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Old 2010-07-15, 15:21   Link #8221
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
1) People of many faiths were killed in the WTC attack... including many of the Islamic faith. Are you going to tell Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses the same thing? The Mormons massacred relatives of my ancestors in the Meadow Mountain Massacre. Should I hate all Mormons? The terrorists are simply using their religion to rationalize their destructive behavior. They want to exercise power and rule over their part of the schoolyard. US, Israeli, and even other versions of Islamic faith are in their way.

2) Being against a faith or intolerant of it isn't "racist" to be pedantic, its a dispute of world views. But many intolerant people confuse the two (if intolerance were an aspect of having a clue, they'd do their research of that which they hate but hey....). Its the "hate of difference" either way.

Indigenous religions are easier to tie to a specific culture, nationality, or people -- but the J-C-I religions are aggressive and conversion-bent so asserting some connection to race fails.
Generally speaking, if idiots want to do something stupid but legal, I'm all for letting them do it. But I can't help but think there's some merit. Even taking the view the Mosque's intended as nothing more than some kind of peaceful statement, is it really a good idea to shove those feelings down the throat of people who are still grieving and angry? How much time must pass before you can say "get over it"? Is ten years long enough? (On a related note, how long till we can say that to Israelis trying to use the holocaust to justify stuff?)


On the other hand... two blocks away. While I'm hesitant to tell people to get over the death of a loved one, I'm much less so about telling them to make a detour if it bothers them so.
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Old 2010-07-15, 15:28   Link #8222
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Generally speaking, if idiots want to do something stupid but legal, I'm all for letting them do it. But I can't help but think there's some merit. Even taking the view the Mosque's intended as nothing more than some kind of peaceful statement, is it really a good idea to shove those feelings down the throat of people who are still grieving and angry? How much time must pass before you can say "get over it"? Is ten years long enough? (On a related note, how long till we can say that to Israelis trying to use the holocaust to justify stuff?)


On the other hand... two blocks away. While I'm hesitant to tell people to get over the death of a loved one, I'm much less so about telling them to make a detour if it bothers them so.
So your telling me that a Mosque is worse than say Bill O'Reily verbally assaulting a grieving son that lost his father during 9/11 less horrendous, or Glen Beck calling all 9/11 survivors and loved ones prima donas more acceptable than just a mosque. I really don't understand this sentiment at all. As long as the message being said matches yours your fine with the injustices that are doled out with that message is basically what your saying which way more shocking than any mosque could ever be.
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Old 2010-07-15, 15:34   Link #8223
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
So your telling me that a Mosque is worse than say Bill O'Reily verbally assaulting a grieving son that lost his father during 9/11 less horrendous, or Glen Beck calling all 9/11 survivors and loved ones prima donas more acceptable than just a mosque. I really don't understand this sentiment at all. As long as the message being said matches yours your fine with the injustices that are doled out with that message is basically what your saying which way more shocking than any mosque could ever be.
Straw man. Exactly when did I ever support O'Reilly or Beck?

And no, what I'm saying is, do the American muslims need the grief this mosque's going to bring? That it's already bringing, for that matter?
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Old 2010-07-15, 15:39   Link #8224
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Straw man. Exactly when did I ever support O'Reilly or Beck?

And no, what I'm saying is, do the American muslims need the grief this mosque's going to bring? That it's already bringing, for that matter?
It absolutely isn't a straw man, your claiming vindication through the "grief" it may cause 9/11 families but the fact is worse has been done to them, and the fact that you paint this mosque as the pinnacle of pain that they will suffer is absurd. Also the grief that muslims will take, is exactly the same type of grief blacks took in diners in Greensboro, NC, should they have just taken it, and not fought for their rights to be treated as equals? This is a question of freedom to do and associate as one pleases, no other peoples rights are being violated.
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:11   Link #8225
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And no, what I'm saying is, do the American muslims need the grief this mosque's going to bring? That it's already bringing, for that matter?
Thing is, I don't think the message behind the project was ever intended as "we're building a mosque at Ground Zero" - it's intended as "we're a muslim organization building community (the proposal has a heavy community services emphasis) right next to where our so-called "brothers" tries to destroy it". And I wouldn't be surprised if they're naive enough to actually think that's the message everyone is going to take from it - they're leftists from New York.

The way the right chose to characterize the issue... pretty much demonstrates everything that's wrong with the American right today.
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:22   Link #8226
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
And I wouldn't be surprised if they're naive enough to actually think that's the message everyone is going to take from it - they're leftists from New York.


So are these Cordoba guys the dumb ones or are the ones screaming hellfire and Jesus the dumb ones...?
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:23   Link #8227
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
It absolutely isn't a straw man, your claiming vindication through the "grief" it may cause 9/11 families but the fact is worse has been done to them, and the fact that you paint this mosque as the pinnacle of pain that they will suffer is absurd.
"Pinnacle"? You're, once again, putting words in my mouth. I can, however, see why they'd see it as a provocation. Yes, it is unfair that a few extremists have... co-opted the symbols of an entire religion for themselves. But they have, and it's something we have to deal with. I'd prefer a soft touch than yelling "racist" whenever someone disagrees.

Quote:
Also the grief that muslims will take, is exactly the same type of grief blacks took in diners in Greensboro, NC, should they have just taken it, and not fought for their rights to be treated as equals? This is a question of freedom to do and associate as one pleases, no other peoples rights are being violated.
A fair point, for once. However, I'd point out:
- Ground Zero is hardly the whole of America, or even the whole of New York. They could have put their mosque a little further. Or waited a bit longer.
- I'm not arguing for any kind of legal action. All I'm saying is, they could have abstained, and maybe they should have.

Black people had to make a stand to get their rights, or nothing would have changed. Muslims already have their rights, and - this is where I must confess my lack of knowledge of the American situation - I think that as long as they live peacefully and don't make waves, they'll only become more integrated.

And if they had to make a stand, maybe this place isn't the right one.

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So are these Cordoba guys the dumb ones or are the ones screaming hellfire and Jesus the dumb ones...?
Do we have to pick one?
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:23   Link #8228
TooPurePureBoy
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So are these Cordoba guys the dumb ones or are the ones screaming hellfire and Jesus the dumb ones...?
Isn't it obvious? Both are stupid.
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:27   Link #8229
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
And if they had to make a stand, maybe this place isn't the right one.
It's rather obvious though that they aren't making a stand so much as they're trying to extend a hand.

Of course it might not be a good idea to extend that hand when you're going to get slapped or even bitten back in return.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Do we have to pick one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy
Isn't it obvious? Both are stupid.
Obviously not. However, it's also important that the two "stupids" aren't the same. I'm really genuinely curious about others opinion -- what kind of stupid is worse to you guys?
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:39   Link #8230
Nosauz
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Muslims like blacks are still to some extent treated as second class citizens, whether it's racial profiling by police or just xenophobic fears perpetuated by the 24 hour news cycle, Muslims and for that matter anyone in this country should not have to worry about living a life within the rules of this established society while watching their backs. I mean should atheists choose to not espouse their views because this nation is viewed as a christian nation by some? I'm for civil liberties over any type of fear mongering or xenophobia or even homophobia. I'll be honest I'm uncomfortable around gay people, but I still believe in their right to live their lives as so they choose and that's why I believe each and every person as long as they follow the rule of law should be entitled to equal opportunity.

Let's not forget that Fox and Friends said that the new space agency that features a comet is a secret islamic symbol that the President is a secret muslim. If you look at the rhetoric of the tea parties, and their claims that this president is not a valid president, you can see a lot of deep seated hatred for those that don't fight the white christian image. I mean just look at the rants about how this president is a communist and how he's a kenyan, which shows you the utter lack of fact based arguments and instead these groups attempt to appeal to the emotional side because their arguments are not based in fact and are in fact irrational vehicles of hate.
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Old 2010-07-15, 16:41   Link #8231
TooPurePureBoy
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Obviously not. However, it's also important that the two "stupids" aren't the same. I'm really genuinely curious about others opinion -- what kind of stupid is worse to you guys?
One is kicking a bees nest the other is a bunch of bees going around looking for things to sting when there are flowers to pollinate. They both seem pretty dumb to me.
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Old 2010-07-15, 17:00   Link #8232
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Muslims like blacks are still to some extent treated as second class citizens, whether it's racial profiling by police or just xenophobic fears perpetuated by the 24 hour news cycle, Muslims and for that matter anyone in this country should not have to worry about living a life within the rules of this established society while watching their backs.
Shouldn't? Ideally, yes. But reality's what we have to deal with. And I'm unconvinced that pushing on that kind of issues is going to help. Well, now, it's probably too late to back down, but I think it should never have come to that. Some fights are better not fought all than won. Things are steadily getting better. Why risk it at this point?

Quote:
I mean should atheists choose to not espouse their views because this nation is viewed as a christian nation by some?
Should they wear signs reading "Believing is dumb" in front of Churches, even though they have a right to?

Quote:
I'm for civil liberties over any type of fear mongering or xenophobia or even homophobia. I'll be honest I'm uncomfortable around gay people, but I still believe in their right to live their lives as so they choose and that's why I believe each and every person as long as they follow the rule of law should be entitled to equal opportunity.
I'm all for people having rights. I'm also for them choosing wisely when to exercise them.

Quote:
Let's not forget that Fox and Friends said that the new space agency that features a comet is a secret islamic symbol that the President is a secret muslim. If you look at the rhetoric of the tea parties, and their claims that this president is not a valid president, you can see a lot of deep seated hatred for those that don't fight the white christian image. I mean just look at the rants about how this president is a communist and how he's a kenyan, which shows you the utter lack of fact based arguments and instead these groups attempt to appeal to the emotional side because their arguments are not based in fact and are in fact irrational vehicles of hate.
I'm kinda far away from that. I'm having trouble taking it seriously.
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Old 2010-07-15, 17:09   Link #8233
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Shouldn't? Ideally, yes. But reality's what we have to deal with. And I'm unconvinced that pushing on that kind of issues is going to help. Well, now, it's probably too late to back down, but I think it should never have come to that. Some fights are better not fought all than won. Things are steadily getting better. Why risk it at this point?


Should they wear signs reading "Believing is dumb" in front of Churches, even though they have a right to?
Oh please. This is the exact same attitude with slavery. Most people claimed that free market forces would lead to desegregation, and separate but equal was a fact of life. This notion that everybody needs to fit in these boxes that are labeled for them is just absolutely far fetched.

Atheists, Christians, homosexuals, transgender, transvestites, and even normal joes should be allowed to wear whatever the hell they want. So what if I wear a shirt that says "there is no god" because only atheists wear shirts that are offensive. Lets not forget that Christians wear crap like, "Gays are sinners" etc. Just because it offends does not make it alright to silence a group. I'm all for PC culture because using derogatory names like nigger, chink, wetback, guido (only non jersey italian americans), and etc are meant to perpetuate this notion that if your not white your not right makes sense but going so far as to say you shouldn't offend somebody just means that we as humans should never reveal our true selves because someone will find something offensive about you no matter what.

Should I not speak my native tongue outloud because this is America and some people find others not speaking english offensive? I mean this argument is trite as best because we as human beings will find things we don't like about other people. Should baldies be forced to wear wigs because I find bald heads offensive and incendiary, because they mock those of us with hair? (I really don't)

I mean to add to the shirt, what if that shirt means more to me than a symbol of atheism but a symbol of a lost friend that once wore that shirt, what if wearing that shirt is to honor the memory of somebody and not the message of the shirt, we humans are tied to sentimentalities that aren't always so cut and dry.
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Old 2010-07-15, 17:32   Link #8234
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Oh please. This is the exact same attitude with slavery. Most people claimed that free market forces would lead to desegregation, and separate but equal was a fact of life. This notion that everybody needs to fit in these boxes that are labeled for them is just absolutely far fetched.

Atheists, Christians, homosexuals, transgender, transvestites, and even normal joes should be allowed to wear whatever the hell they want. So what if I wear a shirt that says "there is no god" because only atheists wear shirts that are offensive. Lets not forget that Christians wear crap like, "Gays are sinners" etc. Just because it offends does not make it alright to silence a group. I'm all for PC culture because using derogatory names like nigger, chink, wetback, guido (only non jersey italian americans), and etc are meant to perpetuate this notion that if your not white your not right makes sense but going so far as to say you shouldn't offend somebody just means that we as humans should never reveal our true selves because someone will find something offensive about you no matter what.

Should I not speak my native tongue outloud because this is America and some people find others not speaking english offensive? I mean this argument is trite as best because we as human beings will find things we don't like about other people. Should baldies be forced to wear wigs because I find bald heads offensive and incendiary, because they mock those of us with hair? (I really don't)

I mean to add to the shirt, what if that shirt means more to me than a symbol of atheism but a symbol of a lost friend that once wore that shirt, what if wearing that shirt is to honor the memory of somebody and not the message of the shirt, we humans are tied to sentimentalities that aren't always so cut and dry.
And, again, you (deliberately?) misinterpret my "should". Which has nothing to do with law, but simple common sense. Also not that not once did I advocate external censorship. Self-censorship, however, is a different issue.

I guess what my POV boils down to is, one should pick his fights carefully. Offending for the sake of giving offense is just as retarded as perpetually living in fear of giving offense.
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Old 2010-07-15, 17:48   Link #8235
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And, again, you (deliberately?) misinterpret my "should". Which has nothing to do with law, but simple common sense. Also not that not once did I advocate external censorship. Self-censorship, however, is a different issue.

I guess what my POV boils down to is, one should pick his fights carefully. Offending for the sake of giving offense is just as retarded as perpetually living in fear of giving offense.
This mosque isn't though, there is a legitimate claim that many Muslims in New York would like to have a mosque close to the working center of the city so that they may go pray in the time they have off from work. How is that a fight for something that is based on being offensive.
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Old 2010-07-15, 17:51   Link #8236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Offending for the sake of giving offense is just as retarded as perpetually living in fear of giving offense.
quoted for truth.

Edit: it's not the mosque that's offensive, it's how the left-leaning politicians have latched onto it as a way to show "tolerance and understanding" only really all they're trying to do is say a big "fuck you" to Republicans/Tea Party/etc.

I'm all for tolerance and understanding and I'm all for religions having places of worship but I am totally against using religion to further political agendas. Separation of church and state and all that.
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Old 2010-07-15, 17:53   Link #8237
Theowne
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I'm not sure where this characterization of "offending for the sake of giving offense" came from or why anyone would think that was the intent of the people behind the proposal. Seems to me like it would be better to listen to what the originating voices have to say, rather than the distorted backlash against it. And that seems far more benign.

edit: (written before the edit above)
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Old 2010-07-15, 17:55   Link #8238
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
quoted for truth.

Edit: it's not the mosque that's offensive, it's how the left-leaning politicians have latched onto it as a way to show "tolerance and understanding" only really all they're trying to do is say a big "fuck you" to Republicans/Tea Party/etc.

I'm all for tolerance and understanding and I'm all for religions having places of worship but I am totally against using religion to further political agendas. Separation of church and state and all that.
Bloomberg.... Left leaning.... HEAD EXPLODES!!!!! Next your going to tell me Cheney is a secret Liberal, and Obama is the reincarnate of FDR.

I really don't think you are, there is a separation of church and state, the fact that the mosque is being built with private money shows that, under your idea of separation of church and state no house of worship should be allowed period. What political message is being sent here? I swear you are an enigma of hypocrisies and contradictions that just don't make any sense at all.

The Catholic Church keeps sticking it's foot in it's mouth, first protecting child molesting priests, now condemning women priests what next? The holocaust was needed? The earth is 6,000 years old?

Last edited by Nosauz; 2010-07-15 at 18:17.
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Old 2010-07-15, 22:03   Link #8239
FateAnomaly
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Irregardless of whether it gets built or not, the terrorist can claim victory in some way or another. Which will in turn encourage further attacks. So good luck.
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Old 2010-07-15, 22:24   Link #8240
ganbaru
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Would it be a good idea to continue this discution on a new thread ?
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