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Old 2010-07-15, 04:15   Link #8201
Nosauz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and yet, this is the case to day
how many protests have you seen lately demanding a boycott of Saudi Arabia for its mistreatment of women ?
how many people even know about the conflict in northen yemen thats killed over 8000 people this past year alone ?
theres been a war in the congo this past decade thats killed over 5 MILLION people, and i bet you that 4 out of 5 westerners wouldnt be able to tell where congo is if you give them a map without names.

the general way of the world IS to apply different standards of morality to one's own group and a different, LOWER, standards to others.
westerners who behave in such a manner wouldn't get off so easily would they
which IS racist



in the american south, not all that long ago, you had lynchings
which is basiclly half the population of a town showing up at the two center to see some young man or woman brutally murdered for being the wrong color

question
would you have any problem declaring that those people were barbarians ?
They were yet a large group of Americans in this country yearn for those days, that's why I have no qualms calling racists what they are. See Blade the reason why you are just so unbelievable is your one of those people who defended collateral damage in our two wars abroad, you don't believe in the sanctity of life, but you do believe in your right to hate.

Again this notion that all Muslims are for shariah and ultra conservative is again asnine your appealing to peoples fear of anything different, when it's far from the case.

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?ex...%26sec%3Dfocus

this article is proof that all Muslims are not the way you paint them, but all people who show up to lynching are absolutely racists, theres no doubt because they are reveling in the murder of innocents for the sake of feeling superior and not white trash.
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Old 2010-07-15, 07:28   Link #8202
JMvS
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Let's just get this straight right now... The Moors are probably the one group that has ruled Spain in a somewhat sensible manner, unlike the Christians, the Fascists, the Moors were probably the most tolerant group within Spain. Whereas you have Queen Isabella who started the inquisition. Could it possibly be a message that all religions like those that lived in the trading city Cordoba can live together, even though there were non muslims, like jews and christians they all managed to live in some semblance of harmony.

Wow guess what with my limited knowledge of Spanish History I inferred their mission statement... who context is key and to not realize that the Moors as rulers were rulers that were tolerant of other religions is just the lack of understanding typical reactionaries have. As long as people like you exist and they do this world will never see any semblance of peace, and the perpetual wars will continue, if not the Islamists, then Chinese, if not the Chinese then it will be the Africans, and if all else fails we can always hate on the Russians because that's just easy.
Sigh...

I am getting extremely tired of this recurring, oversimplified comparison, which seems to permeates most debates over the "Clash of Civilization".

That a Golden Age Al-Andalus was ruined by a barbarious Inquisition Spain.

First of all, equating the Dhimmi status with religious tolerance is a bit more than a stretch. And even if it saw some lenient application, it also saw it's harshest degeneration precisely in Maghreb and Al-Andalus.

Next, tarring the Catholics Kings with "inventing the Inquisition" is a simple proof of ignorance of both it origin and function (owing to a lot of historic disinformation from the following centuries, and little propagation of more modern research).
The first Inquisition was created in the aftermath of the Cathar War in Southern France (another Golden Legend, which is heavily cashed on for tourism, as in Spain).
The latter Spanish Inquisition had to deal with an entirely different matter than those re-converted heretics: conversos, meaning Jews (and to a lesser extent Muslims) converted to Catholicism (while Jews and Muslims communities had a somehow similar status to Dhimmi: they had their own regulations and leaders, in exchange for special taxes); the problem being the accusations of fašade conversions which stirred popular unrest.
Not condoning lynching, the Kings responded to the pleas of sincere conversos, and obtained from the Pope the institution of an Inquisition which would clear the names of the innocents and reprimand those guilty, protecting both from popular vindication.
Their latter decision to ban religions other than Catholicism in order to put an end to social unrest is a questionable decision, as it lead to numerous Jews and Muslims fleeing rather than converting. But notice that during WW2, it was the "fascist" Franco that retroactively granted Spanish citizenship to Sephardic Jews fleeing Nazism, after... 500 years.

And anyway, putting the racism argument into all that is near asinine: as both religions applied the core value of the unicity of Mankind, with conversion being a primary goal on both side.


Back on the main issue, I hardly see any problem in their wish to build an architecturally well integrated community center next to (and not on) the WTC site.
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Old 2010-07-15, 08:55   Link #8203
TooPurePureBoy
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Why is BladeofDarkness so out of line for suggesting that they build a mosque somewhere other than the place that islamic radicals bombed? I don't think it's that out of line to say "hey guys no offense but lets not start up a shitstorm when there are lots of other places".

I have no problem with mosques, they are some of my favorite architecture, but I mean just for the sake of "letting sleeping dogs lie" why not find a less controversial sight?

Why is that so racist? Also Nosauz c'mon man you don't know BladeofDarkness well enough to make some of the claims against his character you have. At least look a person in the eye before you assume so much I say.
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Old 2010-07-15, 11:33   Link #8204
Lord of Fire
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I didn't know Muslim was a race now. When did that happen?

Anyway, Muslims want to build a mosque on Ground Zero and now people are surprised or even offended that there are people who find this a seriously inconsiderate move towards those who died there?

Yeah, not all Muslims are radical (under normal conditions), but anyone who doesn't understand that people have a problem with this fails to see what caused this site to become the way it is now.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:18   Link #8205
synaesthetic
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The very idea of putting a mosque anywhere near Ground Zero is so astonishingly retarded I can't even

*facepalm*

Wow. Seriously, wow.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:31   Link #8206
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
Why is BladeofDarkness so out of line for suggesting that they build a mosque somewhere other than the place that islamic radicals bombed? I don't think it's that out of line to say "hey guys no offense but lets not start up a shitstorm when there are lots of other places".

I have no problem with mosques, they are some of my favorite architecture, but I mean just for the sake of "letting sleeping dogs lie" why not find a less controversial sight?

Why is that so racist? Also Nosauz c'mon man you don't know BladeofDarkness well enough to make some of the claims against his character you have. At least look a person in the eye before you assume so much I say.
1) People of many faiths were killed in the WTC attack... including many of the Islamic faith. Are you going to tell Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses the same thing? The Mormons massacred relatives of my ancestors in the Meadow Mountain Massacre. Should I hate all Mormons? The terrorists are simply using their religion to rationalize their destructive behavior. They want to exercise power and rule over their part of the schoolyard. US, Israeli, and even other versions of Islamic faith are in their way.

2) Being against a faith or intolerant of it isn't "racist" to be pedantic, its a dispute of world views. But many intolerant people confuse the two (if intolerance were an aspect of having a clue, they'd do their research of that which they hate but hey....). Its the "hate of difference" either way.

Indigenous religions are easier to tie to a specific culture, nationality, or people -- but the J-C-I religions are aggressive and conversion-bent so asserting some connection to race fails.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:43   Link #8207
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It's not racist or anti-religion. It's pointless. It'd be like America blowing up Mecca and then erecting a statue of Sarah Palin among the ruins.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:49   Link #8208
JMvS
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Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
Anyway, Muslims want to build a mosque on Ground Zero and now people are surprised or even offended that there are people who find this a seriously inconsiderate move towards those who died there
Lots of people are seemingly mistaken on that, but if you read trough the more serious press releases and browse trough the association's website, you'll find that their project is two blocks North of the WTC site, and not on it.

Anyway, even a Swiss minaret denier like myself has nothing to criticize about it, as it will be built accordingly to neighboring buildings, and not like the Mecca Tower.

For all I can judge, American Muslims seems more sensible than their European counterparts in their architectural ambitions.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:50   Link #8209
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's not racist or anti-religion. It's pointless. It'd be like America blowing up Mecca and then erecting a statue of Sarah Palin among the ruins.
Why erect a statue of that woman? Heck she'd make a horrible politician!
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:53   Link #8210
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
Why is BladeofDarkness so out of line for suggesting that they build a mosque somewhere other than the place that islamic radicals bombed? I don't think it's that out of line to say "hey guys no offense but lets not start up a shitstorm when there are lots of other places".

I have no problem with mosques, they are some of my favorite architecture, but I mean just for the sake of "letting sleeping dogs lie" why not find a less controversial sight?

Why is that so racist? Also Nosauz c'mon man you don't know BladeofDarkness well enough to make some of the claims against his character you have. At least look a person in the eye before you assume so much I say.
Lol, all I'm doing is using the information in front of me, and they happen to lead me to the conclusion that bladeofdarkness is a racist because this isn't about extremism or dislike for terrorists but a vendetta against those that believe in Islam. I mean as an American you have the right to be offended, but that's as far as your rights go because building a Mosque does in no way infringe or impune another's rights. I'm not a muslim, I'm not a religious at all, but the special treatment we give to Christianity is so far fetched. Why are churches allowed to be built in Boston? The epicenter of child molester Priest scandal. Why are churches allowed to constructed anywhere in the middle east after the crusades?

Would Americans agree that every single French, English, American, Dutch, German government building constructed in Beijing and Shanghai be kicked out especially after the destruction and abject poverty they subjucated the chinese to after the Opium Wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's not racist or anti-religion. It's pointless. It'd be like America blowing up Mecca and then erecting a statue of Sarah Palin among the ruins.
No that would be like the Oathkeeper's blowing up Mecca, and Christians in the wake of the terrorist attack have formed a community deciding to build a church two blocks away from Mecca. Seriously your scenario is epitome of the idiocy our nation faced during the 2008 Presidential elections.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:53   Link #8211
Reckoner
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Vexx, if human beings in general were able to look at these sorts of things from a logical point of view as you just did, we would have a lot less problems in the first place in our everyday lives.

I'm sure someone as cynical as you can understand that this serves little more than to stir up emotions and controversy.

Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong, but we all know that this is not going to be OK with the general population in the long run. People are really just that stupid.
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Old 2010-07-15, 12:58   Link #8212
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's not racist or anti-religion. It's pointless. It'd be like America blowing up Mecca and then erecting a statue of Sarah Palin among the ruins.
I think Bush is more recognizable then palin in ME. Now erecting a statue Palin in Berkeley would be something else
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Old 2010-07-15, 13:03   Link #8213
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I think Bush is more recognizable then palin in ME. Now erecting a statue Palin in Berkeley would be something else
Stop giving her analogy credence by quoting it. A mosque =/= ugly statue of an American bimbo that only knows how to spit vile and hate. If you where going to make an apt comparison a mosque is similar to a church, it's a place of worship. A statue of Sarah Palin would be like a statue of Ahmadenajad.

I actually understand the Minaret argument and to me it makes sense. From the minarets they blast their prayers and unless the city's majority is muslim I don't see the reason to put everybody else through the discomfort of daily prayer announcements. I know it's islamic tradition to pray five times a day, but to say people deserve special treatment is just rationally unsettling especially when the people are not the majority.
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Old 2010-07-15, 13:04   Link #8214
JMvS
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I think Bush is more recognizable then palin in ME. Now erecting a statue Palin in Berkeley would be something else
What about a big fat $ symbol statue?
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Old 2010-07-15, 13:06   Link #8215
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
What about a big fat $ symbol statue?
Nonono, it should be a giant credit card.
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Old 2010-07-15, 14:03   Link #8216
Vexx
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Nonono, it should be a giant credit card.
Yeah, one that is completely over-the-limit and in arrears on payment.
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Old 2010-07-15, 14:04   Link #8217
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Facing a bruising midterm election in less than four months, President Barack Obama's aides are putting together an aggressive schedule to deploy former President Bill Clinton at campaign and fundraising events in key states around the country, according to Democratic officials familiar with the plans.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/07/...ton/index.html
when the going gets tough, the Democrates get Clinton. I wonder how many of those endorse Obama over Hillary during the 08 election.

so id Bill laying the ground for a Hillary 2016 run or a possible future run by Chelsea.
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Old 2010-07-15, 14:50   Link #8218
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Stop giving her analogy credence by quoting it. A mosque =/= ugly statue of an American bimbo that only knows how to spit vile and hate. If you where going to make an apt comparison a mosque is similar to a church, it's a place of worship. A statue of Sarah Palin would be like a statue of Ahmadenajad.

I actually understand the Minaret argument and to me it makes sense. From the minarets they blast their prayers and unless the city's majority is muslim I don't see the reason to put everybody else through the discomfort of daily prayer announcements. I know it's islamic tradition to pray five times a day, but to say people deserve special treatment is just rationally unsettling especially when the people are not the majority.
My analogy has credence and you're proving it now. It's an utterly pointless act and you are properly baffled by it. Would you have been happier if I used the analogy, "like giving a fish a bicycle?"

There is absolutely no reason a mosque should be constructed on Ground Zero. It will not make America look more progressive or diverse. The entire suggestion is just vaporware--it'll never happen in a million years--another episode of the left intentionally trying to antagonize the right.

I swear, politics in this country is worse than high school.
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Old 2010-07-15, 15:04   Link #8219
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
My analogy has credence and you're proving it now. It's an utterly pointless act and you are properly baffled by it. Would you have been happier if I used the analogy, "like giving a fish a bicycle?"

There is absolutely no reason a mosque should be constructed on Ground Zero. It will not make America look more progressive or diverse. The entire suggestion is just vaporware--it'll never happen in a million years--another episode of the left intentionally trying to antagonize the right.

I swear, politics in this country is worse than high school.
Sigh... how is America, a sovereign nation, destroying mecca anything similar to 9/11. Please PLEASE PLEASE explain how those two are analogous in any fashion. Oh right their not. It's not about America looking more progressive or diverse, it's about upholding what this nation was built upon, not the phony coopted Glenn Beckian founders that the right purports.

Last edited by Nosauz; 2010-07-15 at 15:17.
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Old 2010-07-15, 15:20   Link #8220
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Sigh... how is America, a sovereign nation, destroying mecca anything similar to 9/11. Please PLEASE PLEASE explain how those two are analogous in any fashion. Oh right their not. It's not about America looking more progressive or diverse, it's about upholding what this nation was built upon, not the phony coopted Glenn Beckian founders that the right purports.
legal wise, the mosque should be allow to be built. but PR wise it is a dumb idea.
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