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Old 2010-12-10, 21:05   Link #10541
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Again, you're making the kids pay for the parents' bad behavior. They are not responsible.

You're right, perhaps I should clarify, it was the most retarded, articulated post I've ever seen. Like you're trumping your own intelligence somehow. I didn't think that was even possible.
And as I said earlier, you are rewarding bad behavior. I can't, for the life of me, figure out people who do that. It makes absolutely no sense, and downplays all of the effort of those who do come here legally to become U.S. citizens.

Thank you for not living here. We don't need your kind of votes.

And what Frenchie is saying, is that these kids have a right to something, that's never been given before, and shouldn't be given. He is creating rights out of thin air.
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Old 2010-12-10, 21:30   Link #10542
MrTerrorist
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Liu Xiaobo: China's Nobel public affairs disaster

Can somebody say "Major Embarrassment"?
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Old 2010-12-10, 21:31   Link #10543
yezhanquan
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What Justin is saying is: So what if you're not responsible? We want you to go back and come again for a second try the legal way, preferably with your parents.

And on the Nobel issue: That's what I call doing a "China".
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Old 2010-12-10, 21:41   Link #10544
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
As it should.
i change my mind
i'm game if they revise it further

example... lower the age cap for eligibility for the DREAM Act to 21 (not 29) on the date of enactment

and gotta make it narrow as possible to keep out potential fraudsters and those who 'game the system'
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Old 2010-12-10, 22:14   Link #10545
MeoTwister5
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In reality, whether you're responsible or not, you still need to do it the legal way as dictated by the system you want to enter. Of course I have a leaning towards some degrees of allowance and leniency for people who do not possess or have the capacity to exercise complete control and understanding for their actions.

So as per that law, I personally think that the children should still have to do things according to the INS protocols, but to a method that is different and less stringent than that of their parents.
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:10   Link #10546
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Liu Xiaobo: China's Nobel public affairs disaster

Can somebody say "Major Embarrassment"?
It was pretty much the more previsible result than it could happen.
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:14   Link #10547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
You don't understand. The legislation is all about making those boys and girls that crossed the border below 16 yo legal immigrants. so they CAN pursue and become legal citizens/green card holders, in line with everybody else.

What justinstrife is saying is that these kids shouldn't be given the right and should be deported because of their parents' irresponsible actions.

I strongly disagree.
just want to point out the parents action are deliberate and calculated not irresponsible. The parent knew exactly what they are doing.
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:18   Link #10548
Nosauz
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All you guys are idiots who think that the Children of immigrants legal or not should pay for the sins of their parents. It's like having to pay debts of the dead. All the things you are in favor of are to punish people with ability to change their circumstance. I bet most of those kids are pissed off at their parents for putting them in such a predicament. I'm a legal resident alien now but I too had to go through a lengthy expensive process that cost nearly 30k dollars just so that we could properly navigate the legal minefield that is the naturalization process. I mean if you think about the difficulties of making it in America already and then you want to punish the kids it just seems asinine when you can gain these skilled people to add to the work force. I don't endorse illegal immigration but punishing those without the power to affect the change they want is unjust, laws are meant to be just, but then again in Corporatist America, laws are meant to keep the plebeians in check.

@xellos^, their just like my parents, wanting to give me the best chances to succeed, why should the children of these parents be punished? Why? Because they can't control what their parents do, they can't do anything without their parents.
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Old 2010-12-10, 23:21   Link #10549
Asuras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Thank you for not living here. We don't need your kind of votes.
I could say the same to you. You so constantly link an innocent childs potential to the mistakes of their parents. Why can't the children become citizens? Answer that to me. Don't tell me about their parents. Tell me why they shouldn't be allowed to become citizens. Not the parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
just want to point out the parents action are deliberate and calculated not irresponsible. The parent knew exactly what they are doing.
This contributed nothing; it's already obvious that they knew what they were doing. Mexicans aren't dumbasses, as so many Americans seem to think.
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Old 2010-12-11, 01:51   Link #10550
justinstrife
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Because the children are not suppose to be here! They are here illegally! ILLEGALLY. Do these words mean NOTHING to you all? They have no right to be here. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Whether they had a say in what their parents did or not, is IRRELEVANT! They are still here illegally!

The fact that I have to repeat the word illegal a thousand times, and people still argue with me about that word.... It's absolutely amazing to me that illegal means NOTHING to you guys.
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Old 2010-12-11, 01:54   Link #10551
Asuras
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So, if I was kicked out of a plane with no room to parachute back to my side of the river, and accidentally (and unavoidably) land on the wrong side, I'm there illegally?
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Old 2010-12-11, 02:05   Link #10552
MeoTwister5
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Illegality and accountability these days more often than not is still based on capacity to control and comprehend said actions. There's a reason why the law delineates adults and children between those who SHOULD know right from wrong and by extension cannot claim ignorance of the law (adults), and those who are deemed not to fully understand just what the hell is happening and what they are "doing" (children). There's a reason child cases and issues are handled very, VERY differently from adult cases.

The problem with the law is that it makes no distinction between what the law has established that delineates a child who doesn't really know right from wrong, illegal from legal, from an adult who has no excuse not to know or to break them due to ignorance. It aims to treat children like adults, fully accountable for their acts in a land where child crimes are special cases handled by completely different courts.

So then, double standard. Prosecute the adult because by law they are doing something illegal and thus held accountable for their actions. Is the child of an illegal deemed and treated completely different from the child of a natural born or naturalized and subject to completely different laws?
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Old 2010-12-11, 02:10   Link #10553
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Because the children are not suppose to be here! They are here illegally! ILLEGALLY. Do these words mean NOTHING to you all? They have no right to be here. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Whether they had a say in what their parents did or not, is IRRELEVANT! They are still here illegally!

The fact that I have to repeat the word illegal a thousand times, and people still argue with me about that word.... It's absolutely amazing to me that illegal means NOTHING to you guys.
I think its the *morality* and *practicality* that is the issue for many... if you've got a child who has been raised in the US (and not infrequently doing well in high school or has even gotten into college) and then toss them out of the country, you've left that child "up a creek", traumatized at the uproot, and more practically you've now wasted any money the community has invested in that child. Never mind that the child did not have a say in arriving here in the first place -- you're prosecuting him for something his parents did. This concept offends most people - the idea of punishing children for what their parents did.

There are a lot of things that are illegal in ways that are stupid and poorly executed. I sympathize with my friends who are trying to "do it" the right way (most are professionals) and being screwed around with. I also sympathize with those who don't have those resources and have to try it the "wrong way" because our rules are a byzantine mess of stupidity, xenophobia, and other factors. I'm really unhappy at a Mexico that seems utterly broken in regard to its people.
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Old 2010-12-11, 02:13   Link #10554
Anh_Minh
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I don't think of it as punishing the kids. If parents steal a car and give it to their child, repossessing the car is not punishing the child for the sins of the parents. It's simply putting a wrong to right.

That said, I'd favor a middle road where illegal immigrants had the opportunity to become legal, but by jumping through even more hoops (including, if at all practical, forced labor) than the ones who came legally - because, like Justinstrife, the idea of rewarding bad behavior doesn't sit well with me.
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Old 2010-12-11, 02:15   Link #10555
yezhanquan
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@Vexx: I know I sound a wee bit stupid, but how did it get so bad?
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Old 2010-12-11, 02:24   Link #10556
Vexx
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The INS and immigration authorities in the US have never been anything but a royal mess and an extension of the popular xenophobia of whatever era you pick.

Quote:
I don't think of it as punishing the kids. If parents steal a car and give it to their child, repossessing the car is not punishing the child for the sins of the parents. It's simply putting a wrong to right.
Yet the child is harmed... and not just by the taking of a possession but by a total displacement of their world. Yeah, it sucks either way and the middle ground is murky.
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Old 2010-12-11, 02:45   Link #10557
Frenchie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
And as I said earlier, you are rewarding bad behavior. I can't, for the life of me, figure out people who do that. It makes absolutely no sense, and downplays all of the effort of those who do come here legally to become U.S. citizens.
Rewarding bad behavior? Give me a break, you're not rewarding anything. If this legislation was issuing green cards and citizenships, yes, but that's not the case. According to the legislation, the kids have to have been in the US for 5 consecutive years, attended high school and graduated or joined up in the military since then. What the law would do is give them a chance, because they never even had the chance, to be legal immigrants and pursue the green card or a citizenship.

You're not making their parents legal.

Quote:
Thank you for not living here. We don't need your kind of votes.
I guess it's too bad that half my family lives in the US (L.A and N.Y) and shares many of my viewpoints.

What's really sad is that you claim that your taxes are paying for these illegal aliens. What exactly are you paying for them? Medicaid is a program that they aren't eligible for, just like they aren't eligible for a greencard or a citizenship. Public schools are mostly paid for via property taxes, and they only account for a small percentage. Public schools are also meant to check for residence in the US.
They also happen to provide education to students that aren't necessarily illegal aliens. Did that idea ever strike you? So given all this, what portion of your taxes is really being used to support them?

These illegal aliens also have some basic needs and pay for living space, food, drink and commodities. They are a market of their own.

Such a claim of a minority being a burden on the majority you could perhaps make in France, but not in the US. The very concept is just laughable.
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Old 2010-12-11, 03:00   Link #10558
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
Rewarding bad behavior? Give me a break, you're not rewarding anything. If this legislation was issuing green cards and citizenships, yes, but that's not the case. According to the legislation, the kids have to have been in the US for 5 consecutive years, attended high school and graduated or joined up in the military since then. What the law would do is give them a chance, because they never even had the chance, to be legal immigrants and pursue the green card or a citizenship.
You're still giving them a chance a lot of people don't have - thus, reward. Brought about by doing something illegal in the first place.
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Old 2010-12-11, 03:03   Link #10559
Frenchie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're still giving them a chance a lot of people don't have - thus, reward. Brought about by doing something illegal in the first place.
Even if you talk about 'reward', they were children. Their parent's aren't the ones getting this 'reward', they were the ones committing the crime.
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Old 2010-12-11, 03:04   Link #10560
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Because the children are not suppose to be here! They are here illegally! ILLEGALLY. Do these words mean NOTHING to you all? They have no right to be here. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Whether they had a say in what their parents did or not, is IRRELEVANT! They are still here illegally!

The fact that I have to repeat the word illegal a thousand times, and people still argue with me about that word.... It's absolutely amazing to me that illegal means NOTHING to you guys.
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is right on a moral grounds. This is why there is the move to make a law that makes it less illegal (something is illegal because it is against law, but since law is not a fixed state matter, illegality can shift - if there is a will to do so). So basing your argument solely on illegality is somewhat counter productive, since it is no real argument. If there was made a law that made it not illegal your whole argument would crumble.
If you are against a certain category of immigrants state some hands on reasons (that do not use the indirection of law), for example:

[sarcasm]
I am against the law, because it would give more incentives for parents to try to come to the USA in order to give their children a better chance to succeed in their lifes. I am also against the law, since this will further contribute to the erosion of law enforcement in the border regions. Furthermore I am against that law, because it allows some businesses on the US' side of the border region to benefit from very low paid workers. I'ld rather like those businesses move to e.g. Mexico and other low paying countries where they are out of my sight and pay their dirty money (taxes) to other countries (they don't pay many taxes in the USA to begin with, so its no big loss).
I am against the law, because I like to have a heritage based adavantage over people from elsewhere. The principle of free/deregulated markets and tax cuts must stop when it starts to hurt my competitivness. So, I am basically against this law, because in my heart I already realized that the fairytale of equal chances and everyone can become middle class and the markets can grow endlessly doesn't work - which I am conciously denying of course. Since wealth distribution isn't fair at all, I want to preserve my advantages and hence my point of view in the matter.
[/sarcasm]
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