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Old 2010-05-06, 17:28   Link #7101
Autumn Demon
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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I'm loving the BBC's results page; I wish U.S. House of Representatives elections had such coverage (sadly no one cares).

The exit polls are stunning. Predictions are showing the Lib Dems may actually lose seats. Conservatives are doing amazing, and Labour seats plus Lib Dems seats may be less than a majority. Even though the exit polls are showing a Conservative plurality, the swing from Labour to Conservative in the two reported seats so far is gigantic
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Old 2010-05-06, 17:39   Link #7102
Fahd
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It'll be interesting to see how well the actual results compare to the exit polls. There are likely to be local fluctuations, but as you say there's been a huge swing in the first two seats that have been called.
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Old 2010-05-06, 19:22   Link #7103
Autumn Demon
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Exit polls are proving horrible indicators. Conservatives picked up their first gain on a 10% swing from Labour, bigger than Thatcher's. Looking like a Conservative majority. Lib Dems are doing better than the exit polls indicated too, but still not as good as expected.

Horrible about some people who showed up before 10:00 but weren't allowed to vote. And the not having enough ballot papers. (wtf?)
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Old 2010-05-06, 19:51   Link #7104
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Isn't part of the censoring issue government-based, though, by way of the FCC? Granted, I'm really only operating on hearsay since the subject never caught my interest.
Are you talking about Janet Jackson's breast (aka the "wardrobe malfunction")? Broadcast television is treated differently from other media because broadcasters are licensed by the Federal government to use regulated radio frequencies that are considered to be owned collectively by the public. As a result, broadcasters must conform to more stringent rules than providers of subscription television services like most cable channels. In general, the FCC takes the position that if you paid for a television channel you've agreed to accept whatever it shows. Free, over-the-air broadcasters are held to a different standard because viewers have not made a choice to view that material in the same way they've chosen to subscribe or not subscribe to HBO.

None of this applies to material transmitted across the Internet, phone lines, or any other non-broadcast service. (The "network neutrality" debate concerns these services.) You (and I) might disagree about whether the rules should also apply to broadcast television but, to be honest, while I'm not upset about Janet showing off her assets, it had to have been pretty shocking to more conservative people who just happened to have been watching the Super Bowl. (I'm guessing those people weren't all that happy to have their ten-year-olds watching Janet rub her butt up against Justin's member either.)

As for "hearsay," these are complex issues that are generally obscured by rhetoric when discussed by relatively uninformed people on the Internet. That said, I believe these are the issues that people in your generation will be facing long after I'm in the ground. (I agree that debt and environmental issues are also important, as well. I'm just more concerned about freedom of expression because human knowledge and understanding depends on healthy debate. Censorship has become an important issue even in less obviously related fields like climate change and medicine.)

As for the election, I'm holding off from commenting until we see more results. I will say that the decline in LibDem support in comparison to the pre-election polls is hardly uncommon. When elections are close, the problem of "wasted" votes becomes more urgent. Voters may choose to support their second-choice candidates if they think their first-choices are unlikely to win. In my own research, I showed that, during the period from 1955-1974, support for the Liberals had a much smaller effect on outcomes because they did best in seats that were safe for one of the major parties. In competitive seats, people tended to stick to the major parties rather than "waste" their votes. Nowadays the LibDems have much greater popular support than they did in the period I studied, but the barriers to representation in Parliament posed by "first-past-the-post" systems still discourages waverers from supporting them. (For American readers, the debates over the role of Ralph Nader in the past two presidential elections is relevant here.)
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Old 2010-05-06, 19:58   Link #7105
Vexx
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"...relatively uninformed people on the Internet..."

Pretty much sums up the problems involved with discussing topics of public discourse.
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Old 2010-05-06, 20:03   Link #7106
Joojoobees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
That's a network doing the censoring, not the government. Just because people have a right to say what they want does not mean a private media company has to show it. Please show one instance of someone in the US being arrested and charged with showing a depiction of Muhammad.
Not related to Muhammad, but still free speech:
Amy Goodman and Democracy Now! Producers File Lawsuit Over RNC Arrests
Quote:
The suit is filed against the Minneapolis and St. Paul police departments, the Ramsey County Sheriff and unidentified Secret Service personnel. The lawsuit challenges the policies and conduct of law enforcement during the RNC that resulted in the arrests, one of dozens among journalists arrested in St. Paul.
Essentially the police arrested journalists covering the event. When additional journalists attempted to cover the police crackdown on journalists, they were, in turn, arrested.
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Old 2010-05-06, 20:13   Link #7107
ChainLegacy
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You have my complete agreement regarding it being an important issue. I haven't looked into censoring in media very much, but I definitely recognize the dangers it can bring in that the free flow of unbiased information can be reduced or eliminated at the whim of those in charge. In fact, I believe this is already the case in the United States as a result of corporate media, political parties, and the super-rich converging towards their collective interests. The internet is the last refuge, but of course they are trying to take that away from us too.

I don't blame people if they found that half time show to be offensive; I personally didn't care, but as an event watched by children I can see it as justified. Even so, while I don't mean to commit the 'slippery slope' fallacy, I can't help but be a little worried when a government agency (which has no representatives voted in by the people, making matters even worse) can wield that kind of power.
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Old 2010-05-06, 21:15   Link #7108
Joojoobees
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Rocket Feul contamination in American communities

More info: http://www.livescience.com/health/05...cket_fuel.html
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Old 2010-05-06, 21:21   Link #7109
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
I don't blame people if they found that half time show to be offensive; I personally didn't care, but as an event watched by children I can see it as justified. Even so, while I don't mean to commit the 'slippery slope' fallacy, I can't help but be a little worried when a government agency (which has no representatives voted in by the people, making matters even worse) can wield that kind of power.
I found it (and most SB HT shows) artistically offensive and lacking in content, do I get to harumph, too?

The psychotic part to this is that the same entities don't say a word about some of the most gruesome slaughter imaginable on prime-time television - THAT is okay for kids (oh we put a label on it, eh?). But a half-second of skin that you'd miss if you blinked has knickers wadded up by all the sorts who wear knickers...
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Old 2010-05-06, 21:32   Link #7110
germanturkey
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Students wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

and the land of the....
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Old 2010-05-06, 22:30   Link #7111
aohige
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Is it like - as long as you don't do anything against any of the 4 freedoms, you can say whatever you want?
No, you do not have the right to say "whatever you want".
But within constraints of the legal system, you have the right to express your views, regardless of how extreme or unconventional it may be.

But it's not literally the same as "I can say whatever I want I'm an American".
Many Americans have this attitude, but it's not entirely true.
You do not have the right to make a statement that goes outside the boundary of law.
(such as screaming a false "fire" in a theater, or making statements that threatens to kill another human being)
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Old 2010-05-06, 23:31   Link #7112
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
That sort of story is an example of an on-going problem in the US K-12 system and is the result of the "peter principle" (being promoted to your first level of incompetence") as applied to many school administration officials. If you read the story, the *district* of the school is slamdunking the school administrators for the action.

Lets face it, any *thinking* person could have worked this out... but many school administrators *fail* that little brain check -- and end up being properly labeled as buffoons in the press.

Mexican-Americans should be proud of their heritage... but I wonder if the idiot would have collared the boys wearing US flag shirts if they had been Latino.... (probably not).
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Old 2010-05-07, 00:24   Link #7113
Irenicus
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Wait, wait, wait -- BBC is saying the Lib Dems are losing seats? That exit poll is total bull. What about the whole Cleggmania and the TV debates...? I really don't believe Cameron would have such a wave going for him that even the Lib Dems would lose seats. He is, after all, no Obama, as the Brits themselves like to say of all three major candidates.


But enough of that, Der Spiegel got a very interesting little piece harkening back to the failures of the Copenhagen conference. They claim they got their hands on an audio recording of the pivotal moments which rendered the summit a failure.

Quote:
The West, Sarkozy said, had pledged to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 80 percent. "And in return, China, which will soon be the biggest economic power in the world, says to the world: Commitments apply to you, but not to us."

Sarkozy, gaining momentum, then said: "This is utterly unacceptable!" And then the French president stoked the diplomatic conflict even further when he said: "This is about the essentials, and one has to react to this hypocrisy!"

A hush came over the room. Even the mobile phones stopped ringing. It was Friday, Dec. 18, 2009, at about 4 p.m. That was the moment when the world leaders meeting in Copenhagen abandoned their efforts to save the world.

- Der Spiegel
My primary interest in it is actually wanting to know what world leaders actually say in those forbidding closed doors and how they say them, in a kind of an authorial interest in the manners people speak in different situations. So there really wasn't a diabolical orgy in a smoke-filled* room after all...?

*I know, I know, climate change summit = no smoking, fool.

More pertinent to the larger political point is the European-Asian divide, however, and the genuine frustrations of Sarko and Merkel on China's arrogance and India's duplicity. Also very interesting is Der Spiegel's bold claim that Obama practically betrayed his European allies to save face and salvage a worthless protocol out of it.
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Old 2010-05-07, 01:07   Link #7114
Fahd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Wait, wait, wait -- BBC is saying the Lib Dems are losing seats? That exit poll is total bull. What about the whole Cleggmania and the TV debates...? I really don't believe Cameron would have such a wave going for him that even the Lib Dems would lose seats. He is, after all, no Obama, as the Brits themselves like to say of all three major candidates.
The exit poll looks to be quite accurate. There were a large number of undecided voters, and I guess they went for two major parties. In any case it looks like we're going to have a hung Parliament (i.e. no party achieves an absolute majority), which means either we'll get a minority government, or coalition government. This will probably take a few days to work itself out.

I think I'm going to bed now, so no more bar-chart updates till this afternoon .
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Old 2010-05-07, 02:28   Link #7115
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
My primary interest in it is actually wanting to know what world leaders actually say in those forbidding closed doors and how they say them, in a kind of an authorial interest in the manners people speak in different situations. So there really wasn't a diabolical orgy in a smoke-filled* room after all...?

*I know, I know, climate change summit = no smoking, fool.

More pertinent to the larger political point is the European-Asian divide, however, and the genuine frustrations of Sarko and Merkel on China's arrogance and India's duplicity. Also very interesting is Der Spiegel's bold claim that Obama practically betrayed his European allies to save face and salvage a worthless protocol out of it.
The problem is neither the french, german, US or chinese government is very happy with a set of hard limits. Neither of them actually wants the strong protocol. Those leaders use different PR strategies to give themselves a certain profile or public image. On non-public events they will use a language that while being coherent with their PR clearly shows what they actually want. Thus, saying the truth through a smoke screen. So, this is just sort of a play - something to entertain the masses and the poor countries (with some of them coincidentally being most affected by climate change). The bystander cannot blame them for utter disregard of climate change, they are just not united in their views. That looks better, since everyone can save their faces when going home, even though nothing was achieved. (btw. I consider Der Spiegel strongly biased. They often exaggerate to make their point - just to have a story...)
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Old 2010-05-07, 02:41   Link #7116
Vexx
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Basically.. your world leaders and power brokers aren't going to "believe it" until their summer villas are under water, on fire, or buried in ice depening on how the climate system chaotically spins to its new "region of stability".

For once I have trouble thinking of an analogy.... this may one day BE the comparative analogy.
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Old 2010-05-07, 06:27   Link #7117
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahd View Post
The exit poll looks to be quite accurate. There were a large number of undecided voters, and I guess they went for two major parties. In any case it looks like we're going to have a hung Parliament (i.e. no party achieves an absolute majority), which means either we'll get a minority government, or coalition government. This will probably take a few days to work itself out.

I think I'm going to bed now, so no more bar-chart updates till this afternoon.
Thanks for the chart updates. Really cute mascot for the Tories, but I protest: Why Pikachu, a lead character, for the Liberal Democrats?

It's around 11.30am now in Britain, and it's as good as official — it's the first hung Parliament in Britain since 1974. With only 28 seats left to go, it's statistically impossible for the Conservatives to form a majority government with their current tally of 292 seats (326 seats needed to win).

The Lib Dems have indeed emerged surprisingly poorer with the loss of five seats, but Nick Clegg now gets to be kingmaker. So, as expected, it's not a done deal yet — Gordon Brown's Labour might yet stay in power if he manages to cobble together a coalition government. Mr Clegg has claimed several times now that he believes the party with the most seats should form the next government. We'll soon see whether he's a man of his word.
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Old 2010-05-07, 08:09   Link #7118
SeijiSensei
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Market Drop Fueled by a Crisis, Anxiety and an Error

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/bu...e&ref=business

Quote:
Combine one part nervous traders, one part Greek crisis and one part trader error. Stir in one part central bank complacency. Bring to boil. Panic.

That combination produced one of the wildest days ever in financial markets, with the Dow Jones industrial average, at one point, down almost 1,000 points while the euro sank to its lowest level in more than a year. There were substantial declines in emerging markets, whose economies had seemed to be booming, and in developed markets fearful of renewed recessions.

Even though a substantial part of the worst plunge appeared to be linked to a trader error — one $40 stock fell for a time to one penny — prices had fallen around the world even before such mistakes began to happen.

It appears that investors are again growing more hesitant to own assets like stocks and bonds, particularly since many now cost far more than they did only a few months ago. Another sharp retrenchment by investors, consumers and businesses could threaten the current global recovery by choking off financing and new orders for companies.
There was a brief moment when Accenture sold for pennies rather than the $40/share it sold for earlier in the day! Here's the graph for Proctor and Gamble. Rumors abound that a single trader selling P&G accidentally entered "billions" when he or she meant to enter "millions" that led to the abrupt decline in stock values.

The fall in the euro couldn't come at a better time for me personally, as I'm taking my daughter to Italy for a graduation present next month. I've been watching the euro/dollar exchange rate closely over the past couple of weeks. I think it's probably time to lock in the current low value, but since the EU financial crisis shows no real sign of resolution, I keep watching and waiting.
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Old 2010-05-07, 08:57   Link #7119
TinyRedLeaf
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Whoever bought those P&G stocks for pennies is going to be laughing to the bank in due time. (EDIT: If it's too good to be true, it probably is. )

I've been watching the market too. It's a damn shame I've already committed most of my positions, so I don't have much spare cash to profit on this dip.

And, oh, congrats to your daughter. She's graduated already? Time flies.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2010-05-07 at 11:53. Reason: They were cancelled, as pointed out below. Aw shucks.
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Old 2010-05-07, 11:38   Link #7120
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Whoever bought those P&G stocks for pennies is going to be laughing to the bank in due time.
those trades will be cancel
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