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Old 2010-11-30, 13:40   Link #10201
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Swiss must ensure deportees not at risk
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...6AT35320101130
[Quote]The U.N. urged Switzerland on Tuesday to ensure it did not expel refugees to a country where they could face mistreatment, after Swiss voters backed automatic deportation of foreigners convicted of serious crimes. ...[/ Quote]
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:31   Link #10202
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctis Lucis View Post
Obviously, this is a debate between the freedom of information vs state sovereignty.
Not quite. Because the lines you draw so precisely in theory are very blured in reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctis Lucis View Post
However, if one looks at the quality of the cable documents leaked by Assange, they obviously provide more information than your usual FOI request. However, most of this information is of the kind that you'd tell your friend in confidence. How'd feel if that person then told it to someone else? Not the most pleasant feeling, I'd tell you.
If you really think a capable politician does not know what others think of him/her, then you underestimate them a little bit. This is basically a game between born liars and tactitians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctis Lucis View Post
Anyways, that aside, the fact that the information was dug out without permission or knowledge of the authority concerned, is clearly trespass. That in itself is a crime, whether you agree with it or not.
Technically invading iraq was a crime too. I cannot remember any US politician taking responsibility for that. Jurisdiction of others is a thing you need to be concerned about when you are a) in reach of those powers b) not sufficiently powerful yourself c) in the wrong team. I just wanted to show you the twilight zone of argumenting for state souvereignity (and at the same time presenting a prime example of a state that disregards other state's souvereignity every now and then).

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Originally Posted by Noctis Lucis View Post
He purportedly advocates a "transparent" and "scientific" approach to journalism, saying that "you can't publish a paper on physics without the full experimental data and results; that should be the standard in journalism. Obviously, he's confused politics with academics.
His point was journalism, not politics. Everyone knows that politics is just a dirty game (that would be funny, if politicians were only allowed to use scientifically proven material in their election campaigns ~ wait that actually sounds good... but its just wishful thinking - never going to happen). No I don't think it is meant to teach politicians a lesson (thats impossible anyway because of the egos).

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Originally Posted by Noctis Lucis View Post
But the diplomatic cables are ONE STEP TOO FAR. Diplomacy is about relationships with other nations, and having someone pry into such relations, while fully morally justified, is ethically flawed. Maybe he's trying to bring Australia against the US.
Somehow I think the only people really surprised about those releases are the masses who are fed with the correct world view by the local mass media (Insiders can hardly be surprised by the content of those cables). If this makes people rethink the quality of their local media... it might have an effect on journalism standards in general (for the better or worse remains to be seen).
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Old 2010-11-30, 14:42   Link #10203
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post


Somehow I think the only people really surprised about those releases are the masses who are fed with the correct world view by the local mass media (Insiders can hardly be surprised by the content of those cables). If this makes people rethink the quality of their local media... it might have an effect on journalism standards in general (for the better or worse remains to be seen).
i doubt anyone is actually surprise by what was reveal in the leaks but the diplomacy game is base on lies, lies and more lies. the truth reveal at this point i think will do more damage then good.

Which is why i want manning executed by a firing squad. It is on ething to reveal possible war crimes and atrocities but it is another reveal information that serves no purpose except in embarrassing your country and putting delicate diplomatic work at risk.
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:03   Link #10204
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i doubt anyone is actually surprise by what was reveal in the leaks but the diplomacy game is base on lies, lies and more lies. the truth reveal at this point i think will do more damage then good.
I bet against it, if you win I post a new photo in the post your picture thread. If I win you will post one... ah wait this cannot be decided... since there is no parallel universe for a comparison (so much for the unprovable claim that it will do more damage than good).
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Old 2010-11-30, 15:39   Link #10205
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The Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agency is shutting down file sharing websites. I assume they would mainly go after international copyright infringements, but who knows with the DHS.

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-va...-domain-names-
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Old 2010-11-30, 16:58   Link #10206
bladeofdarkness
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this is another example of the damage wiki leak can cause.
it can set back important developments.

the following pic details a conversation between a US representative and Israeli PM benjamin Netanyau.
in it, Netanyau reveals that Israel and Iraq have considerable trade relations between them, but that its kept hushed up and out of public knowledge.
Iraq's official policy (even after Saddams fall) is that it refuses to recognize Israel or to have any relations with it.
anyone who knows anything about middle eastern politics and specifically Israel's relationship with Iraq will understand the significance of this fact, the positiveness of this development, and the reason why its kept hushed up.

Spoiler for wikileak doc.:


you can bet your ass that whatever trade relations exist today, will be gone before the year is out.
and thats a big step backwards for peace.
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Old 2010-11-30, 17:08   Link #10207
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
you can bet your ass that whatever trade relations exist today, will be gone before the year is out.
and thats a big step backwards for peace.
Nah, I for one don't. Money is thicker than blood... or something like that... and besides there is no specific business mentioned.
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Old 2010-11-30, 17:22   Link #10208
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Nah, I for one don't. Money is thicker than blood... or something like that... and besides there is no specific business mentioned.
i hope thats true
but any business dealings between countries has to be approved by the government itself (who can also forbid such trade).
and in the middle east you'll be surprised how thick blood can be.

you need to remember that this is Iraq we're talking about here.
even by the standards of the Arab world, Iraq's always been exceptionally hateful of Israel.
the country doesn't even share a border with Israel, and yet sent ground forces to aid in attacking it during several wars
the country that offered cash rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers for killing Israeli civilians.
the country that, during desert storm, while at war with half the world, took time out of its busy schedule to fire 40 Scuds at Israel (who wasn't even involved in the war).
when, after Saddam was overthrown, some american diplomat commented that he doesn't think there is any reason why the new Iraq wouldn't be able to establish relations with Israel, the immediate official Iraqi government response was to reject that possibility outright.

publicly admitting that trade exists between the two countries is politically damaging to the Iraqi government.
they may end up taking damage controlling actions to correct that.
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Old 2010-11-30, 17:56   Link #10209
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the country that offered cash rewards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers for killing Israeli civilians.
the country that, during desert storm, while at war with half the world, took time out of its busy schedule to fire 40 Scuds at Israel (who wasn't even involved in the war).
The cash rewards was probably more of a Public Relation Operation, and firing the Scud was a move to force the hand of Israel into entering into the conflict, action than would probably trigered the withdrawal of the others arab country of the coalition.
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Old 2010-11-30, 18:00   Link #10210
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
The cash rewards was probably more of a Public Relation Operation, and firing the Scud was a move to force the hand of Israel into entering into the conflict, action than would probably trigered the withdrawal of the others arab country of the coalition.
everything has a reason behind it.
my main point was that Iraq has historically always been more hostile then most arab states when it comes to Israel.
this happend before Saddam took power (in 1948) and after he was overthrown (like i said about that comment).
its an Iraqi policy thing.

that Israel and Iraq have developed considerable trade relations is an excellent development.
the NEWS of it, on the other hand, may end up putting an end to it.
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:00   Link #10211
yezhanquan
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Again, Assange brings nothing new to the table. Come on, these so-called secret documents contained stuff which are par for the course. Diplomacy is "speaking politely in public, and being brutally honest in private". While hardly flattering, can any world leader mentioned in the cables look at himself/herself in the mirror and completely deny what's been written about them?

Assange, please come back when you really have something which the average observer worth his salt had never even remotely thought of. Talking about the elephant in the living room is exciting for academics and historians.... and that's about it.
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:12   Link #10212
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctis Lucis View Post
Only if Pyongyang is in control. If DPRK gets subsumed into the Rep of Korea, it'd be more or less to Asia what France is to Europe.
A hypernationalist France, that is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Wait what? How would a reunified Korea be the worst threat for China? They have roughly 17 times a unified Korea's population.
Which they cannot mobilize enough to get to Manchuria. A reunified Korea would also be worth the same as the entire PRC military, in terms of strength.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Not to mention Korea would take decades rebuilding the north and fully integrating the economies. Look at Germany. Twenty years later, and the east still lags behind the west, and the economic gap between them was far less than the gap that exists between North and South Korea.
There is no intentions on full integration. All plans for post-reunification economy has the north being separate from the south, and used as a place for labor intenstive industries.

Korea does not want to repeat the mistakes of German.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Well looking at your location, you are proving the nationalism part correct.
Yes, I'm a nationalist Japanese/Korean who believes the Koreas and Japan needs to form a union, develop nuclear weapons, and be the counterweight to a reunified China. This isn't a joke, btw.
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:16   Link #10213
yezhanquan
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Consolidation of a unified Korea would take decades, and a Japanese/Korean Union? Ain't gonna happen. Those 2 would fight another war first before the question of a union can be settled.

Like it or not, a unified Korea requires the consent of the PRC. If the PRC is not sure that its interests are protected if such a thing happen, unification will not happen. Period.

Point taken on it not being a joke. Still, the PRC is sitting on the prize (mostly).
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:22   Link #10214
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Consolidation of a unified Korea would take decades, and a Japanese/Korean Union? Ain't gonna happen. Those 2 would fight another war first before the question of a union can be settled.
Yes, I know, It's just a goal I support.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Like it or not, a unified Korea requires the consent of the PRC. If the PRC is not sure that its interests are protected if such a thing happen, unification will not happen. Period.
Korea is not Germany. It does not need the consent of anyone for reunification. That's only to make the neighbors comfortable with the situation.
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:25   Link #10215
MrTerrorist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Nah, I for one don't. Money is thicker than blood... or something like that... and besides there is no specific business mentioned.
Actually, it already known that some Arabs countries do trade with Israel but won't officially admit it. I remember two news stories about Israel secretly selling uniforms to the Palestinians and oranges to Iran.
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:26   Link #10216
yezhanquan
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If the PRC puts itself as an obstacle for unification, I reckon that there is no way for South Korea to reunify the peninsula by itself, even with US help. Also, the US will not want Korea to grow too strong for it to break free of US influence completely.
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:31   Link #10217
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
If the PRC puts itself as an obstacle for unification, I reckon that there is no way for South Korea to reunify the peninsula by itself, even with US help. Also, the US will not want Korea to grow too strong for it to break free of US influence completely.
The problem is, if DPRK agrees to reunification, any act by PRC to stop it by occupation will be an act of war, in which ROK can intervene. And when that happens......

Shall I continue? After all, the only thing China has right now which is of advantage against ROK is manpower, and even that isn't that much an advantage.
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:35   Link #10218
yezhanquan
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DPRK agreeing? Wow, I'll wait for moon colonisation.

Seriously, the DPRK military is like the Myanmar junta. They want their riches, they will not share it and they will fight to the death for the right to hold onto it.

We Chinese have a saying for it: 人为财死,鸟为食亡. Literally "Man will die for wealth, and so will birds for food".
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:38   Link #10219
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
DPRK agreeing? Wow, I'll wait for moon colonisation.

Seriously, the DPRK military is like the Myanmar junta. They want their riches, they will not share it and they will fight to the death for the right to hold onto it.
More of fight for the right to not be prosecuted when reunification actually happens. DPRK is trapped in a Catch-22: They've gone so far down that only by continuing the regime can they survive.

Anyway, is there any substantial argument you wish to have?
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Old 2010-11-30, 20:42   Link #10220
yezhanquan
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You're still operating on the basis that unification will come. From how I see it, there seems to be a hardening of attitudes in the South that unification is undesirable. Logistically and politically, the odds are against it so much that I probably will live to see it only if I go to 90 and above.

As for the North, their idea of unification is to change the South in their image. Wow.
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