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Old 2010-02-20, 00:12   Link #6161
ClockWorkAngel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Disclaimer: I just wrote a rant below and then added this disclaimer. ClockWorkAngel, just to be clear, the angry tone and attitude I have it not directed to you at all. It is just anger at this Joe Stack guy. So please don't interpret anything as negativity towards you.

It is bullshit what he did. "To understand his level of frustration and suffering". Many people experience great suffering and immense frustration in their life. Most of them don't end up doing a kamikaze stunt that kills some people, critically injures 2, and hurts a dozen other people. I don't care what his issues were with the IRS, you don't kill innocent IRS employees. Think about it, the man who died in the IRS building has a life, frustrations, friends and family. The two people who were critically injured have loved ones and all those other things. That Joe Stack schmuck did a murder suicide because "Waaah, the IRS ruined my life!". The man was keeping him down. It got in the way of his life. Ruined his financial plans. So what is the solution? To truly destroy the life of others? Really? God, I'm just getting sick of people like him. He could have coped with his financial problems. The person he killed is gone from Earth for good. The 2 people who are critically injured are still in danger of losing their lives and may be permanently injured. I don't care what Joe Stack's bad experiences were with the IRS and his frustration. May that douche be burning in hell. I rant and rave because the man writes his manifesto and acts like he was to do a righteous act. He probably envisioned his act to be something like martyrdom or something. Really, I just see him as a hateful man who was ready to give up on life and decided to take out some IRS employees while he was at it.

Sorry for the rant, but it bother me there are people as low as him in this world. I didn't read the manifesto, but I read in a news article that he said "Violence is the only answer". God, I'm sick of psychos hurting and killing others because they can't handle their problems in life, you know?

Edit: Just read this post: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6155 . God, that Joe Stack guy is an even bigger douche now. He had IRS problems that he brought upon himself and acts like they are bad and that anarchy was the answer to the "bad, bad government people". Ugh, well, at least I know now that the IRS wasn't in the slightest too strict to him; like I said, he brought upon the IRS problems he faced.
Don't worry, I wouldn't interpret anything to be directed with me, it's a really controversial topic.

You can really tell he wants to guarder some sympathy from readers, but I do have to agree with you, what he did was irresponsible. I can see what he wanted to do, what he wanted to express, but in the same time you can't justify the death of someone unrelated to his suffering.

The people of the IRS, like any civil servant are normal people with jobs and they are tasked to preform their jobs, it just happens to be that their jobs have alot more weight on other people's lives.

On the tax cheating, it really does work against him. But the problem still exists; sometimes the institutions and regulations which were made to help the small guys sometimes screw the same people.

Governments are not perfect, they're never going to be perfect. Sometimes we have to defer, sometimes we have to realize how unfair things are. People have to realize that we give up an amount of freedoms for particular privileges. And there will always be people who want anarchy, sometimes its for a sound reason or principle which they believe in, that order will spontaneously take the world. And others, because they would love to live in a world with no restrictions on life.

No matter how free we may think we are as a people, of nations of this world; there's alot of freedoms which we don't have, I believe that we as a people shouldn't be so caught up on freedom, when our freedom is truly in danger, people will fight, people will rally.

But one man's suffering doesn't warrant the efforts of everyone, and everyone's suffering will not warrant the actions of only one man.
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Old 2010-02-20, 00:32   Link #6162
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
Don't worry, I wouldn't interpret anything to be directed with me, it's a really controversial topic.

You can really tell he wants to guarder some sympathy from readers, but I do have to agree with you, what he did was irresponsible. I can see what he wanted to do, what he wanted to express, but in the same time you can't justify the death of someone unrelated to his suffering.

The people of the IRS, like any civil servant are normal people with jobs and they are tasked to preform their jobs, it just happens to be that their jobs have alot more weight on other people's lives.

On the tax cheating, it really does work against him. But the problem still exists; sometimes the institutions and regulations which were made to help the small guys sometimes screw the same people.

Governments are not perfect, they're never going to be perfect. Sometimes we have to defer, sometimes we have to realize how unfair things are. People have to realize that we give up an amount of freedoms for particular privileges. And there will always be people who want anarchy, sometimes its for a sound reason or principle which they believe in, that order will spontaneously take the world. And others, because they would love to live in a world with no restrictions on life.

No matter how free we may think we are as a people, of nations of this world; there's alot of freedoms which we don't have, I believe that we as a people shouldn't be so caught up on freedom, when our freedom is truly in danger, people will fight, people will rally.

But one man's suffering doesn't warrant the efforts of everyone, and everyone's suffering will not warrant the actions of only one man.
The IRS serves a lot of important functions and services. Sure it isn't perfect and sometimes it hurts the small guy, like you said. But the IRS isn't looking to destroy lives. It is just upholding rules and regulations. This Andrew Stack guy (apparently that is his real name) really did do an irresponsible thing, like you said. Really, more than that, he did something flat-out wrong. It wasn't the course of action to take; what he did.

Part of my frustration with this guy and what he did is that I really hope this event doesn't spawn copy cat crimes. The Columbine incident spawned copy cat crimes. I hope that some people out there facing hard times and who have issues with the government don't look at this crime and then think to themselves "Why don't I lash out to gov't officials, too?".
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Old 2010-02-20, 01:55   Link #6163
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I didn't read the manifesto, but I read in a news article that he said "Violence is the only answer". God, I'm sick of psychos hurting and killing others because they can't handle their problems in life, you know? I felt the need to rant to get some things off my chest.
You should probably read it instead of hearing everyone else make opinions about it. Not that I'm trying to downplay justsomeguy's opinion, he's perfectly entitled to it. I will downplay any media opinion though - those people are paid to take stuff out of context. And before you do read it, ignore the manifesto label. It's not one. It's just a letter from a guy who clearly had problems.

As for taxes, I'll just say this - the IRS performs a service that was not created for the reasons it exists today. Initially it was just a way for the government to pay for the Civil War. Today it operates as an arm of the Treasury, collecting income taxes for a variety of government programs. Many of which are underfunded or poorly managed and don't seem to be getting fixed anytime soon (such as Social Security).

Keep in mind this system, like many other functions of the various government agencies, has little to no representation except for committees the public does not elect and elected officials who don't always vote in favor of their constituents. For example, the public overwhelming expressed their dislike for the TARP program, and it failed to get enough votes in Congress. The same program was pushed through again and this time passed because the first no vote caused the stock market to plummet. That's not a vote of public representation, it was one of fear and self interest.

You'll get some vague "expert" opinions that the bailouts worked, but then again the debt is now a staggering amount and only going higher, and while major companies have begun posting profits the average public is still facing unemployment and lower standards of living. Public frustration at not feeling like they have a voice is measured in things like the Tea Party movement, which no matter how fringe it is painted is an accurate depiction of the raw anger many Americans have about not feeling like they have a voice in their government anymore. The Tea Party is perhaps the most talked about these days but it's not the only movement - groups exist of all leanings even if they aren't as known or aggressive.

Does that give a man the right to crash a plane into a building and kill people? Well, no. I can't say his actions were justified, as the people he harmed were most likely not involved with his quarrels except by circumstance (they worked at the place he didn't like). But, in a wider view, it's just a bloody notch of protest in the bigger problems the country has. He wasn't the first to do something like this, and he won't be the last. Sadly.

Think about it from this perspective - if you truly felt you weren't getting a fair deal in the system, what would you do to change that? Send letters? How far would you go, before you just gave up and looked the other way? How far would you go to get someone, anyone, to pay attention to your concerns? How extreme would you get to make your points heard?

I'm not defending this guy, but his letter clearly shows intelligence. One can only wonder what went wrong to drive this guy to do what he did. I can definitely say that putting all the blame on him and simply dismissing him as a "crazy guy" isn't the best thing to do...remember that one suicide bomber is a crazy guy, but a bunch hijacking airliners to crash them into buildings is an act of war.
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Old 2010-02-20, 02:33   Link #6164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
<snip>
Having intelligence doesn't mean he wasn't crazy. The simple fact is he cheated on his taxes and got caught. The IRS didn't cause his problems, he caused them himself. He was just projecting things onto the government because it's easier to say "it's all their fault" than it is to admit he screwed things up himself.

Also your example about the TARP? That's why we're a representative republic and not an actual democracy. Sure, the public doesn't like it, but they're going by talking points they heard on cable news. The simple fact is it saved several financial institutions from going under. Even if you assume their going under wouldn't have caused problems for any other sectors, we're still looking at more people being out of work than currently are. The popular move isn't always the best move after all.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:14   Link #6165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Having intelligence doesn't mean he wasn't crazy. The simple fact is he cheated on his taxes and got caught. The IRS didn't cause his problems, he caused them himself. He was just projecting things onto the government because it's easier to say "it's all their fault" than it is to admit he screwed things up himself.

Also your example about the TARP? That's why we're a representative republic and not an actual democracy. Sure, the public doesn't like it, but they're going by talking points they heard on cable news. The simple fact is it saved several financial institutions from going under. Even if you assume their going under wouldn't have caused problems for any other sectors, we're still looking at more people being out of work than currently are. The popular move isn't always the best move after all.
I never said he wasn't crazy - he did crash a plane into a building after all. I said dismissing him as "just another crazy guy" probably isn't the best idea. Are you basing the "cheated on his taxes" just from what he wrote, or is there something you can point me to that would clear that up? I won't deny he projected but we all do - institutional anger works like that. The government isn't the cause of every problem anymore than the police are, it's just a feeling of "the man" getting them down. Doesn't mean that something didn't go wrong somewhere that someone should feel angry about, or at least feel an injustice was done.

Hindsight on the bailout is one thing. The TARP was a hail mary play. Of course, now things are looking better in the economy so pats on the back are going around for jobs well done, as if it was "just as planned". I'm fully aware of the damages of these companies going under would have done, but I also believe that by bailing them out we not only rewarded their bad behavior but we've also set a bad precedent for risk taking. What happens when the next big industrial crisis hits, are we going to bail them all out again because "they're too big to fail"? I really hope not. There shouldn't even be a next time, but you know there will be.

We're in a representative republic because majorities aren't the only ones with a voice - an actual democracy would be too unwieldy anyway with the size of the nation. There were many politicians that did not approve of the bailout, but they bowed to fear of market collapse because their first judgment of voting no caused a panic reaction on the Dow. They voted yes because they were afraid things would be worse if they stuck with the no vote.

There was little time to prepare any second opinion on if the plan was a good idea or not, the Treasury and the White House pressured Congress into passing it because if they didn't it could have been the end of the world (or so they said).

Even economists were unsure if it would work. Some said it was too small, some said it was too big, some were afraid it would drive inflation, etc. Some thought no bailout was better, others said pumping as much money into the market as fast as possible would be better. Clashing theories about Great Depression lessons and other bubble bursts abounded. Two years later, TARP is a distant memory and the second stimulus is the new "greatest thing ever". Congressmen who didn't even vote for it are taking credit for creating new jobs and saving Americans from who knows what kind of horrible fate.

I can tell you one thing, there's many empty houses where I live, and closed businesses too. It's nice to see those financial companies posting good profits and most have even paid back the money they owed, but there's still many people jobless and worse. Things like that feed anger and frustration, with lots of people wondering where the help for the "little guy" is.

This guy did a terrible thing, and I don't defend any of his actions, but dismissing his final act as the terrorist attack of a rambling crazy man is, to me at least, not thinking about where he came from and what drove him to do what he did. He certainly doesn't seem to be a "some people just want to watch the world burn" type of individual.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:21   Link #6166
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Edit: I wrote this post before reading your last post Solace. It wasn't there before I started writing it. I see more about what you are talking about and how we should try to see where he is coming from and he is not just "another nutjob". But really he basically is, I think. I don't care where he is coming from. It all goes down the tubes when you commit senseless killing.

The post I wrote (went back to ranting, sorry >.>):

I don't even want to read his letter. I don't care what he had to say. He wrote it all and hoped it would justify his murderous act. I don't care if he was frustrated. Again, boo hoo. He should have sucked it up like a strong person. He isn't the only person to go through hard times in life and suffer. Everyone suffers, and most go through hard times. Some go through a hell of a lot worse than him and don't go and commit murder-suicides. I don't care if his letter shows he was intelligent. Obviously he isn't too bright if he decides crashing a plane into a building killing innocents is the best thing to do due to his frustration. And intelligent person in their right mind would cope with the problems they faced and find solutions. They would have found solutions. He wasn't in his right mind, so to speak.

And if you make the point that the IRS does have problems and doesn't always benefit people, you are right. But this isn't the way to deal with an imperfect institution. He could have ranted and wrote letters and so forth, and it probably wouldn't have changed anything. But he did something terrible instead, and when all is said and done...will the IRS change? He lashed out. Now...will the IRS change like he wanted them to? Probably not in the least. Good going to him, he accomplished nothing good yet produced much bad things.

Edit 2: I'm usually not so...edgy with news like this, I must say. And I don't rant about stories like this most times. But this guy really got me going. I think a big part of it is that he believed he was right to do what he did. He wrote a letter and posted it online. He felt like he was explaining himself and that by explaining himself, it would at least partially, however little, justify his ambition. I can only imagine he thought he was to do the right thing by doing what he did, and that is what bothers me. He was so delusional and had plenty of time to think this through and plenty of time to think "Hey, I shouldn't do this, this isn't the answer" but he really thought that doing what he did was a good answer. So sad and frustrating. I'm also ranting about this guy twice because I'm sick of seeing people do terrible things in life because things didn't go according to plan (like the professor in the Alabama shooting, that pisses me off, too). That Alabama shooting didn't help things. This story was the straw that broke the camels back for me. And like I mentioned earlier, I'm worried about copy cat crimes.
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Last edited by Urzu 7; 2010-02-20 at 03:48.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:34   Link #6167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
He isn't the only person to go through hard times in life and suffer. Everyone suffers, and most go through hard times. Some go through a hell of a lot worse than him and don't go and commit murder-suicides.
There's some that go through less hell and still do such things. Suffering isn't equal and life isn't fair.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this discussion since we've all made our points. There's no need to end up talking in circles on this kind of thing.
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Old 2010-02-20, 03:44   Link #6168
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
There's some that go through less hell and still do such things. Suffering isn't equal and life isn't fair.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this discussion since we've all made our points. There's no need to end up talking in circles on this kind of thing.
I made some edits to my post, and cited that I got really upset over this story due to a couple reasons.

Yeah, I've said what I wanted to. I let out some frustration. You are right, there is no need to talk in circles.
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Old 2010-02-21, 03:53   Link #6169
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* Sarah Palin Pissed at Family Guy Reference

I would really be grateful, if someone could post Faux News take on this . Need my luffz before sleep
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Old 2010-02-21, 04:23   Link #6170
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People's Republic Of Hacking - Computer Security In China

This is an interesting read. Being a computer enthusiast, security has been my favourite subject though I know little about it.

Sounds like the script kiddies are rising again, this time from China.
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Old 2010-02-21, 05:34   Link #6171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post
* Sarah Palin Pissed at Family Guy Reference

I would really be grateful, if someone could post Faux News take on this . Need my luffz before sleep
I don't know. Tempted to say "Harden up, it's life", but that's just a little mean. Mocking mental illness is never a joke.
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Old 2010-02-21, 10:09   Link #6172
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A nice rebuttal to Family Guy Vs Palin / Faux News >>>Here<<< (LANG NSFW)


Quote:
I don't know. Tempted to say "Harden up, it's life", but that's just a little mean. Mocking mental illness is never a joke.
They haven't made fun of People with Downs Syndrome in that episode . Family Guy always makes of all special people . But this one just mentioned Ex Alaska Governor .

Here is the Summary , if you haven't watched it yet .. ...

NOT Defending Family Guy, not the idea
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Old 2010-02-21, 13:22   Link #6173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zu Ra View Post


A nice rebuttal to Family Guy Vs Palin / Faux News >>>Here<<< (LANG NSFW)




They haven't made fun of People with Downs Syndrome in that episode . Family Guy always makes of all special people . But this one just mentioned Ex Alaska Governor .

Here is the Summary , if you haven't watched it yet .. ...

NOT Defending Family Guy, not the idea
If Family Guy made it clear it was a satire, then there wouldn't be an argument!

Anyone see the Glenn Beck speech at CPAC? According to him, purity is needed for long lasting power and the "big tent" argument is stupid.
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Old 2010-02-21, 14:31   Link #6174
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Let me quote the thing they said about people with down syndrome;

"I used to hear that people with Down syndrome were different from the rest of us but you’re not. You’re not different at all. You’re just a bunch of assholes like everyone else."

I think a reference to a person isn't particularly bad or anything. Really what type of statement did they make about Sarah Palin at all?
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Old 2010-02-21, 14:51   Link #6175
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I think it's quite low and petty to mock those people. They didn't choose the circumstance of their birth. It's not their fault... that they're related to Sarah Palin.
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Old 2010-02-21, 15:22   Link #6176
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I think it's quite low and petty to mock those people. They didn't choose the circumstance of their birth. It's not their fault... that they're related to Sarah Palin.
I see what you did.
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Old 2010-02-22, 00:20   Link #6177
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Toshiba invents postage stamp sized 1TB SSD
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Old 2010-02-22, 01:09   Link #6178
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Wow. That is what I call innovation!
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Old 2010-02-22, 03:40   Link #6179
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Seems nice but commercial versions in 2012 only
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Old 2010-02-22, 04:21   Link #6180
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Well of course, because that vast amount of flash memory is "really stable."
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