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Old 2010-08-24, 05:36   Link #8741
raile
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I feel sorry for the OFWs (Overseas Filipino Workers) in HK and/or China, they're gonna get a lot of ire and racial slurs from this event (as with the rest of the country).
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Old 2010-08-24, 06:50   Link #8742
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
The death toll for the Manila tragedy is confirmed at eight, not nine.

Rationalisations and justifications aside, my personal opinion is that of disbelief over the sheer incompetence of the would-be rescuers. That said, I don't suspect foul play. In general, most governments rule out negotiation with hostage takers; doing so would encourage others to use the same means to force a response. Negotiations, when they happen at all, are meant to be no more than a stalling tactic for rescuers to plan the operation.
That isn't really true. They won't give the hostage taker what they want, apart for minor things, usually in exchange for the release of a hostage or two each time, but the point of negotiations is to get the hostages out without having to go in. Doing so puts the hostages at extreme risk. If they can end a stand off peacefully they usually try to. It's not only about stalling for time to plan the operation.

Also the police had to screw this up and make me a liar about this being a by the book operation.
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Old 2010-08-24, 08:31   Link #8743
TinyRedLeaf
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Trapped Chilean miners survive 18 days on tuna and milk
Quote:
San Jose, Chile (Aug 24, Tue): Thirty-three miners trapped more than 700m (2,300ft) underground in Chile for the past 18 days have survived on two mouthfuls of tuna and half a glass of milk every 48 hours.

The men, caught in a 45 sq m (500 sq ft) passage by a rock collapse in a San Jose gold and copper mine, remain in good spirits after alerting the world to their survival last weekend by passing a note through a shaft.

Amid the celebrations that have gripped Chile, experts warned that the real challenge would be for the trapped men to maintain sanity during the four months it could take to build an underground escape tunnel.

THE TELEGRAPH
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Old 2010-08-24, 08:36   Link #8744
MeoTwister5
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I heard it might take at least 3 months for them to drill a tunnel big enough to pull them out. The good thing is that there's a tube they can use to send in everything they need to survive as the drilling continues.

Godspeed to these men.
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Old 2010-08-24, 10:06   Link #8745
AnimeTheme
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This is the REAL SWAT. Shame on you, PNP.
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Last edited by AnimeTheme; 2010-08-24 at 10:45.
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Old 2010-08-24, 11:05   Link #8746
MrTerrorist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I heard it might take at least 3 months for them to drill a tunnel big enough to pull them out. The good thing is that there's a tube they can use to send in everything they need to survive as the drilling continues.

Godspeed to these men.
Well that's good know. What about...... their personal hygiene?
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Old 2010-08-24, 12:07   Link #8747
Vexx
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Its going to get pretty stinky down there even if the safe bunker they're in has equipment....

Its nice to see a mining situation where:
1) they had safety equipment
2) they HAVE a protocol for what to do
3) they FOLLOWED the protocol for what to do

A certain number of Chinese and American mine operations should be ashamed of themselves.... but we know they're not.
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Old 2010-08-24, 12:29   Link #8748
Xion Valkyrie
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Dude, if they can get food in there, all they have to do is lower an extension cord + ethernet cord, and drop some laptops down there installed with WoW. They'll be fine.
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Old 2010-08-24, 13:41   Link #8749
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its going to get pretty stinky down there even if the safe bunker they're in has equipment....

Its nice to see a mining situation where:
1) they had safety equipment
2) they HAVE a protocol for what to do
3) they FOLLOWED the protocol for what to do

A certain number of Chinese and American mine operations should be ashamed of themselves.... but we know they're not.
I thought the DARPA was using trapped American miners to experiment for nuclear fallout shelters, thus they blasted away safety protocols.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Dude, if they can get food in there, all they have to do is lower an extension cord + ethernet cord, and drop some laptops down there installed with WoW. They'll be fine.
The supply tube is only large enough to fit in high-energy glucose gel for consumption, which means they have to live through packaged rations.

There are two main problems : one is a cave in which will make the miners similar to the gel they consume, another is fire damp which will turn their air and food holes into miniature volcanoes. Hopefully the rescue team are willing to work 24/7 to save them.
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Old 2010-08-24, 13:53   Link #8750
MrTerrorist
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Ten things the Philippines bus siege police got wrong
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Old 2010-08-24, 14:27   Link #8751
TCman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post

That pretty sums up what went wrong with the siege in Manilla. Although I would put nr. 8 (Safeguarding the public) somewhat higher; I thought I saw one picture with a civilian cycling near that bus which is really ridiculous. And a more ridiculous and tasteless picture is that several mid/highschoolers taking pictures in front of that bus as if they are taking some holiday photos.

As for number 10 about training, if there are other special units that are specialized in these kind of cases, then why aren't they used? In the Philipinnes as the articles said it's common that such hostage takings happen so there are special forces/units for these kind of situations.

And one more thing, isn't arresting the hostage taker's brother on television such a provoking act that eventually push the hostage taker to went mad and killed the hostages. Also the hostage taker was an ex-police officer, so he know the internal workings of the police. So when he saw the socalled SWAT were surrounding him, he's mostly certain that he's gonna die, so he took several hostages with him before he died?

Anyway, condoleance to all the victims and family of this horrible tragedy.
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Old 2010-08-24, 14:30   Link #8752
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
After watching YouTube about the hostage situation, I must say we should consider the turnout of the event as lucky. When the police start hitting the window with the hammer, the gunman knew he is toast. I am surprised there are survivors at all. With all the time lapse between the window hit and the entrance, the gunman can go around shooting hostages execution style and then kill himself.

And some people mention fear, of the police? You got to be kidding me, right? The police/ firefighter/ security guard/ armies are trained for this kind of situation. If you cannot cope for fear then you should quit the job. Remember there are hundreds of firefighters die during 9/11 attack when they try to rescue the survivors? They could totally sit back and chill and wait until everything die down before they go in and dig up the corpse, but they didn't.
Not to deny the firefighters' obvious courage, or that the hostage rescue was a screw-up, but I don't think those situations are comparable. In the 9/11 case, the danger was a building that was maybe going to go down sometime within the next few hours. In the assault, well, the guys backed off when they were being shot at right at that instant, and they were trapped in a confined place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Quote:
5. Satisfying the gunman's demands
"I wondered why the authorities just didn't give in to all of his demands," says Charles Shoebridge. "A promise extracted under force is not a promise that you are required to honour. Nobody wants to give in to the demands of terrorists, but in a situation like this, which did not involve a terrorist group, or release of prisoners, they could have just accepted his demands. He could be reinstated in the police - and then be immediately put in prison for life for hostage taking." The Philippines authorities did in fact give in to the gunman's demands, but too little, too late. One message promised to review his case, while he wanted it formally dismissed. A second message reinstating him as a police offer only arrived after the shooting had started.
Eh. You know, funnily enough, I'm not without seeing the attraction of believing a promise should be honored regardless of the circumstances in which it was made. Otherwise, what are any of them worth?

OTOH, I also hold the conviction that politicians are the same the world over, so why couldn't they have called one to negotiate? For once "campaign promises" could have come in handy...
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Old 2010-08-24, 16:16   Link #8753
Yu Ominae
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I agree that the Special Action Force should have been brought in to assist/lead in the situation. Although they're CT-based, they do have a good record against common criminal gangs too.

I've read some of the comments and they've said the ex-officer should be held accountable instead of the SWAT team that initiated the raid. And not all PNP SWAT teams have "good" equipment like police CT units do in HK and Macau, Singapore, Japan and South Korea. Not all of the money meant to modernize them is appropriately funded. In that case, we all know who to blame on that part.

One person in another forum said they should ask the HK government for help.

I would've initially said, "How, the SDU? That would've broken jurisdiction rules."
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Old 2010-08-24, 17:24   Link #8754
Tiberium Wolf
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Quote:
2. Lack of equipment
... "They almost looked like a group of vandals." ...
I LOLed at this part.


Mexico drugs cartel influence map

Anyway look at this Mexico map. I wonder which areas does the government controls.
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Last edited by Tiberium Wolf; 2010-08-24 at 17:36.
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Old 2010-08-24, 18:00   Link #8755
Roger Rambo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
This is the REAL SWAT. Shame on you, PNP.
The big reason for the Germans becoming so dedicated for organizing such effective counter terrorism units is because they learned first hand how disastrous trying to deal with such situations with conventional police at the 1972 Munich Olympics.

That was a cluster fuck on the level of what happened with this bus here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not to deny the firefighters' obvious courage, or that the hostage rescue was a screw-up, but I don't think those situations are comparable. In the 9/11 case, the danger was a building that was maybe going to go down sometime within the next few hours. In the assault, well, the guys backed off when they were being shot at right at that instant, and they were trapped in a confined place.
You're still missing the point that there are hostage rescue teams that DO handle things like this. Note the video that animetheme posted. This is a difficult situation, but it's not one that a properly trained team can't handle in a way that will keep it from turning into a cluster fuck.



edit:This is incredible.



The hostage taker is completely exposed here. A sniper staying constantly trained on the bus door could have easily taken him. Hell, without his rifle at the ready, the two negotiators could have pulled him out of the bus and had him overpowered.
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Old 2010-08-24, 18:06   Link #8756
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Good food for that situation anyways. Pretty much every macronutrient.
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Old 2010-08-24, 18:40   Link #8757
Yu Ominae
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Unconfirmed reports that a OFW was fired from her jobs by her HK-based employers.

If it's true, I don't think it's right since the OFW had nothing to do with the drama. I just don't none of my countrymen get killed out there since the President's worried about something like that.
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Old 2010-08-24, 19:45   Link #8758
Roger Rambo
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This seems relevant considering all the issues with that botched Filipino bus rescue (skip to 1:06)



The key thing here is that the Russian hostage rescue team got the windows on the bus broken quickly and immediately followed that with flash bangs and storming the vehicle from multiple entry points.
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Old 2010-08-24, 21:38   Link #8759
Vexx
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
This might be more relevant in the various anime merchandise threads... but today the yen hit a 15 year high against the dollar. A US dollar only buys you 83 yen today. As a comparison, two years ago a dollar would get you 110-120 yen.

Sucks for purchasers of Japanese products and sucks for industries in Japan.
An 8000 yen figure that cost you $67 two years ago now costs $96 and that was discounting inflationary rises.
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Old 2010-08-25, 03:33   Link #8760
Langus
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It's GREAT for those of us living in Japan and sending money home
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