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Old 2010-12-19, 00:07   Link #10781
Xellos-_^
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I think this whole problem would go away if the military would adopt how starship trooper military handles things. Co-ed showers, bunks and tents.

problem solve.
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:21   Link #10782
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Anything to show that this is in fact widespread? Sounds like it's limited in scope but the article is trying to play it up. Though really it seems like it has less to do with allowing gays in the military than general corruption in Russia. Money seems to be the motivation there, not homosexuality.
Good grief, the only reason I posted that article was because of you Kamui.
You made a claim that No other nation has had an issue with allowing gays to serve openly in the military.
That statement is blatantly wrong.

The facts are what they are, don't go trying to put a spin on them because you don't like them.

For anyone who would like more information on this here's the BBC take on it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6356707.stm

The Guardian's story on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...ia.lukeharding

Hopefully the end of DADT will help create more transparency in the military with regard to alleged sexual abuses that have taken place over the years. (see: archived Florida Today article 2003)
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:28   Link #10783
cors8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Good grief, the only reason I posted that article was because of you Kamui.
You made a claim that No other nation has had an issue with allowing gays to serve openly in the military.
That statement is blatantly wrong.

The facts are what they are, don't go trying to put a spin on them because you don't like them.

For anyone who would like more information on this here's the BBC take on it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6356707.stm

The Guardian's story on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...ia.lukeharding

Hopefully the end of DADT will help create more transparency in the military with regard to alleged sexual abuses that have taken place over the years. (see: archived Florida Today article 2003)
I think it is rather pointless though. You can bring up the same examples/arguments against women serving in the military across various countries.

Does that mean it is a good reason to prevent women from serving? I don't believe so.
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:31   Link #10784
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No, I'm not engaging in a "For or Against" argument of any kind here.

All I did was point out that Kumai was wrong in his/her statement.
That's it.

I'm not interesting in preventing anyone from serving.
The military is fully capable of assimilating homosexuals into its ranks.
They've already been there for decades, probably since the inception of the US armed forces.
The point in posting the archive article was to show that there is a problem in the US armed forces with sexual assaults (of both men and women) and I hope the end of DADT will help shed more light on this by allowing the Inspector General's office greater powers to take actions against these crimes (no matter the sexual orientation of the perp).
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:44   Link #10785
Azumanga Davo
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Did I really see a link to Pravda to make a serious point two pages ago? Now that's hilarious.
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:48   Link #10786
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Here's something interesting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz17pc4cvnB
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:54   Link #10787
ganbaru
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Belarus vote set to extend 16-year Lukashenko rule
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...6BH1TY20101218
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Old 2010-12-19, 01:00   Link #10788
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Belarus vote set to extend 16-year Lukashenko rule
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...6BH1TY20101218
The Soviet Union maybe long gone but the influence of Russia still remains.
The part where the article said:

Quote:
The police and KGB state security warned on the eve of the vote that they would deal "decisively" with any attempts to stir tensions.
Tells volumes of why Lukashenko is still in power.
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Old 2010-12-19, 04:46   Link #10789
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On DADT, as a serviceman in my country, I would only mind if a fellow soldier who is gay forces himself on me, which I understand is not how gays work in general. Apart from that, they fight and they die, so what shouldn't they be free from the need to lie?
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Old 2010-12-19, 05:43   Link #10790
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
The problem is Russia needs major military reform. They should follow the US and Chinese examples and transition to an all volunteer force. Of course that would result in a downsizing of Russia's military, and with NATO to the west, and China to the south-east, it's a difficult sale to make to the leadership, especially since Russia was a world power with such a system in place during the Soviet days.
It isn't really a matter of miltiary reform. The entire demographic situation in Russia is in trouble. Basically, Russia is facing an accelerated version of depopulation which most advanced countries are facing, and unless they accept Central Asians (oh the horrors! ), Russia can't really be a power any longer.

Makes sense for them to be afraid of the "Yellow Wave" in Siberia.
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Old 2010-12-19, 07:25   Link #10791
ganbaru
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Madoff insider’s estate to give back $7.2-billion
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1843354/
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Old 2010-12-19, 08:24   Link #10792
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Good grief, the only reason I posted that article was because of you Kamui.
You made a claim that No other nation has had an issue with allowing gays to serve openly in the military.
That statement is blatantly wrong.

The facts are what they are, don't go trying to put a spin on them because you don't like them.
That's not putting a spin, it's asking for more information about a blatantly sensationalist article, hence the "do you have anything to show it's widespread?" question. I also don't think it's unreasonable to point out that it likely has more to do with corruption and organized crime in Russia than allowing homosexuals to serve.

Quote:
For anyone who would like more information on this here's the BBC take on it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6356707.stm

The Guardian's story on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...ia.lukeharding
See, this is what I was asking for, now we have another, more reputable source pointing to problems outside Moscow.

Quote:
Hopefully the end of DADT will help create more transparency in the military with regard to alleged sexual abuses that have taken place over the years. (see: archived Florida Today article 2003)
Well, they won't have the "I might be labeled a homosexual and kicked out" reason, but all the other pressures to stay silent would still be there. Male on female rape in the military is often covered up, so I doubt male on male rape would be more likely to reported just because the victim won't feel he risks getting kicked out.
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Old 2010-12-19, 08:44   Link #10793
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Well, they won't have the "I might be labeled a homosexual and kicked out" reason, but all the other pressures to stay silent would still be there. Male on female rape in the military is often covered up, so I doubt male on male rape would be more likely to reported just because the victim won't feel he risks getting kicked out.
How does rape connect with publicly saying "I am a homosexual"? Being a victim makes you just that, a victim, not a homosexual. Also, I tend to think of sodomy as more of a sexual repression issue than DADT, since most sodomy are committed by non-homosexuals.
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Old 2010-12-19, 08:58   Link #10794
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
How does rape connect with publicly saying "I am a homosexual"? Being a victim makes you just that, a victim, not a homosexual. Also, I tend to think of sodomy as more of a sexual repression issue than DADT, since most sodomy are committed by non-homosexuals.
That's true, but often the perception is stronger than the reality in people's minds. Most of the former soldiers there were citing that as a reason they didn't report it. Neither the rapists nor victims in these cases are likely gay, but that won't stop the fear of being labeled as such on the part of the victim.
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Old 2010-12-19, 09:00   Link #10795
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
That's true, but often the perception is stronger than the reality in people's minds. Most of the former soldiers there were citing that as a reason they didn't report it. Neither the rapists nor victims in these cases are likely gay, but that won't stop the fear of being labeled as such on the part of the victim.
Interesting. Must be the cultural difference between Korea and US (without going into the boy scout that is the JSDF )
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Old 2010-12-19, 09:18   Link #10796
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I think this whole problem would go away if the military would adopt how starship trooper military handles things. Co-ed showers, bunks and tents.

problem solve.
How would that solve anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It isn't really a matter of miltiary reform. The entire demographic situation in Russia is in trouble. Basically, Russia is facing an accelerated version of depopulation which most advanced countries are facing, and unless they accept Central Asians (oh the horrors! ), Russia can't really be a power any longer.

Makes sense for them to be afraid of the "Yellow Wave" in Siberia.
This is also being accelerated by the high rate of alcohol related deaths. If the USA really wanted to deal with the USSR, we'd sell LOTS of cheap subsidized Vodka to them to kill their livers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Interesting. Must be the cultural difference between Korea and US (without going into the boy scout that is the JSDF )
What's wrong with the JSDF?

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Old 2010-12-19, 09:37   Link #10797
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
How would that solve anything?


This is also being accelerated by the high rate of alcohol related deaths. If the USA really wanted to deal with the USSR, we'd sell LOTS of cheap subsidized Vodka to them to kill their livers.


What's wrong with the JSDF?

Eh. No worse than this:

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Old 2010-12-19, 10:35   Link #10798
Roger Rambo
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Actually it IS worse. Seamanship has sissy homoerotic subtext. In the Navy has MANLY homoerotic subtext.

It's the difference between Gravitation and Fist of the North Star.
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Old 2010-12-19, 13:39   Link #10799
Azumanga Davo
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I fear the only way we shall see Lukashenko leaving the political stage is via a casket. Similar to "Turkmenbashi" (natural passing away) or Nicolae Ceaucescu (by trial and immediate shooting death by the opposition).
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Old 2010-12-19, 14:05   Link #10800
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
That's not putting a spin, it's asking for more information about a blatantly sensationalist article, hence the "do you have anything to show it's widespread?" question. I also don't think it's unreasonable to point out that it likely has more to do with corruption and organized crime in Russia than allowing homosexuals to serve.
Next time, please just admit that you were wrong.
It's not a big deal, so I don't understand why you didn't do the mature thing and amend what you said in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Well, they won't have the "I might be labeled a homosexual and kicked out" reason, but all the other pressures to stay silent would still be there. Male on female rape in the military is often covered up, so I doubt male on male rape would be more likely to reported just because the victim won't feel he risks getting kicked out.
No, but the US IG (inspector general) never needed DADT in the first place.
Bill Clinton pushed for it to protect gays in the military because of DOD Directive 1332.14 which banned gays period.
Whether intensional or not, this ban kept a tight lid on the abuses done to both hetero- and homosexuals in the US armed forces because of the fear of being ousted or court martialed due to sexuality (whether real or perceived).
The end of DADT really doesn't change much as far as military law is concerned.
So long as UCMJ 925 Article 125 exists in its current form, anyone engaging in anal-sex, "carnal sex" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), and beastiality, is subject to a court-martial.
Therefore, until the UCMJ is amended (and I believe it will be) the military still can court martial anyone engaging in sodomy.
Hopefully the end of DADT will change the meaning of sodomy to FORCED anal sex, so consenting homosexuals can live their personal lives in peace while actual criminals can be pursued and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ.
I sincerely hope that the end of DADT will spark an awakening of the myriad of problems that plague the US armed forces: everything from man-on-woman rape, same-sex rapes, prostitution problems, and pediophilic abuses.

There are a lot more actual problems in the social lives of US servicemen and women than people of the same sex who happen to be in love with each other.

As Roger Rambo pointed out, straight men can finally come out of the closet in the Navy.

Now I'm through with DADT.
It's repealed, and I'm very happy for the homosexual men and women in the service.
Nevetheless, let's move on please.

Moving on:
Here's something that proves no good deed shall go unpunished.

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2010/1...rom-icy-water/
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