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Old 2010-09-21, 19:35   Link #9061
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
most Palestinians would rather move to Djibouti rather then live in a Palestinian state.
Between corrupt and incompetent PLO officials and crazy fundamentalist Hamas terrorists, living in such a country isn't an enticing prospect.
They live there now with the threat of Israel bombing them and the same corruption issues. With the threat of Israel bombing them removed, or at least minimized, and international support for rebuilding, life would be much better than currently. The desire for a homeland can be a powerful thing. How would you, as an Israeli like to be told you had to leave your home and come to the US? What makes you think Palestinians will be more open to it after getting a nation to call their own?

Quote:
P.S
the US has a yearly lottery that gives citizenship rights to 50,000 people (and their family).
its not that much of a stretch
No, they don't. You're thinking of the green card lottery. A green card is not the same thing as citizenship. Also that's 50,000 people from various nations all over the world. This is 100,000 from one nation and granting them citizenship. That's a rather large difference.
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Old 2010-09-21, 20:27   Link #9062
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
They live there now with the threat of Israel bombing them and the same corruption issues. With the threat of Israel bombing them removed, or at least minimized, and international support for rebuilding, life would be much better than currently. The desire for a homeland can be a powerful thing. How would you, as an Israeli like to be told you had to leave your home and come to the US? What makes you think Palestinians will be more open to it after getting a nation to call their own?.
how many people do you know who would choose to live in a 3rd world arab dictatorship if they could choose between that and living in the US ?

P.S
the risk of Israel bombing them is limited at this point to those living in Gaza, and they aren't the people being discussed


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
No, they don't. You're thinking of the green card lottery. A green card is not the same thing as citizenship. Also that's 50,000 people from various nations all over the world. This is 100,000 from one nation and granting them citizenship. That's a rather large difference.
the lottery is limited only to those countries where the NORMAL immigration is under 100,000
in other words, half the countries in the world can be part of the lottery, because they ALL have more then 100,000 people a year immigrate to the US.
and a green card means the same thing ultimately
they get to live and work in the US, which is preferable to living in a 3rd world state.
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Old 2010-09-21, 21:08   Link #9063
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
how many people do you know who would choose to live in a 3rd world arab dictatorship if they could choose between that and living in the US ?

P.S
the risk of Israel bombing them is limited at this point to those living in Gaza, and they aren't the people being discussed
By that logic, why doesn't everyone in third world dictatorships come to the US? After all, the same thing would apply to quite a few nations. Also you dodged the question. If you were told you had to leave Israel and come to the US, would you be happy about it?



Quote:
the lottery is limited only to those countries where the NORMAL immigration is under 100,000
in other words, half the countries in the world can be part of the lottery, because they ALL have more then 100,000 people a year immigrate to the US.
and a green card means the same thing ultimately
they get to live and work in the US, which is preferable to living in a 3rd world state.
No, instant citizenship is quite different from a visa to come to the US. That's why the offer is so hard to believe. Do you honestly not see the difference?
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Old 2010-09-21, 21:24   Link #9064
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
By that logic, why doesn't everyone in third world dictatorships come to the US? After all, the same thing would apply to quite a few nations. Also you dodged the question. If you were told you had to leave Israel and come to the US, would you be happy about it?
for the first part.
most 3rd world people would LOVE to immigrate to the US if they could.
but since most of the third would cant AFFORD to do so (the US isn't cheap) its more then just a matter of wanting to.
plus, its bound to annoy the locals.

as for the "dodged" question.
if i was offered a chance, i myself would probably pass on it, but i know plenty of people who wouldn't.
my main reason for passing, is that the US can't offer me a much better lifestyle then i enjoy now, at least not to the degree that would justify leaving my life behind everything we spent 62 years building up.
and those people i mentioned who would move if given the chance, would do so for business reasons (the US presents more opportunity in may fields).

i have a quality of life, future prospects, and ideological attachment that make it worth for me to stay in Israel.
someone living in the west bank, at best, has the third one.
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Old 2010-09-21, 21:47   Link #9065
Nosauz
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It's kind of sad that American Soldiers killing Civs for sport just isn't a headline that is polarizing enough. If this isn't the call to stop these pointless wars I really don't know what the military could do to convince the warhawks that their efforts have done nothing for our safety at the price of our international reputation.
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Old 2010-09-21, 23:30   Link #9066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
It's kind of sad that American Soldiers killing Civs for sport just isn't a headline that is polarizing enough. If this isn't the call to stop these pointless wars I really don't know what the military could do to convince the warhawks that their efforts have done nothing for our safety at the price of our international reputation.
Over the last five years, the "volunteer" military has been having to reduce the requirements for entry to the point that criminal backgrounds and psych evals aren't automatic disqualifiers anymore. Even relatively stable people can start losing it after 3-5 deployments in combat zones.
Our government doesn't seem to be able to restrain itself from "mission creep" which heavily implies the initial reasons we deploy have little to with the actual reasons... :P
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Old 2010-09-22, 00:00   Link #9067
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...r_program.html

Very interesting article about industry sabotage using the Stuxnet worm, multiple Windows/Hardware driver exploits, PLC insider knowledge and intelligence.

Affected systems are 1st stage: Memory sticks, 2nd stage: WinCC industry Panel+PLC configuration software, 3rd stage: the PLC itself.

This is certainly not a single person's job (for this the attack software is way too sophisticated and specialized). It seems to be meant to infiltrate and sabotage the iranian nuclear program.
The dev has previously attacked JMicron and Realtek, which are Taiwanese hardware companies.

So it is not just Iran - what grudge has Israel with Taiwan? I am more suspicious that this is the work of China.
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Old 2010-09-22, 00:17   Link #9068
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Commonwealth Games: More Australian athletes 'may quit'

Things are getting worse. I think India should save face and admit they can't host the games. Rushing the job will only cause alot of accidents for everyone.
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Old 2010-09-22, 00:41   Link #9069
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The dev has previously attacked JMicron and Realtek, which are Taiwanese hardware companies.

So it is not just Iran - what grudge has Israel with Taiwan? I am more suspicious that this is the work of China.
I did not say it comes from Israel. But your argument is not a disqualifier btw. - just because someone uses a "known" exploit doesn't mean that someone has a grudge against the country of the technologies' origin.
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Old 2010-09-22, 00:49   Link #9070
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
I did not say it comes from Israel. But your argument is not a disqualifier btw. - just because someone uses a "known" exploit doesn't mean that someone has a grudge against the country of the technologies' origin.
I am arguing against the article. It is written in a way that points fingers at Israel.

It may not just be a grudge, but rather espionage to gain the blueprints desired technologies. On the other hand, this may be a contracted group of hackers, maybe CDC or similar.

Nonetheless, the worm doesn't seem to have this a control or destroy command, it is only meant to disable a system somehow. If it is really Israel which want to mount another Operation Orchard on Bushehr, it is going to be an epic fail and start WWIII.
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Old 2010-09-22, 01:18   Link #9071
Jinto
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
... If it is really Israel which want to mount another Operation Orchard on Bushehr, it is going to be an epic fail and start WWIII.
Why do you think this would start a world war?

The attackers knew exactly which operation blocks had to be alterated for the sabotage. OB35 is not used in every PLC program. There are a lot of other conditional triggers in the attack software that are very attack target specific. I wonder how the attackers would know about this without knowing exactly what they are attacking (and for what purpose) - the usage of intelligence could be a very likely scenario here.

Such operations typically cannot be tracked back 100% accurate if the investigation is blocked somewhere on state level, so in the end the originating place of the attack software will likely remain a product of speculation.

Last edited by Jinto; 2010-09-22 at 01:52.
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Old 2010-09-22, 06:22   Link #9072
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i have a quality of life, future prospects, and ideological attachment that make it worth for me to stay in Israel.
someone living in the west bank, at best, has the third one.
That third one is the most important one to many. Also, a Palestinian state give hope for the first two. I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me about this. It was only part of the reason I found the alleged offer hard to believe was made.
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Old 2010-09-22, 06:44   Link #9073
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Over the last five years, the "volunteer" military has been having to reduce the requirements for entry to the point that criminal backgrounds and psych evals aren't automatic disqualifiers anymore. Even relatively stable people can start losing it after 3-5 deployments in combat zones.
Our government doesn't seem to be able to restrain itself from "mission creep" which heavily implies the initial reasons we deploy have little to with the actual reasons... :P
Well I also blame the combination of multiple deployments at year long intervals, having men and women serving multiple tours of duty consecutively even when their psych evals do not give them the go ahead because of the real troop shortage. The fact that the requirements for the all volunteer military have drop just compound the toll of war and multiple deployments. It's just that we've stepped up from just cover up of civilian collateral damage that our government tries to hide. We've moved to soldiers using false flags to justify the killing of innocent civilians. So much for the hearts and minds.
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Old 2010-09-22, 07:37   Link #9074
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
That third one is the most important one to many. Also, a Palestinian state give hope for the first two. I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me about this. It was only part of the reason I found the alleged offer hard to believe was made.
1)the reason why i suspect that the first two options aren't likely is simple
the palestinian cause is the worlds largest charity case, drawing in billions every year.
charity only works when the people you gather it for are miserable.
hence, the people who run the Palestinian authority have a vested interest in keeping their people miserable in order to keep the cash coming.
why kill their cash cow ?

in effect, what you have developing in the west bank is a charity dependent welfare state,
hence, no quality of life
and little prospect of it changing in the future.

and its NOT the only part i was arguing about
i pointed out that the US has an immigration policy that could theoretically accept such a number of new immigrants over time.


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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I am arguing against the article. It is written in a way that points fingers at Israel.
for the record, Israel is blamed for pretty much EVERYTHING when it comes to Iran.
so its little surprise that this would also be blamed on us.
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Old 2010-09-22, 07:47   Link #9075
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post

for the record, Israel is blamed for pretty much EVERYTHING when it comes to Iran.
so its little surprise that this would also be blamed on us.
It has nothing to do with what Mosad has done... like using other national passports and going to other sovereign countries to avoid the due process of justice in capturing and killing their political enemies.
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Old 2010-09-22, 07:52   Link #9076
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
1)the reason why i suspect that the first two options aren't likely is simple
the palestinian cause is the worlds largest charity case, drawing in billions every year.
charity only works when the people you gather it for are miserable.
hence, the people who run the Palestinian authority have a vested interest in keeping their people miserable in order to keep the cash coming.
why kill their cash cow ?

in effect, what you have developing in the west bank is a charity dependent welfare state,
hence, no quality of life
and little prospect of it changing in the future.
An argument that once again could be made about a good number of nations. Even if it's a corrupt cesspool it's still their homeland. Plus they can get away with that now by blaming everything on the Israelis. That will be harder to to with an independent Palestinian state, unless Israel does something stupid like maintain a naval blockade.

Quote:
and its NOT the only part i was arguing about
i pointed out that the US has an immigration policy that could theoretically accept such a number of new immigrants over time.
It doesn't say grant them visas for immigration, it says grant them citizenship. Once again do you honestly not see the difference?
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Old 2010-09-22, 07:54   Link #9077
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
It has nothing to do with what Mosad has done... like using other national passports and going to other sovereign countries to avoid the due process of justice in capturing and killing their political enemies.
hunting down palestinian terrorists in Dubai (if indeed it really was mossad) and actively sabotaging a fully operational nuclear reactor is quite different from one another.

that guy in Dubai was killed with such pin point efficiency, that it was over a day before anyone even noticed that he died.
zero collateral damage, and zero environmental damage.
damaging a working reactor could have massive consequences that can kill thousands of people

P.S
if the due process was applied towards palestinian terrorists, mossad wouldn't have to hunt them down and kill them.
the question wasn't "why did mossad kill him"
the question is "why was he allowed to roam free in Dubai".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
An argument that once again could be made about a good number of nations. Even if it's a corrupt cesspool it's still their homeland. Plus they can get away with that now by blaming everything on the Israelis. That will be harder to to with an independent Palestinian state, unless Israel does something stupid like maintain a naval blockade.
the west bank has no sea access, so its kinda hard (or rather, very easy) to maintain a naval blockade over it
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Old 2010-09-22, 08:03   Link #9078
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the west bank has no sea access, so its kinda hard (or rather, very easy) to maintain a naval blockade over it
The Gaza Strip, however, does. Any lasting deal will have to cede that to the new Palestinian state.
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Old 2010-09-22, 08:08   Link #9079
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a state that doesn't daily shoot rockets into nearby Israeli towns.
And it's not unreasonable for Israel to want to make sure that any ships going into Gaza aren't carrying weapons.

Israel has bent over backwards to try and make a Palestinian state. Not much has come of it
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Old 2010-09-22, 08:12   Link #9080
Kamui4356
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a state that doesn't daily shoot rockets into nearby Israeli towns.
And it's not unreasonable for Israel to want to make sure that any ships going into Gaza aren't carrying weapons.

Israel has bent over backwards to try and make a Palestinian state. Not much has come of it
I would not call allowing Israeli settlers to move into Palestinian areas bending over backwards to try to make a Palestinian state.
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