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Old 2010-05-31, 14:33   Link #7561
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I thought that Hamas didn't really win too much in terms of elections, and then decided to take control by force. That resulted in Gaza being divided roughly into two divisions. Hamas represents extremist desires and views.
They did. They went into houses and talked the people to their side. They had handouts, and acted all nice and helpful to the citizens closer to the buffer zone.

That is how they won the election. Brilliant political maneuvering, but extremist views. Fatah, on the other hand, had alot of corruption and rife within its ranks.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:34   Link #7562
yoropa
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i'm talking about the jews living in the settlements
if the area containing the settlemets becomes part of the new palestinan state, would the people who live there at present be allowed to stay if they so choose ?
i'd warn you that you'll raise hell by claiming that jews have to leave palestine but arabs are allowed to stay in israel
Here's the difference:
The Arabs in Israel have been there since before Israel was formed.
The Jews in the settlements in Palestine are recent and part of a push by the Israeli government to annex more land.
There are some Jews still in Palestine who have not moved to Israel, not as many as the Arabs in Israel. Many of these Jews would be of non-Jewish ethnicity.

So yes, those Jewish settlements into Palestine would have to stop. If there were Arab settlements into Israel, they'd have to stop as well.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:35   Link #7563
Upscaled
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agito Akiyama View Post
(snip)

Even in our previous operation IDF warned everyone and they fought with land troopers inside Gaza, threatening the IDF soldiers lives, just for the safety of the people in Gaza.

NO OTHER ARMY IN THE WORLD WILL DO THAT WHEN FIGHTING TERROR AND THE ENEMY.
Think what UK would do in our situation, think what US would do think what Russia would do, people can always point at us and blame us for something we didn't do or start, but look at your countries.

It's important for me to notice that I'm sorry that I used the world Muslims and Arabs a lot, this has no racist intention, it is just to name a population that their ethnicity is that.

Please understand us.
Re. what the UK would do, I'll quote Andrew Sullivan here:
I'm more mindful of the British example, since I lived during it. For years, IRA terrorists bombed Britain's pubs and shops and eventually nearly killed the entire cabinet in the Brighton hotel bombing. Those terrorists lived among the population in both the republic and Ulster? Did Britain bomb Ireland in response? Were republican areas in the north sealed off and pulverized as happened in Gaza? Were British casualties one hundredth of Irish casualties in response?

None of this happened. Margaret Thatcher no less accepted what became known as an "acceptable level of violence" because the alternative would a) have caused domestic outrage and b) made the situation far, far worse and recruited a new army of terror. Again, one has to ask: why is Israel different?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...gaza.html#more

Now some of you might dismiss this quote out-of-hand because you might think that Andrew Sullivan is now a rabid anti-semite. You would be wrong if you believe that, and you should also be able to take his comparison of the UK response to the IRA and the Israeli response to Gaza rockets on its own terms, regardless of who wrote the piece. No?
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:36   Link #7564
Agito Akiyama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoropa View Post
Here's the difference:
The Arabs in Israel have been there since before Israel was formed.
The Jews in the settlements in Palestine are recent and part of a push by the Israeli government to annex more land.
There are some Jews still in Palestine who have not moved to Israel, not as many as the Arabs in Israel. Many of these Jews would be of non-Jewish ethnicity.

So yes, those Jewish settlements into Palestine would have to stop. If there were Arab settlements into Israel, they'd have to stop as well.
You still didn't read what I wrote did you?
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:40   Link #7565
Hage-bai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upscaled View Post
I'll quote Andrew Sullivan here:
I'm more mindful of the British example, since I lived during it. For years, IRA terrorists bombed Britain's pubs and shops and eventually nearly killed the entire cabinet in the Brighton hotel bombing. Those terrorists lived among the population in both the republic and Ulster? Did Britain bomb Ireland in response? Were republican areas in the north sealed off and pulverized as happened in Gaza? Were British casualties one hundredth of Irish casualties in response?

None of this happened. Margaret Thatcher no less accepted what became known as an "acceptable level of violence" because the alternative would a) have caused domestic outrage and b) made the situation far, far worse and recruited a new army of terror. Again, one has to ask: why is Israel different?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...gaza.html#more

Now some of you might dismiss this quote out-of-hand because you might think that Andrew Sullivan is now a rabid anti-semite. You would be wrong if you believe that, and you should also be able to take his comparison of the UK response to the IRA and the Israeli response to Gaza rockets on its own terms, regardless of who wrote the piece. No?
This is because the British have become nothing more than welfare state pussies. Andrew Sullivan is a POS. Glad i left that everlasting hole doomed to mediocrity.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:41   Link #7566
Agito Akiyama
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Originally Posted by MihawkXGP View Post
Yes. I think that is pretty much a well established fact by now. Nothing has yet been done over the Goldstone report, i can bet nothing will be done here. This clearly sends a message to Israel, that they can behave however the fuck they want, and get away with it. If you can get away with war crimes and crimes against humanity, then we might as well just give up hope, that any justice will be done for these 19 martyrs of human rights.
You seriously know nothing, live in Sderot between the years 2000-2008 under bombardment, I would like to see what your country will do in this case.
Talking shit about others is easy, place yourself instead of them.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:42   Link #7567
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoropa View Post
Here's the difference:
The Arabs in Israel have been there since before Israel was formed.
The Jews in the settlements in Palestine are recent and part of a push by the Israeli government to annex more land.
There are some Jews still in Palestine who have not moved to Israel, not as many as the Arabs in Israel. Many of these Jews would be of non-Jewish ethnicity.

So yes, those Jewish settlements into Palestine would have to stop. If there were Arab settlements into Israel, they'd have to stop as well.
some people would argue that there ARE arab settlements in israel, since hundreds of thousends of palestinians moved to israel over the years and became israeli civis (they get citizenship by marrying arab israeli's)
you'll have a hell of a time sorting that one out, but thats not the point
the point is that there needs to be a unified palestinian body to actually MAKE these kind of sorting out along side israel, and now you don't have that (since the palestinians are divided into two factions

P.S
there ARE no jews in the west bank
they all fled or were killed long ago, which just hammers my point home
you can't say jews can't live in palestine without saying arabs can't live in israel
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:42   Link #7568
yoropa
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Originally Posted by Agito Akiyama View Post
You still didn't read what I wrote did you?
I did, and I disagree with what you said. I'm here proposing ways to end the situation, and you're here throwing about anti-Arab words. But I suppose in your eyes I'm nothing more than "a shepherd" or "a monkey."
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:43   Link #7569
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upscaled View Post
Re. what the UK would do, I'll quote Andrew Sullivan here:
I'm more mindful of the British example, since I lived during it. For years, IRA terrorists bombed Britain's pubs and shops and eventually nearly killed the entire cabinet in the Brighton hotel bombing. Those terrorists lived among the population in both the republic and Ulster? Did Britain bomb Ireland in response? Were republican areas in the north sealed off and pulverized as happened in Gaza? Were British casualties one hundredth of Irish casualties in response?

None of this happened. Margaret Thatcher no less accepted what became known as an "acceptable level of violence" because the alternative would a) have caused domestic outrage and b) made the situation far, far worse and recruited a new army of terror. Again, one has to ask: why is Israel different?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...gaza.html#more

Now some of you might dismiss this quote out-of-hand because you might think that Andrew Sullivan is now a rabid anti-semite. You would be wrong if you believe that, and you should also be able to take his comparison of the UK response to the IRA and the Israeli response to Gaza rockets on its own terms, regardless of who wrote the piece. No?
Let me ask you a question. Which is more difficult to collect? Domestic intelligence, or foreign intelligence?

Although I must admit that Mossad methods are rather violent, they can't take the risk of letting terrorist leaders slip away. Their "kill them when there is a chance" pretty shows how much the Muslim pressure had driven them to desperation or even paranoia.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:45   Link #7570
yoropa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
there ARE no jews in the west bank
they all fled or were killed long ago
There are Jews living all over Arabia, everywhere. Not ethnic Jews, but rather Arab Jews. They aren't public about it. Hell, I know Iraqi Jews.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:48   Link #7571
Upscaled
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Palestine wants to take back the entire of Israel, true to the fact of that, but they can still live on the Gaza and call it their own land of Palestine. It is a matter of choice.

Cmon, my country is a whole lot smaller than that place and had 3 times the population of 1.5 million. It is just that these people have sucky leaders and bad influence.
I'm assuming that you're comparing Singapore with the Gaza Strip. Here are the facts according to Wikipedia:

Singapore:
Area: 710.2 km2
Population: 4,987,600
Population density: 7,022/km2

Gaza Strip:
Area: 360 km2
Population: 1,500,202
Population density: 4,118/km2

So Singapore is actually not a whole lot smaller than the Gaza strip, but nearly double the size. Furthermore, Singapore has abundant rainfall while the Gaza Strip is prone to drought. Finally Singapore practices extensive trade with the rest of the world, while the Gaza Strip is subject to an Israeli blockade. Seriously, you are not being fair.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:49   Link #7572
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoropa View Post
There are Jews living all over Arabia, everywhere. Not ethnic Jews, but rather Arab Jews. They aren't public about it. Hell, I know Iraqi Jews.
not in the palestinian territories
and people don't much talk about that now, but there used to be a lot MORE jews in arab countries
over 800,000 more to be accurate
guess what happened to them


Quote:
Originally Posted by Upscaled View Post
So Singapore is actually not a whole lot smaller than the Gaza strip, but nearly double the size. Furthermore, Singapore has abundant rainfall while the Gaza Strip is prone to drought. Finally Singapore practices extensive trade with the rest of the world, while the Gaza Strip is subject to an Israeli blockade. Seriously, you are not being fair.
didn't used to be the case
under the palestinian authority, there was more or less free trade from Gaza
under hamas its under blockade
guess its better to be under the PA then the Hamas, or at least thats the overall message
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:51   Link #7573
yoropa
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
not in the palestinian territories
and people don't much talk about that now, but there used to be a lot MORE jews in arab countries
over 800,000 more to be accurate
guess what happened to them
Yes, in the Palestinian territories. Even today. They exist. Just like Christians.
A lot of them converted to Islam during the Golden Age.
Nowadays, most of them remaining moved to Israel.

That's not a guess, that's a fact.
But this is off topic.
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:53   Link #7574
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by yoropa View Post
Yes, in the Palestinian territories. Even today. They exist. Just like Christians.
A lot of them converted to Islam during the Golden Age.
Nowadays, most of them remaining moved to Israel.

That's not a guess, that's a fact.
But this is off topic.
you had 800,000 jews who were kicked out of arab countries after 1948
thats also a fact
and like you said, those who stayed converted to islam
jews, AS JEWS, have no place in the arab world
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:53   Link #7575
Upscaled
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Let me ask you a question. Which is more difficult to collect? Domestic intelligence, or foreign intelligence?

Although I must admit that Mossad methods are rather violent, they can't take the risk of letting terrorist leaders slip away. Their "kill them when there is a chance" pretty shows how much the Muslim pressure had driven them to desperation or even paranoia.
The answer is obvious. Foreign intelligence is more difficult to collect. Here's what is not obvious. How does that justify the Israeli blockade and bombardment of the Gaza Strip?
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Old 2010-05-31, 14:55   Link #7576
yoropa
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you had 800,000 jews who were kicked out of arab countries after 1948
You also had a large number of Arabs kicked out of Israel at that same time, some of which had been living there for thousands of years.

You have to accept sad shit happened to everybody, and it did. Then, you can try to resolve the current issue, and make peace.
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Old 2010-05-31, 15:01   Link #7577
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Upscaled View Post
The answer is obvious. Foreign intelligence is more difficult to collect. Here's what is not obvious. How does that justify the Israeli blockade and bombardment of the Gaza Strip?
the blockade is in place to make it impossible for the Gaza Strip to become a functioning city state under Hamas
when it was under the control of the palestinian authority it was thriving (its got sky scrapers for fucks sake)
under Hamas, its a shit hole, and ENTIRELY dependent on humanitarian aid
thats a good thing
you don't WANT Gaza to thrive while Hamas is in control
you WANT them to be entirely dependent on the UN
you WANT them to fail completely to develop Gaza as anything other then a dead end

why ?
because you don't WANT Hamas to BE in control of the Gaza Strip
by making it so that any contact Gaza has with the outside world unless it goes through israel or egypt (Hamas's enemies), you turn them into a joke, living on borrowed time.
when the time comes, it would either fade away (because it completely lose support of the people) or it would be forced to hand power over to the PA again
but that takes time
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Old 2010-05-31, 15:05   Link #7578
xris
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I suggest that everyone cool down as the discussion in this thread is getting too heated.

Thread will be closed for a while. Please do not create new threads to continue this discussion (and please do not continue the debate in other threads for that matter).

From the forum rules.

2.8 Avoid flammable and cyclic topics
Please be aware that political and religious discussions often cause very heated debates with little give or take on either side. They normally start out interesting and sensible but degrade rapidly. This produces the same arguments repeatedly for pages and induces many members to start "flaming" each other. Such topics will most likely be closed unless care is taken to keep the thread both interesting and polite.
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Old 2010-06-01, 13:46   Link #7579
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Thread now reopened. Again, please remember that while you may discuss the various new stories, please do not let any of the debates get out of hand.
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Old 2010-06-01, 13:52   Link #7580
SaintessHeart
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BP lays out new, riskier move to cut oil flow

Quote:
(Reuters) - After abandoning its latest bid to plug its blown-out well in the Gulf of Mexico, BP Plc on will start a new and risky attempt on Tuesday to place a cap over the leak to funnel oil to the surface.

BP abandoned its "top kill" attempt to plug the well on Saturday after several attempts to pump thousands of barrels of mud down the well failed to stop the flow of oil, which U.S. scientists peg at up to 19,000 barrels per day.

The top kill strategy was BP's best short-term shot at plugging the seabed well. BP's remaining short-term options offer untried ways to contain the spewing oil but few ways to stop it completely.

On Tuesday, undersea robots will use a diamond-coated saw to cut through the riser pipe atop a giant stack of pipes called the lower marine riser package, or LMRP. Workers will lower a containment dome and place it atop the LMRP to funnel oil to a tanker on the surface.

The move could temporarily increase the amount of oil gushing into the sea by about 20 percent, U.S. officials said.

"Later on this morning we should see ... robots putting giant shears and cutting parts of that pipe about 35 feet away from the wellhead followed by a robot making a clean diamond saw cut across the top of it," BP managing director Bob Dudley said on CBS's Early Edition show. "That will allow us to put this dome down."

"I think you will see that these containment domes will work," he said. The cap is expected to be deployed later this week, BP said.

White House advisor Carol Browner said the possibility that the flow will temporarily increase is "deeply, deeply troubling."

UNTESTED STRATEGY

Analysts are skeptical that BP's new plan will succeed.

"Given the fact that the previous plans (which had higher chances of success) have failed, this new prospect does not give us any real confidence that it will succeed," analysts from U.K firm Arbuthnot Research said in a note to clients.

"Systems such as the LMRP containment cap have never before been deployed at these depths and conditions and their efficiency and ability to contain the oil and gas cannot be assured," BP said in a news statement on Tuesday.

U.S. government scientists estimated that cutting the riser pipe coming out of the blowout preventer to prepare for the next containment option could result in a temporary oil flow increase of up to 20 percent.

Dudley acknowledged more oil will be released. "There will be a little bit more oil, somewhere between 0 and 20 percent more," he told CBS.

The company is also drilling two relief wells that are expected to ultimately plug the ruptured well but will not be completed until August.

The first relief well, which began on May 2, has reached a depth of 12,090 feet. The second well, started on May, 16 has reached a depth of 8,576 before drilling was halted. Operations on that well resumed May 30, BP said.
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