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Old 2010-12-15, 23:05   Link #10681
yezhanquan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Sorry, but the Founding Fathers were not interested in the Government restricting firearms so that it was almost impossible to get them. The 2nd Amendment does not exist just to protect the citizens from everyday criminals. It was also put in so that the citizens could protect themselves from an oppressive government.
Just so you know: The era of the Founding Fathers are over.
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Old 2010-12-15, 23:08   Link #10682
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Just so you know: The era of the Founding Fathers are over.
And that changes the Constitution/Federalist Papers, and all of the other Founding Documents of the United States how?

Are you saying that the Constitution should be irrelevant too?
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Old 2010-12-15, 23:15   Link #10683
yezhanquan
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It is not irrelevant, but some things (interpretations) have to change.

Many of the Founding Fathers were slave owners. They did not put a ban on slavery for fears of a split. Yet, eventually slavery was banned. So yeah, interpretations have changed through the ages.
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Old 2010-12-15, 23:22   Link #10684
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Just so you know: The era of the Founding Fathers are over.
Not as long as the Federal Constitution exits its not.
In fact, article 1 section 8 clauses 15 and 16 are still in effect and thus congress has the power to "provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions."

The militia is clearly defined in Title 10, Section 311 of the United States Code.

The second amendment adds to this that the right of the people to be armed "shall not be infringed."

I think what gets lost in all these arguments is the fact that banning guns IS unconstitutional in the United States.
What's not unconstitutional is making training to own a gun mandatory, which is what the founders wanted in the first place.
The Militia Act of 1792 makes this perfectly clear.
That's why the Constitution gives congress the power to "regulate [train] the militia."
The right is coupled with a responsibility.
Yes, the people have the right to any types of arms needed for the militia, however, the Federal government has the right to make you proficient in those arms.

Also, there is no power or right conveyed in the constitution to own slaves.
You're statement is a red herring.
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Old 2010-12-15, 23:27   Link #10685
yezhanquan
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Of course. During the drafting of the document, the consensus was that slavery would not be commented on. Hence, there was no explict word for or against slavery in the final document (Of course, the later 13th Amendment bans slavery). It was a compromise.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:53   Link #10686
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I didn't vote for Brown this time around, and my dad hated him as Governor in his first go-around, but if he goes a long with what he just said, and goes even further than that, I could get onboard with supporting him as long as he doesn't bring back things like the Assault Weapons ban.
I'll support this so long as he gets rid of the 2/3rds vote for raising taxes (at least at the local level) and prop 13.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:56   Link #10687
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Originally Posted by FDW View Post
I'll support this so long as he gets rid of the 2/3rds vote for raising taxes (at least at the local level) and prop 13.
And help increase education funding.

Seriously, I can't help it but pity American kids in school who are the ones who suffer from education funding cuts but the state governors simply sit there and do nothing.
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:03   Link #10688
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
And help increase education funding.

Seriously, I can't help it but pity American kids in school who are the ones who suffer from education funding cuts but the state governors simply sit there and do nothing.
The budget crisis comes largely from two sources: the fact Californians tie up a large chunk of the budget at the ballot through various initiatives that either mandate spending on something or restrict the ability of something to be taxed, and California's local governments are very heavily reliant of Sacramento for a large part their budgets. If we can allow our cities to have more control of their own revenues than a large part of the deficit will disappear.
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:24   Link #10689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
And help increase education funding.

Seriously, I can't help it but pity American kids in school who are the ones who suffer from education funding cuts but the state governors simply sit there and do nothing.
the problem with public education in the California and the US isn't really funding. Funding, class size and bashing the teachers union is really just a convenient excuse. The real problems runs a lot deeper and takes a lot more then the current public is willing to do to fix.

fyi: California spends $8500 per student annually, That is almost as much as my Student loan form 3 yrs of UC college 12 yrs ago. If you tell $8500 per student isn't enough then there is something seriously wrong.
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:24   Link #10690
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
And help increase education funding.

Seriously, I can't help it but pity American kids in school who are the ones who suffer from education funding cuts but the state governors simply sit there and do nothing.
look who's coming to the rescue

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...acilities.html
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:30   Link #10691
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FDW View Post
I'll support this so long as he gets rid of the 2/3rds vote for raising taxes (at least at the local level) and prop 13.
I don't support getting rid of proposition 13. It's the only thing keeping a lot of people in California. Many people who retired years ago, would be forced out due to the increase in property taxes.
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:34   Link #10692
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I'll support this so long as he gets rid of the 2/3rds vote for raising taxes (at least at the local level) and prop 13.
Do you own a Home FDW? As a homeowner in the Bay Area, I can honestly we pay high enough property taxes already.
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:58   Link #10693
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
This, people, marks the beginning of the end of the soon to be former ultrapower we called the US of A. When education cannot be provided to the populace, progress inevitably stops. There is a reason Japan is not doing too well in international tests.
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Old 2010-12-16, 03:40   Link #10694
FDW
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I don't support getting rid of proposition 13. It's the only thing keeping a lot of people in California. Many people who retired years ago, would be forced out due to the increase in property taxes.
I want to get rid of prop 13 mainly for commercial property, I would want residential property to be handled differently, as in keeping the older rate for most existing homes (You property would have to be valued at, say $750,000 to qualify for higher rates), but jack it up in a way that can used as disincentive for more suburban sprawl.
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Old 2010-12-16, 04:07   Link #10695
TinyRedLeaf
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Anwar Ibrahim barred from Parliament for 6 months
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Kuala Lumpur (Dec 16, Thu): Malaysia's ruling coalition won a vote today to ban archrival Anwar Ibrahim and three of his top allies from Parliament for six months, eroding the opposition's legislative influence to precarious levels.

The suspension reduces the opposition to less than one third of Malaysia's 222-member Parliament for the first time since 2008 general elections. That could enable Prime Minister Najib Razak's coalition to change the Constitution and election-district boundaries before the next national polls, which some expect next year.

Anwar was suspended on accusations of making false statements in Parliament last March, when he claimed that the government's programme to promote multiracial unity in the Muslim-majority country was inspired by a 1999 Israeli election campaign.

Anwar and dozens of other opposition legislators stormed out of Parliament's lower house during the vote, which followed scenes of pandemonium and shouting. Some opposition lawmakers held posters denouncing the lower house as "a kangaroo court", claiming that Anwar was unfairly targeted.

Political activity has intensified amid rampant rumours that Datuk Seri Najib will call for national polls next year, even though they are not due until mid-2013. Mr Najib might seek to capitalise on internal bickering in Anwar's three-party alliance, which made spectacular gains in 2008 elections but has since lost some of its lustre.

Anwar has also been distracted by an ongoing trial on charges that he sodomised a male former aide in 2008. He faces a 20-year prison sentence if convicted of the accusation, which he says was fabricated to stem his political ascent. The government denies any conspiracy.

AP
Anwar's trial: What's at stake?
Quote:
Anwar, 62, was convicted of sodomy in August 2000 and sentenced to jail in a trial whose conduct was condemned internationally. The conviction came on top of a six-year sentence for corruption.

Critics say both convictions were aimed at destroying the heir apparent to then-premier Mahathir Mohamad, for opposing Tun Dr Mahathir's management of the 1998 Asian financial crisis.

If found guilty, Anwar could be jailed for 20 years, ending his political career.

Should investors be concerned about the trial?

Yes, after the Allah row, a caning sentence handed down to a young woman caught drinking beer, and continued worries about corruption, Malaysia has been getting its share of bad publicity.

Prime Minister Najib Razak was to enact substantial economic reforms before putting his coalition government on an election footing next year. Although elections do not have to be held until 2013, they are likely to come in 2012.

Faced with the row over the use of "Allah" by religions other than Islam, and the prospect that ethnic Chinese and ethnic Indian voters will not return to the government fold, Datuk Seri Najib may seek to avoid unpopular reforms.

What happens to the opposition if Anwar is jailed?

Malaysia's three-party opposition alliance, despite its election successes in 2008 and in recent by-elections, is prone to bickering and indecision.

Anwar is the glue that holds together the sometimes uneasy alliance of Islamists, a mainly ethnic Chinese party and reformers. If he is sidelined, the government might be able to prise the opposition apart, winning over Parti Islam Se-Malaysia (the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party).

There is no obvious successor to Anwar and there have been rumblings over the quality of his leadership, as well as signs some opposition legislators may shift to the government.

What will be the impact on the government and PM Najib?

The government is obsessed with Anwar at every level. The trial could harden opposition to Mr Najib and if Anwar is found guilty with dubious evidence or procedure, it will certainly tarnish the reputation of Malaysia and its Prime Minister.

REUTERS

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2010-12-16 at 04:20.
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Old 2010-12-16, 04:24   Link #10696
ganbaru
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China PM on India charm offensive, offers to boost trade
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...6BF0TK20101216
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Old 2010-12-16, 09:27   Link #10697
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the problem with public education in the California and the US isn't really funding. Funding, class size and bashing the teachers union is really just a convenient excuse. The real problems runs a lot deeper and takes a lot more then the current public is willing to do to fix.

fyi: California spends $8500 per student annually, That is almost as much as my Student loan form 3 yrs of UC college 12 yrs ago. If you tell $8500 per student isn't enough then there is something seriously wrong.
As you imply the current woes are due to misappropriation of resources. The only real solution is to tear down the current system and start over again. That's not going to be a painless process but the alternative is continuing with the money wasting nonsense we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
It is not irrelevant, but some things (interpretations) have to change.

Many of the Founding Fathers were slave owners. They did not put a ban on slavery for fears of a split. Yet, eventually slavery was banned. So yeah, interpretations have changed through the ages.
This is no doubt the truth. The part I have trouble getting on board with is that this logic applies to the second amendment. I can't help but feel, even in this vastly different age, the original point of the amendment is still relevant. To protect oneself, both from wrongdoing citizens, or from a government system gone awry, hasn't changed since their time.
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Old 2010-12-16, 09:53   Link #10698
MrTerrorist
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Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is granted bail

I expect the reaction of those who do not like Julian Assange to be unpleasant.
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Old 2010-12-16, 10:26   Link #10699
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is granted bail

I expect the reaction of those who do not like Julian Assange to be unpleasant.
not really.
he can't be made to "disappear" if he's in Legal custody.
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Old 2010-12-16, 10:58   Link #10700
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
As you imply the current woes are due to misappropriation of resources. The only real solution is to tear down the current system and start over again. That's not going to be a painless process but the alternative is continuing with the money wasting nonsense we have.
No, it's a culture problem with educators, students, and parents. Teachers who adopt a factory-style production line method of one-size fits all teaching rather than individualized attention; administrators going on power trips and going with unreasonable no-tolerance policies; students being disruptive and disrespectful jackasses, bullies, and gang members; parents who can't teach their kids respect or anything else but insist on banning books or teaching creationism; misplaced focus on sports, etc.


Quote:
or from a government system gone awry, hasn't changed since their time.
I support the the right to own weapons, but I have to point out that a gun will not protect someone from a government that has an army with tanks, jets, and missiles, unless ordinary citizens have the right to own those too.
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