AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-08-26, 13:21   Link #621
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
The plot against Obama...

And I'm not surprised.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7581611.stm
I suspect we'll be hearing more from our local "white supremacist" loser blame-shifting wingnuts over the next 8 years if Mr. Obama wins.... :P

Dangerous and pathetic they are.... however, since the suspect who claims his buddies were up to this is a meth-head, his credibility is, um, mixed.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-26, 16:01   Link #622
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
But with historical context, if Barack Obama was assasinated, it would be the 1960 american races riots on steriods in the short term, a possible regression to pre 1950s race relations in the long term.
It would've been an ironic repeat of 1968, most epic year in the epic 60's, all over again.

Barack will be MLK and Robert Kennedy all-in-one. If people are skeptical of him and his sincerity while he is currently alive and running around campaigning to become President, then in the hypothetical assassination scenario he'll positively become the Messiah, the man who would've saved America had he lived, so on and so forth.

But of course, I'd hardly think somebody who's stupid enough to want to murder Obama is smart enough to carry it through, bar some crazy government-related tinfoil conspiracy or something. Then again, there was JFK...

More seriously though, a return to pre-1950's race oppression (let's not be nice here, it was an Apartheid, nothing less) is virtually impossible in today's USA. We are -- I hope -- far more enlightened in such matters than before and the much maligned "multicultural" obsession in public domain actually has this one big benefit of ensuring that kids will have at least this positive influence to counter whatever racism is in them.
Irenicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-26, 17:43   Link #623
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I want Obama to kick the ass of an armed assailant with his bare hands. Can you imagine the campaign spots after that?

"Barack Obama. Lawyer. Presidential Candidate. Goddamn Action Hero."
Or "Obama. Vote for him, or he'll punch you. In the face."
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-26, 18:33   Link #624
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubby42 View Post
Oh I fully agree that its bad that they are gaining ground but they'll never be in goverment, if the lib dems cant do it then why would a very small party be able to?

As for the comment about white english being affraid I'm kind of offended by that (I'm white english) and I'm sure most of my friends would be as well but having said that we do live in the northwest so there might be a difference (though I'd hope not).
Where's the offence from?
It's a true statement based on "example" BNP supporters that were in the local election booklet this year.
No one is gonna say 'i'm afraid of losing my heritage and more immigrants walking the streets' out loud, but there is the:
"The British National Party exists to secure a future for the indigenous peoples of these islands in the North Atlantic which have been our homeland for millennia"

Last time I checked, the future is still pretty secure for you guys, the royal family kinda ensure that; as well as when I step out of London and visit a 'shire' area... I'm pretty sure the future is pretty much safe for the white natives of Britain.

Short of you being a BNP supporter, or living in one of the cities where the ongrowing immigration presence is heavy and you're seeing more headscarfs, various religious hats, symbols, shops run by ethnic minorities, public transport driven by ethnic minorities, cultural awareness on major religious days that are not Christian (etc)
And are getting pissed off by it, then i'd understand you being offended.
But to say, "i'm offended by my term of 'white english' "- well it's not the Scots or Welsh that are complaining, they got more ' uniformed culture' than England, many agree there and most of all the ethnic minorities in the UK are in the 5 major cities of England.

Then also take into account that about 91% of the UK = white, then what other race/group do you want me to say that the BNP are aiming to nab new voters from? They play on people's insecurites in a damn good 'legit' way; to do that, there has to be some innate sense of fear/worry/anxiety, even if its only slight.

But yes, BNP point out the worries and anxieties, come in riding on a white horse with a 'we're here to keep it British! And first off we're gonna stop immigration!'
(Oh really?)
As for them never being fully in government, probably not, but i hate them gaining a seat in the London Assembly in the first place. That means they can influence (even a tiny bit) the decisions Boris wants to make for London, their voices have got louder and their suppoters stronger.
70,000 first votes for London mayor isn't a freaking joke, they came 5th, they weren't too far behind the Green Party who've been there for aaaages.
Results are here
They're not in the top 3, but they made the jump from the bottom five, they are in the "middle" ground with the green party and that is so not good...
(and yeesh, below them is the UKIP lot, tho they're more anti-EU, so no skin off my back per se)

Eitherway it was shocking number, they've been real busy in the last 4 years to say the least.
__________________

Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder
"If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia

Last edited by Mystique; 2008-08-26 at 18:55.
Mystique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 01:48   Link #625
stubby42
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK/Canada
I'm sorry, I miss read your statment as a catch all statment for white and english not specifically targeting the BNP but now were on the same page I agree.

I actually hold very little value in being proud of the country that your born in, I think its strange because most of the time the ideal rarely matches reality. The goverment is there to serve the needs of the people so if it isnt serving my needs and I'm unlikely to get them to change what their doing then I might as well move to another country where a goverment serves my needs better.

I'm moving to canada, though to be honnest its probably worse for racism than the uk.
stubby42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 03:59   Link #626
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubby42 View Post
I actually hold very little value in being proud of the country that your born in, I think its strange because most of the time the ideal rarely matches reality. The goverment is there to serve the needs of the people so if it isnt serving my needs and I'm unlikely to get them to change what their doing then I might as well move to another country where a goverment serves my needs better.

I'm moving to canada, though to be honnest its probably worse for racism than the uk.
I haven't found Canada to contain anywhere near the animosity racism I sometimes encounter in the US... but obviously mileage varies considerably depending on where you stand and what time it is. The UK and Europe in general is having issues with the "un-integrated immigrant" syndrome which tends to foment racism.

I'm still pretty proud of of my country's Constitution and its Bill of Rights (and of most of the Founders) .... but I find today's incarnation much less appealing year by year. Gotta watch out for the "grass is greener" syndrome though.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 04:30   Link #627
stubby42
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK/Canada
It might be just where I was living, I was out in sasketchewan for 4 months so the racism was directed at natives most of the time.
stubby42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 08:41   Link #628
solomon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
Hmm, national pride is important. But sometimes it can grow into over bloated myth and hyperbole. That left unchecked can lead to dangerously short sighted nationalism.

For me, I love my country as an American. But when I say that; I'm proud for certain things and not so much for others. I also have no delusions of granduer saying that this country "is god's country" or is "the greatest in all the history of the world". As long as countries are ruled by men (as in humanity), and as long as men are infallible, I won't be fazed. After all America was created by the idealism and proactive exploration by some men, and the slaughter, exploitation and disenfranchisement of others at the same time, much like pretty much every country or civilization in history. This ties in with me being Afro American.
solomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 09:26   Link #629
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Hmm, national pride is important.
Why?

space filler
__________________
Ledgem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 12:05   Link #630
Echoes
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In line to confess his sins.
Age: 26
To paraphrase the late George Carlin: "Don't be a proud American, be happy to be an American."

I think pride should be reserved for things you've actually worked to accomplish, not accidents of birth.
__________________
Echoes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 12:46   Link #631
solomon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Why?

space filler
Good question. Well, I guess it depends on the person. I am an american as I have said before. The country was founded by men with certain principles and beliefs, namely that of pluralism in government representation. I agree with that belief and because the US played such an important role in institutionalizing it as an ethos to live by in this country, I think it's worthy of praise.

Some people love America because they believe that the people/country of America have some qualities that aren't evident in other cultures/societies/nations/locations and that those should be championed above all else. (I'm not endorsing that but it's a truth)

Now quite frankly, French/British nationals are going to have different opinions on why they love their country, and why their military/populace/government/beliefs are better than others. Some are more legit than others.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. For context, I am an African American. I have pride in coming from a people that fought so hard for equal rights in history. But I don't march lock step in what a considerably influential segment of black america say I should believe in or fight for. That's can be an extreme belief. I fear extremism, and patriotism can be taken to extremes (far too many examples, but a sterotypical one would be Imperial Japan). But if the pros outwiegh the cons for me, then I think that something like ancestry or national citizenship is a legitamite thing.

Everyone has different values at heart, and some values are tied up in a nation/culture/society. Championing those isn't wrong in principle. Like with Chinese, the chinese are a very collective society they also may value commuunism. Nothing wrong with that in principle at all. It's just when you excessively do so to the point of being closed minded, that scares me. (Certain Americans think that Communism is an evil that must be eradicated, for example. Well certain people may have the same feeling about democracy). I have no beef with japanese/korean/chinese americans who go and live in China if they want.

Anecdotelly; I am proud to be an American. But I know there is more to the world than america. I wouldn't snub moving to France or becoming a becoming a French national, if America did something that totally made me lose faith in why I should champion america (read the McCarthy era witch hunts). Again that's an EXTREME example.

Of course, some people would call me a defeatist anti-american whatever, not because they hate France. But because they think that they should stick by their country no matter what. As much as I try to look at things in rational perspective, keeping things at arms length (I'm a champion of that); I'm not a machine. And you can't expect everyone to look at a hard line, cold "cost/benefit" view of say RELIGION.

As of right now though, I don't have anything like that. I don't have any grevience with America to leave or abandon it. I won't make fun of people who want to do that. If met some who have. (as long as you have a legit reason). I also won't make fun of people who are willing to die for America (I have some problems with an overly rosy/simplified view of that) the fact is everyone is different at the end.

Even with all the problems that I am learning after looking at America in a global perspective. For me as an individual, I see no real reason to leave or even to give up faith in it. So if a nation/family/society or any collective group or rule of thought can benefit you or something you care about to a certain extent, in principle it's perfectly justified to be proud of it.
solomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 13:03   Link #632
solomon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
To give a simple view of my feelings about my country (for you americans who know comic strips)

It's Garfield and his relationship to Jon and Odie. He has serious beefs with both of em, and makes fights and conflict with both em. Or Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes fame) in relation to his parents, and his parents toward him. A LOT of cynicism and skeptism. But it's tempered by an unyielding if maybe sometimes wavering affection.

Ambivelant but not with out at least a certain amount of faith and love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
To paraphrase the late George Carlin: "Don't be a proud American, be happy to be an American."
I can get behind that quote at least.

Last edited by monir; 2008-08-27 at 20:26. Reason: Please use the "edit" button instead of double posting at a very short period of time!
solomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 19:23   Link #633
yezhanquan
Observer/Bookman wannabe
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 28
Seoul accuses woman defector of spying for North Korea
Posted: 28 August 2008 0300 hrs

SEOUL: South Korean prosecutors said on Wednesday they have arrested a North Korean defector accused of spying for her communist homeland, partly by offering sexual favours to military officers.

Won Jeong-Hwa, 35, is suspected of collecting information, including photographs and exact locations of key military installations and weapons systems, and handing it over to North Korean agents in China.

Investigators said one of her missions had been to locate Hwang Jang-Yop, the highest-ranking defector ever to come South. Hwang, who defected in 1997 and is still under police guard, is a harsh critic of the North's regime.

They said the North had also ordered Won to assassinate two South Koreans with links to the Seoul spy agency, using a poison-tipped needle. The plot did not go ahead.

Investigators said Won had served jail time for theft in the North and feared possible execution for committing another crime, stealing tons of zinc.

She fled to northeast China but returned home with the help of relatives and in 1998 became a spy for the North's espionage agency.

Her first task was to arrange the kidnap of North Korean defectors in China, they said.

In 2001 she entered South Korea and was tasked by its National Intelligence Service with touring military units to give anti-communist lectures. She used these occasions to make contact with army officers.

Prosecutors said only one officer, a 25-year-old army captain, was found to have offered classified information. He was also detained.

Won was arrested last month nearly two years after military intelligence began watching her, following a report by one of the officers she approached.

Her 63-year-old foster father has also been arrested on suspicion of helping her activities.

"There had been suspicion that spies may mingle with North Korean defectors...and this is the case that first brought it to light," said Kim Kyung-Soo, a senior prosecutor.

Some 14,180 North Koreans have escaped and resettled in South Korea since the end of the 1950-53 war, with the number growing rapidly in recent years.

All of them undergo checks before being resettled.

More than 4,500 people have been exposed as spies for the North since the peninsula was divided in 1948, officials at the Defence Security Command said.

The two Koreas have remained technically at war since their 1950-1953 conflict ended in an armistice. - AFP/de
__________________
Those from the lower levels cannot hope to surpass those from the upper.

RIP, Oba-chan (1935-2008)
yezhanquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 19:37   Link #634
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Disclaimer: I don't know you personally, so it could be that some my assertions will be probably very far off your actual situation, so forgive me if I make a grossly erroneous assumption. However, I feel confident enough that there'll be some truth in the assumptions I make, so bear with me

Quote:
I don't think there is anything wrong with that. For context, I am an African American. I have pride in coming from a people that fought so hard for equal rights in history. But I don't march lock step in what a considerably influential segment of black america say I should believe in or fight for. That's can be an extreme belief. I fear extremism, and patriotism can be taken to extremes (far too many examples, but a sterotypical one would be Imperial Japan). But if the pros outwiegh the cons for me, then I think that something like ancestry or national citizenship is a legitamite thing.
See, this is what I have a beef with, and I agree with Ledgem's questioning of your assertion about being proud of your nation (if I understood his implication right). You define yourself as an African American, but you, as a regular American person (I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm just pointing this out based on a general characteristic of American people), have very little or no relationship at all with Africa. Yes, perhaps the people that came before you were African slaves--but perhaps they weren't, even when the probability of them being slaves is high. Many generations have passed since Africans were legally slaves in the US, and the American society has changed a lot in the process, forming throughout the years a sort of more or less socially uniform (when compared to other societies) identification with many elements, the least of which is definitely not the country in itself.

You're not an African-American--you're an American. My mom was born in Kyrgyzstan (in the times of the Soviet Union) to a Kyrgyzstan mother of Kyrgyzstan family and an Argentinian father. My dad was born of Argentinian fathers, but both had direct Portuguese and Spanish heritage. Yet both my mom and my dad are Argentinian and can't conceive themselves as anything else. My mom came to the country when she was barely six years old, and though she still remembers her Russian, Spanish has been her language her whole life. I can't see her caring at all about the status of Kyrgyzstan more than she would care for any other country other than the one she truly feels she belongs to--Argentina. She even has had the chance of getting the Kyrgyzstan citizenship (since her former citizenship was Soviet) and she turned it down. Even so, should I consider her an Asian Argentinian? I'm sure Kyrgyzstan people have fought for something.

The problem with putting the word African when mentioning a black person and calling it "political correctness" is that it alienates them. It emphasizes their position as strangers, as outsiders. American people with European heritage are definitely not called European Americans--they're simply called Americans. But they force other Americans to put another adjective that differentiates them from the "pure" Americans. Which, by the way, don't exist.

In the same way, such "pride" for your origins is often used to draw a line between people--and in the case of "African Americans", I believe it is quite obvious who is "benefited" by this line.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.

Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-08-27 at 19:47.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 20:36   Link #635
solomon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
I am not angry at all by your views WK, all of them are valid.

I came to the conclusion long before that I am just another shade of american. I fully know that I hold no real connection culturally with Africa. I don't mock those who want to, it's part of an identity crisis that Afro-Americans face, but yes it is Incorrect.

I still say afro-american if only that it's the main line of heritage I have in terms of ancestry. Black and white and brown are terms that I don't agree with, primarily because I am not the color of Lelouch's suit, Roy Mustangs' Hair and shadows cast along the wall.
But that's a personal preference.


My main highlighting of me as an "afro-american" is that well, in a certain sense I AM different from white americans in terms of ancestry.

My pride is partly from having people in this country both black and white, christian and jew, man and women fought for the liberation and enfranchisement of afro-americans out of beliefs that the founders of the US country espoused.

(subjectively part of this part of a long and complex issue of identity of blacks/afro-americans and you are apt in a lot of views and correct on basic facts, it's something you kinda have to be a part of. Like even though I can highlight many similarities between plights of US aborigonies and those of certain latin american countries, I can't come to the same conclusions and feelings If i have not lived their lives. NO FLAMES HERE. just pointing out where this line of subjectivity begins.)

To play devil's advocate, are you not proud of being Argentinan or having Kyrgyztan roots?

Last edited by solomon; 2008-08-27 at 20:54.
solomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 21:05   Link #636
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
Black and white and brown are terms that I don't agree with, primarily because I am not the color of Lelouch's suit, Roy Mustangs' Hair and shadows cast along the wall.
But that's a personal preference.
Well, you can't deny racial features. "Black" people, while not as black as Lelouch's suit, have darker skin than "white" people. Perhaps the terms are not objectively correct, but they have a more or less agreed signification and are, in and of themselves, and as long as you don't attach any sort of valuation to them, not discriminative by any means--that is, the fact that a couple of my friends are of Japanese descent and have slanted eyes does not condition my response towards them. Terms like black, white or brown do nothing more than make a general description on the physical features of any given person, and say nothing about the character or the status of the person itself--which is, by and large, what truly matters (which is sort of the point I wanted to make in my prior post--what your ancestors did does not matter, what matters is what you, as an individual, do). However, pseudo-terms like "African American" carry other connotations that are not devoid of a (rather strong, if you ask me) degree of inherent discrimination and segregation.

Quote:
To play devil's advocate, are you not proud of being Argentinan or having Kyrgyztan roots?
To be honest, I have a hard time understanding what "being proud" means. There are way too many problems with our country to really "feel proud" about it. But then again, many countries worldwide have such issues--and many of them aren't direct responsibility of the countries themselves. And I would probably feel the same way if I were an US citizen.

And about Kyrgyzstan, I really could not feel more detached from it. I hardly know anything about it other than it's next to Russia and China and it's very cold in winter.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 21:23   Link #637
solomon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Well, you can't deny racial features. "Black" people, while not as black as Lelouch's suit, have darker skin than "white" people. Perhaps the terms are not objectively correct, but they have a more or less agreed signification and are, in and of themselves, and as long as you don't attach any sort of valuation to them, not discriminative by any means--that is, the fact that a couple of my friends are of Japanese descent and have slanted eyes does not condition my response towards them. Terms like black, white or brown do nothing more than make a general description on the physical features of any given person, and say nothing about the character or the status of the person itself--which is, by and large, what truly matters (which is sort of the point I wanted to make in my prior post--what your ancestors did does not matter, what matters is what you, as an individual, do). However, pseudo-terms like "African American" carry other connotations that are not devoid of a (rather strong, if you ask me) degree of inherent discrimination and segregation.



To be honest, I have a hard time understanding what "being proud" means. There are way too many problems with our country to really "feel proud" about it. But then again, many countries worldwide have such issues--and many of them aren't direct responsibility of the countries themselves. And I would probably feel the same way if I were an US citizen.

And about Kyrgyzstan, I really could not feel more detached from it. I hardly know anything about it other than it's next to Russia and China and it's very cold in winter.
I would point out that Afro-American are is as much a psudo term as black. Same as German-American, Irish-American when compared with white, cause almost all caucasians have shed identification with German or Irish or British culture.

In reference to your feelings on Kyrg, they are perfectly understandable and actually are similar to my feelings about Africa.

(note; I really appreciate the chance to talk with you on this, but I propose we stop this particular exchange cause it's getting wildly off topic)
solomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-27, 21:45   Link #638
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Actually..... you don't hear it as much.. but terms like Irish-American or German-American are still used occasionally (though they're certainly fading).

Hyphenated-American as term is a mixed bag. Many who identify themselves thus are proud of their heritage, be it simply ancestral or be it bits of culture they retain through their families. Others use it as racial coding as WanderingKnights suggests.

and.. .oh crud, solomon beat me to it and I agree, lets sally onward back to news...
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-28, 06:21   Link #639
mg1942
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Another explosive news on Barack Obama...


Born in the U.S.A.?
By: KEITH PHUCAS, Times Herald Staff
08/25/2008


PHILADELPHIA - A Lafayette Hill attorney filed a lawsuit in federal court Thursday challenging Sen. Barack Obama's claim to United States citizenship. The action seeks to remove the Democratic candidate from the November ballot.

To be eligible to serve as U.S. president, a person must be born in this country. According to Obama's birth certificate, which his campaign posted on its Internet site in June to quell rumors that he is foreign born, the Illinois senator was born in Hawaii on Aug. 6, 1961.

On Thursday, Philip Berg filed a temporary restraining order in federal court to bar Obama from running for president, claiming the Democratic candidate was actually born in Africa.

"We really don't believe he was born in Hawaii," Berg said. "We think he was born in Kenya."

http://www.timesherald.com/site/news...id=33380&rfi=6
mg1942 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-08-28, 06:31   Link #640
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 24
...

.....



....

The lengths some people go.

Jeez, if you can't beat him, say he's born in Africa eh.
Irenicus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
current affairs, discussion, international, news

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.