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Old 2010-05-31, 11:12   Link #7501
bladeofdarkness
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its mostly true ledgem, except one thing
the six day war happened in 1967, while israel was formed in 1948
there WAS a war in 1948, in which the arab states around it tried to destroy israel, but it was not the Six day war
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Old 2010-05-31, 11:31   Link #7502
JMvS
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Israel needs to stop stealing Palestinian land? Exactly when was Palestine a functioning country during the past 70 years? When has Palestine tried to do anything other than lob rockets at Israel, launch suicide attacks in Pizzeria's, and capture Israeli soldiers only to torture and kill them later?

Israel has turned a plot of desert land into a civilization. Too bad the monkeys that surround them don't have the brains or strength to do the same. They'd rather rape, kill, slaughter others like they have been for centuries.
Well yeah, pretty much like how the settlers in America came into a virgin land and made it into the great nation it is today, too bad for the "savages". Discounting the fact that this place was already the cradle of our common civilization, with many of the world's most ancient town and cities, which names and past are being extirpated and erased.

But you know, those "monkeys" are learning the lessons of History, and are using the methods which were proven by the very founders of Israel: namely terrorism, international lobbying and posing as victims. All of those were of great importance in the creation of Israel (look into the history of the British Mandate on Palestine), so why not them becoming the equally glorious foundations of a Palestinian State?


And yes, the clock is ticking, for the sustainability of the current situation is far from guaranteed.
A blooming desert? Well yes, if you neglect the fact that in this area everybody is fighting over water, which is why Israel occupied the Golan for so long, that the Dead Sea is receding, with the Jordan River being used at the utmost, and that Gaza no longer has freshwater in it's wells, since inland excessive pumping has lead to the coastal water tables becoming salty.
And so tells us comparative history, at least if we consider natural the outcome of two much older settlements, which tried to establish their own separate highly civilized states on a cultural (and ethnic basis), but more or less failed, namely Rhodesia and South Africa.

As long as the Right of the Stronger is on their side, good for them, but ultimately, what awaits them is either mingling, being absorbed, leaving or getting crushed, for they won't be able to live forever behind their great wall, ignoring their immediate neighbors while commercing with the rest of the world.
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Old 2010-05-31, 11:42   Link #7503
killer3000ad
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
P.S
i don't know how to attach this video link, so i'll just attach the link
http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=722138
its a NV video recording taken from an israeli helicopter above the ship when it was boarded
the video shows exactly what happened to israeli soldiers who boarded the ship (one gets thrown off a balcony, another gets attacked by a crowd with rods)
its VERY clearly not a peaceful demonstration
its an all out riot

hope you get a sense of WHY shots ended up being fired
English version available now-


Another point of view available-
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Old 2010-05-31, 11:44   Link #7504
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
As long as the Right of the Stronger is on their side, good for them, but ultimately, what awaits them is either mingling, being absorbed or crushed.
people keep saying this bit of nonsense
WHY ?
WHY do you think that ?
when has there EVER been a time when israel's military power, population size, economy, industry and trade connections been greater ?
was israel's existence more certain in 1948 ?
1967 ?
people have been saying israel is temporery for decades, and its only gotten stronger while its neighbors grew weaker
hell, it just got into the OECD this month
why do people keep thinking that its a temporary state ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by killer3000ad View Post
English version available now-
Spoiler for Size:

Another point of view available-
Spoiler for size:

THIS
SO MUCH
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:01   Link #7505
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Well yeah, pretty much like how the settlers in America came into a virgin land and made it into the great nation it is today, too bad for the "savages". Discounting the fact that this place was already the cradle of our common civilization, with many of the world's most ancient town and cities, which names and past are being extirpated and erased.
This is the only part worth responding to in my opinion. The Indians were always at war with each other. They would offer virgins as sacrifices throughout Central/South America. They were savages. They never even had a written language. Were some tribes taken advantage of in a horrible way by the Europeans? Yes they were. No one should be able to deny that. Was everything rosy and sweet here before the Europeans came? Not on your life.

I would also say, that even with America's messed up history, we still have done far more good in our brief 230+ year existence to the world, than any other nation in history. We're not perfect. No nation is perfect, and if they're even as young as ours, there is going to be bad parts in their/our past. We've even had a bloody civil war not too long ago over the direction of our own country.

If the Middle East TRULY wanted peace, they could have it. But they do not wish peace. The rulers in Iran, Syria and others incite violence so that they can remain in power. Women have very few rights in the ME. Often times they are stoned to death for just being seen in public with a man who is not their husband/father. They are monkeys, and history proves to me that they are. There is nothing civilized about them. Even if Israel did not exist, there would be no peace in that part of the world. And Palestine would not be even a fraction of it's neighbors.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:12   Link #7506
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Ever been to Israel? You'll notice that their road signs often come with three languages printed: Hebrew, English, and Arabic. Pray tell, why on Earth would they have signs in Arabic if they were trying to 100% "Judaize" their country?
Wow. I didn't know that. All I know is my country has almost every sign in 4 languages (English, Chinese, Malay and Indian), and the cost of these signs, combined that they were refurbishing them every 4-6 years, cost a chunk of our GDP. The last one I heard costed SGD$4.1 million.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
people keep saying this bit of nonsense
WHY ?
WHY do you think that ?
when has there EVER been a time when israel's military power, population size, economy, industry and trade connections been greater ?
was israel's existence more certain in 1948 ?
1967 ?
people have been saying israel is temporery for decades, and its only gotten stronger while its neighbors grew weaker
hell, it just got into the OECD this month
why do people keep thinking that its a temporary state ?
Until space travel becomes a commodity, people will be fighting over that piece of land.

Besides, on that bolded point, demographics show that it IS indeed bigger. The GDP (Purchasing Power per Parity - meaning the ability to BUY things) per capita (per head), is $28k, and that is almost 5k more than Saudi Arabia ($23k), while Syria is $4k, Egypt is $6k, and Iran is $11k. So each Israeli is a whole lot more richer than any of its ME counterparts. Sure it is per capita, but it shows that the Israelis are more capable of feeding themselves WITHOUT OIL as compared to their ME counterparts.

The reason why Israel grows stronger is to maintain competitiveness on a global economic scale as they don't have much natural resources to export, which can be used to barter for subsistence they don't have like grain. Their Arab rivals, on the other hand, rely on oil to feed themselves, thus it creates a "grudge mentality" towards mother nature and they do not innovate on the primary resource : people.

Don't worry if you don't understand this : it is macroeconomics, and bloody confusing subject to study.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:17   Link #7507
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You know, this actually happened in history. It's called the Holocaust. Only instead of being in an "open air prison" Jews were uprooted from their homes and were thrown into death camps, where the actual goal was to actively kill them. Ever visited one of them? It's a very chilling, very disturbing place. There are ovens designed to fit people inside, and there are rooms that were meant to gas people by the dozens. You can even see scratch marks in the ceilings from people who were trying to claw a hole open. That was a dark side of humanity, and thank God we haven't seen anything like that since.
Yeah I've visited one of those jolly places (of which they didn't have a monopoly, say a few millions Poles, Russians and Gypsies). So since what is inflicted on Palestinians is only remotely similar to it, it is acceptable?

Quote:
Well, do you know what happened after that was all shut down and World War II came to an end?

The UN gave the Jews the land that they're currently on.
Correction: the UN condoned for the Jews to take land from the Arabs.

Quote:
They built it up. Then all of the Arab nations around Israel tried to come down on the newly-founded Israel in an event known as the Six Day War. Israel beat them back and took some land in the process. You know - just like every other country does when they defeat a nation that declared war on them. Since then Israel has given almost all of that land back to the Arabs.
As pointed earlier the 6 day war was about 20 years later, what happened in 1948 is that the surrounding Arab countries attacked what they felt as an aggressor, Israel won and as a result occupied all of what would have been the Palestinian State. Now, do you seriously think "occupying a territory against a UN resolution, thus disrupting state-forming" has nothing to do with the current situation and was done in full respect of the UN decisions?

Quote:
I have sympathy for the Palestinians, but I'm not really sure why they aren't doing more for themselves. If the land that they currently live on is inhospitable, move. They continue to cling to a hope and dream that they can destroy Israel and make Israel theirs. Aside from the fact that it's unrealistic, it only leads to further conflict.
Well a lot of the more educated do move away. But for the masses, they have nothing but the hope of retaking what was taken from them.

Quote:
The governments of the world (most specifically Britain, I believe) designated the current land of Israel to be what it was. The Palestinians arguably had their land stolen from them, but it was not under the directive of the Jews. It's a tragedy, but just as the United States won't uproot its cities and massive populace to return land to the Native Americans, it's a little late to return land to the Palestinians. Time to move on.
Let's say that a few decades of Jewish activism and terrorism in the area did helped for this to happen. And a key difference with the American example, is that these events are way more recent, on a more constrained territory, and that the "reservations" do not concern minute populations on the brink of extinction, but millions of peoples versus a few millions.
And anyway, neither side is substantially ready to "move on", as those with might on their side keep munching the others remaining territory.

Quote:
Ever been to Israel? You'll notice that their road signs often come with three languages printed: Hebrew, English, and Arabic. Pray tell, why on Earth would they have signs in Arabic if they were trying to 100% "Judaize" their country?
Actually they are 100% judaizing the country, since those multilingual road signs are being removed.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:25   Link #7508
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Actually they are 100% judaizing the country, since those multilingual road signs are being removed.
Actually they can follow Singapore :

1. Malay is the national langauge.
2. English is the First Language taught in school, and primary language used as landmark indicators. Ethnic names of places and things are in small print, and every subject is taught in English, other than second language subjects.
3. Anyone who complains about it (using bumiputera, Malay originated soil, etc as excuses) get a free coffee session with the Internal Security Department. Severe cases will result in free meals and lodging within Whitley Road Detention Centre for indefinite periods of time.

Now who says the usage of force doesn't solve problems?

And that is why I said both sides in the Mideast conflict are made up of stupid hardliners with egos to upkeep. Why can't they play nice for once?
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:28   Link #7509
killer3000ad
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Another one straight from the activists' own camera footage.
Stabbity fun!

It's a bit iffy looking, can't quite tell if there's a knife there, though the downward stabbing like motion gives that impression.
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Last edited by killer3000ad; 2010-05-31 at 14:13.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:36   Link #7510
bladeofdarkness
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and the sad part is ... no one would care.
@SH
remember how you said a sec ago about
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The point is about restraint because you believe in mercy and the sanctity of life. You can't drop a 2000 pound JDAM in a terrorist HQ which sits in the middle of a place full of innocent people. You send in SpecOps with AST rocket launchers to take it down.
.
you see what happens when you do
your enemies exploit it, AND world public opinion supports them despite of facts
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:44   Link #7511
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and the sad part is ... no one would care.
@SH
remember how you said a sec ago about

you see what happens when you do
your enemies exploit it, AND world public opinion supports them despite of facts
Too bad for the facts and their opinions then. At least I am not dumb as they are not to read more.

I could do them a favour by cutting my wrist and acting emo over that situation, but that wasted 10 seconds of my life making deep and painful enough cuts on my wrist.

Besides, I can show footage of innocent lives around the house being unharmed. What can those terrorists do? In the eyes of the world, they are just camping in there using people as human shields. If that doesn't work, then too bad. At least I saved the lives of the innocent, and that allows me to sleep better at night than the recognition the world gives me.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:47   Link #7512
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
This is the only part worth responding to in my opinion. The Indians were always at war with each other.
So you equate war with lack of civilization? What are you, a pacifist? So what of the centuries of war in Europe? USA itself was founded with the help of the Revolutionary War, suffered a horrific Civil War, proceeded with the Indian Wars, and participated in two World Wars, engaged in a protracted Cold War that occasionally erupted into hot wars like Korea and Vietnam, and continues to provide aid that makes Israel's military superiority possible. How is that any less war-like?

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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
They would offer virgins as sacrifices throughout Central/South America. They were savages.
Many old world civilizations had human sacrifices, including Israel, Greece, and Rome. Were they savages, or the cradle of Western Civilization?

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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
They never even had a written language.
OK. So does the lack of a written language justify invasion from a foreign power and the destruction of a culture? Is the only worthwhile culture one with a written language? So I guess slavery of Africans were justified? What of the Mayans? They had a written language. Yet that did not stop the Spanish from taking over. So I suppose, by your standards, this makes the USA better than Mexico, right?

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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Was everything rosy and sweet here before the Europeans came? Not on your life.
Things were not rosy and sweet in Europe either. How is this even relevant to the discussion at hand?

Last edited by Upscaled; 2010-05-31 at 13:01.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:49   Link #7513
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Yeah I've visited one of those jolly places (of which they didn't have a monopoly, say a few millions Poles, Russians and Gypsies). So since what is inflicted on Palestinians is only remotely similar to it, it is acceptable?
It's not a question of acceptable or not. You asked "what if a Muslim country did this to the Jews" and I pointed to an example of where something similar happened to the Jews, albeit not at the hands of a Muslim country, and a bit more extreme. The point I made is that the Jews didn't stand around asking Germany to give them all sorts of things, they moved from their original homes to a place of new opportunity. Very unlike the Palestinians...

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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Correction: the UN condoned for the Jews to take land from the Arabs.
Clarification: it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
As pointed earlier the 6 day war was about 20 years later, what happened in 1948 is that the surrounding Arab countries attacked what they felt as an aggressor, Israel won and as a result occupied all of what would have been the Palestinian State. Now, do you seriously think "occupying a territory against a UN resolution, thus disrupting state-forming" has nothing to do with the current situation and was done in full respect of the UN decisions?
Oh, I don't know... the UN wasn't exactly coming to Israel's rescue, and Israel was acting out of its own self-interest. It's tragic, but then so is war and conflict. Israel's actions were understandable, although I wouldn't say they were justified.

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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
And a key difference with the American example, is that these events are way more recent, on a more constrained territory, and that the "reservations" do not concern minute populations on the brink of extinction, but millions of peoples versus a few millions.
What relativism! I'm sure the Native Americans would be quite insulted!

My point still stands - you can't ask Israel to get up and leave, because at this point too many people are living there and too much is entrenched there. The kindergarten fairness solution would be to have Israel give back everything, but then that's not fair to the Israelis and the people who rely on Israel for things. The "ideal" solution would be for both groups of people to mesh and share, but now there's too much resentment and mistrust.

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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Actually they are 100% judaizing the country, since those multilingual road signs are being removed.
I think you misread the article. The road signs will still be tri-lingual. However, according to the article (which is two weeks away from being one year old) the signs identify places by totally different names - so Jerusalem is identified as Jerusalem in English (and with the equivalent in Hebrew), but "al-Quds" in Arabic, which I presume is what the Muslim faith identifies the area as (and that is not an equivalent to "Jerusalem"). In attempting to unify their populations, it makes total sense that they would want to have all locations called the same thing. Can you imagine what it would be like if our cities were called different things among different ethnic groups? Chaos.

Granted, it's understandable that the Arabic populations would feel slighted by that. It's not just a city name, after all, it has a religious/cultural importance. Still, in terms of unification you need to have a standardized name. I somehow get the feeling that they wouldn't feel any better if the city were named something totally different, that had no significance in Jewish or Muslim faith, either.

I'm also not claiming that Israel is in love with its Arabic population, and that they don't discriminate against them. But realistically speaking, they're not forcefully moving them out as you seem to be implying that they're trying to do.
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:59   Link #7514
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Upscaled View Post
So you equate war with lack of civilization? What are you, a pacifist? So what of the centuries of war in Europe? USA itself was founded with the help of the Revolutionary War, suffered a horrific Civil War, proceeded with the Indian Wars, and participated in two World Wars, engaged in a protracted Cold War. How is that any less war-like?
Please note that in their wars, they eat their enemies. Since when does the Civil War people do that?

Quote:
Many old world civilizations had human sacrifices, including Israel, Greece, and Rome. Were they savages, or the cradle of Western Civilization?
Rome's human sacrifice was abolished by Pliny. Most Western civilisation's practice of human sacrifice are abolished by their leaders.

During the age of exploration, the Natives are still practicing it and their leaders still encourage it. See the difference?

Quote:
OK. So does the lack of a written language justify invasion from a foreign power and the destruction of a culture? Is the only worthwhile culture one with a written language? So I guess slavery of Africans were justified? What of the Mayans? They had a written language. Yet that did not stop the Spanish from taking over. So I suppose, by your standards, this makes the USA better than Mexico, right?
I think you are inferring too much into it. Back down.

Besides, written language shows the ability to think and describe in shorter and simplified forms for the culture, rather than copying the looks of everything. Since written language are usually constructed for readability (written line by line, horizontal or vertical), it shows the lessening of chaos for shared knowledge within the society itself. Constructive ways of showing information shows how the society is getting to be more concise.

Quote:
Things were not rosy and sweet in Europe either. How is this even relevant to the discussion at hand?
Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:00   Link #7515
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Very unlike the Palestinians...
Palestine doesn't have the support of major powers that would allow them to move. The Jews were able to emigrate to Israel because the British let them move there. If the Palestinians wanted to move, there's nowhere they can go. It's not that simple.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:05   Link #7516
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Palestine doesn't have the support of major powers that would allow them to move. The Jews were able to emigrate to Israel because the British let them move there. If the Palestinians wanted to move, there's nowhere they can go. It's not that simple.
Now you make me question something : why the rest of the Mideast won't let them move to their lands?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:10   Link #7517
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Palestine doesn't have the support of major powers that would allow them to move. The Jews were able to emigrate to Israel because the British let them move there. If the Palestinians wanted to move, there's nowhere they can go. It's not that simple.
This may or may not be true. I don't think that it's ever come up before - the Palestinians were always fixated on getting Israel back as their land. If they ever opened up to the international community and said "we'd like to establish our own land elsewhere to put an end to this conflict" I'm not sure what would happen.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:13   Link #7518
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
This may or may not be true. I don't think that it's ever come up before - the Palestinians were always fixated on getting Israel back as their land. If they ever opened up to the international community and said "we'd like to establish our own land elsewhere to put an end to this conflict" I'm not sure what would happen.
I will eat all of the anime figurines Vexx put up for sale if that happens.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:14   Link #7519
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Palestine doesn't have the support of major powers that would allow them to move. The Jews were able to emigrate to Israel because the British let them move there. If the Palestinians wanted to move, there's nowhere they can go. It's not that simple.
By major powers I assume you're talking about Jordan, Egypt etc. Why don't they want to support their brothers?


Imma looking forward to the U.N. response to this epic dual beatdown. Looks like the idiot turks came out losers. Should be comical as always. Jihadis gonna be pissed.

EDIT:
In a predictable turn of events. The dhimmis that make up the UN security council to hold an emergency meeting on this epic confrontation.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news...-95257909.html

Last edited by Hage-bai; 2010-05-31 at 13:44.
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Old 2010-05-31, 13:17   Link #7520
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
This may or may not be true. I don't think that it's ever come up before - the Palestinians were always fixated on getting Israel back as their land. If they ever opened up to the international community and said "we'd like to establish our own land elsewhere to put an end to this conflict" I'm not sure what would happen.
they don't even have to move
move the people out of gaza and concentrate them all in the west bank (an area about 20 times the size of gaza)
have an exchange of territory between them and israel over the amount of land lost from gaza (which would be come part of israel) and unify the west bank into jordan (which is already majority palestinians anyway)

so long as the palestinians remain split between two landmasses with israeli territory cutting them off , its never going to work all that well anyway
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