfully sue to recover economic damages, such as the market value of the animal. However, the market value of an adult, mix breed dog is essentially nothing. But the family is arguing their pet is worth more than that because of the emotional attachment.


Is a pet just property? A family member? Something in between? Does it matter how attached to family is to the pet?
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Old 2009-12-19, 19:35   Link #5134
LeoXiao
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Just because the founding fathers didn't believe in government spending doesn't mean they were right. They lived in the 1700s and things are different now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34470910...s_and_animals/

Is a pet just property? A family member? Something in between? Does it matter how attached to family is to the pet?
Unless they can prove that the neighbor shot the dog out of malice, all they should get is compensation for the material worth of the dog. I personally fear dogs, and if a dog "wandered" (most likely it would be chasing me or something as dogs often do) near me, I might shoot it as well. I can understand the family's emotions, but they are complaining too much. It's a dog, not a human.
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Old 2009-12-19, 21:16   Link #5135
Vexx
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Outside of the military(and even that is subjective), when has the Federal Government ever gotten a program right? Whatever costs it says a program will cost, triple it, at the very least. Programs that are suppose to run out after X amount of years, are still on the books decades later. Social Security has had to be saved at least once, and will need to be saved again. Medicare and Medicaid have had to be saved. Billions 'disappear' due to fraud and beauracracy. What has the Government(I'm talking about U.S. Government) done, that the Private Sector couldn't do better?

Our Founding Fathers NEVER intended the Federal Government to get 1/10th the size it is now. Politicians are being bought for hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars just for a single vote. 2100 page bills are being snuck through congress in the middle of the night. Or at least attempted to be snuck through.

Nothing is for free. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay for every program that goes through. And that someone is the tax-payer. Every. Damn. Time.

Why is it that I, who pay my taxes, who found a job that gives health insurance, and have done everything right, why am I being punished for it Vex? There are millions of Americans on Government Assistance as it is. Most of them don't deserve the help they're getting. Why am I
funding that, and now I'll have to fund all of their healthcare too? What kind of crap is that?

America Can't afford to spend trillions on this healthcare reform bill. We're already broke. The money isn't there.
The overlords have you working so hard, you never get a chance to notice who is actually pocketing all the money. Its a classic diversion.

"Government Assistance" is mostly going to the pockets of the top-end of the spectrum.

And good luck if you ever actually have a major issue with health -- and find out you've been rescinded by a corporate "death panel" ...
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Old 2009-12-19, 21:40   Link #5136
MeoTwister5
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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It's always been, and unless human nature change, always will be about maintaining the status quo. Doesn't take a genius to know that once people climb the corporate ladder after stomping on other people's lives and livelihood along the way they'll do the same things they've been doing to keep themselves at the cream of the crop.

People forget that at the end of the day, healthcare and insurance aren't services, they're products. At least you people have some sort of basic healthcare for the masses; I've been studying in the hospital system of this developing nation for barely three years and I've seen way too many people unable to pay their bills for even the most basic services. It's sickening.
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Old 2009-12-19, 22:00   Link #5137
Zu Ra
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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Sushi set to go Sky high

Quote:

MOSCOW
: Sushi will soar to new gastronomic heights next week when a Japanese astronaut blasts off for the International Space Station with a load of raw fish.

Japanese astronaut Soichi Noguchi, who will fly into space on Monday from the Baikonur cosmodrome with Russia's Oleg Kotov and NASA's Timothy Creamer, said on Saturday he had introduced his colleagues to raw seafood when they trained in Japan. "We had training in Japan and I trained (my space colleagues) to be sushi lovers, so I am going to make a couple of flavors of sushi," Noguchi told a press conference ahead of Monday's launch of the Russian Soyuz spacecraft. "...Some sashimi, and raw fish and sushi and I will bring that up to the space station to share with my crew."

According to NASA, normal fare on the space station includes staples like mushroom soup, macaroni and cheese, or chicken and rice.On the Russian side, there is tinned perch, curds with nuts and beetroot soup (borscht) sucked through a straw from a plastic bag.





Source : Yahoo News / Reuters


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Old 2009-12-20, 02:11   Link #5138
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
People forget that at the end of the day, healthcare and insurance aren't services, they're products. At least you people have some sort of basic healthcare for the masses; I've been studying in the hospital system of this developing nation for barely three years and I've seen way too many people unable to pay their bills for even the most basic services. It's sickening.
It is more of an overpriced product by itself if you take a look at the standards.It is true that cheapening healthcare might deter the researchers from creating more powerful drugs to fight diseases by removing the profit motive, but apparently most of the money goes to the marketing department, some of which who earn more than they should as compared to the doctors and R&D people.

Having the ability to pro-sell a product that saves lives isn't ethical in the first place. It is just like saying that the lives of the consumers are worth a dozen dimes three times a day before meals.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-12-20, 09:16   Link #5139
MrTerrorist
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Classified
This girl won't give up. Won't she?
Dutch sailor girl Laura Dekker 'missing'
Dutch police say teenage sailor Laura Dekker - who seeks to be the youngest person to sail solo around the world -has been missing since Friday.
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Old 2009-12-20, 11:39   Link #5140
Irenicus
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Having the ability to pro-sell a product that saves lives isn't ethical in the first place.
My biggest "culture shock" with America was probably the fact that you can see those drug commercials on TV in the first place. I was like, "wtf, why? Aren't doctors the ones who should be telling you which drug to use!?" And they aren't late night commercials either, but like, CNN commercials selling this stuff alongside shiny new cars and all that.

IMO, a total bloody waste of precious resources. Those commercials aren't cheap. And it's not like they're contributing anything even artistically (like some cool commercials do); every goddamn drug commercial I've ever seen generally has A) slightly-better-looking-than-average-people, B) soothing narrator's voice, C) movement to show how happy the slightly-better-than-average people are, D) some midtown America scenery with greens and/or "ideal" houses. Extra points if it comes with dogs. You never see cats. Cats are too dignified for drug commercials.

So the lesson of day (lol) would be, what is normal in current day USA might actually be total idiocy that would make any neutral observer shudder in disgust. Maybe a hundred years later historians will be writing (err...blogging? Holocron-ing?) about the terrible conditions of a corporatist early 21st century USA and the Socialist Scare that killed reform efforts by the well-meaning but tragic President Obama, or something. Kinda like how we write about the industrial horrors of the Gilded Age today.
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