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Old 2008-12-03, 18:07   Link #1101
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
If the Pakistan government is not involved with the Mumbai terrorist attacks, they should make themselves clear by following proper procedures:

1) Issue a diplomatic apology to India through the ambassy channels.
2) The Pakistan ambassador to India should apologize to the family of the victims and the survivors.
3) Declare an order to seek and arrest all the ones responsible for the Mumbai attacks nationwide in Pakistan.
if pakistan is innocent then 1 and 2 are irrevlent as they nothing to apologize for.

#3 is the only issue.
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Old 2008-12-03, 18:19   Link #1102
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
1) Issue a diplomatic apology to India through the ambassy channels.
2) The Pakistan ambassador to India should apologize to the family of the victims and the survivors.
3) Declare an order to seek and arrest all the ones responsible for the Mumbai attacks nationwide in Pakistan.
You forgot about a cooperation pakistan/india for the investigation/repression of the group.

And for 3, they could use scapegoat , if they are involved
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Old 2008-12-03, 18:28   Link #1103
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Shadow Minato, I demand an immediate apology from you to India for all those terrorist attacks. Only then will I believe you were not involved in said attacks.

And by the way, for the record, I must myself apologize for those attacks I didn't order, help, participate in, knew of beforehand or had anything to do with.
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Old 2008-12-03, 19:58   Link #1104
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Shadow Minato, I demand an immediate apology from you to India for all those terrorist attacks. Only then will I believe you were not involved in said attacks.

And by the way, for the record, I must myself apologize for those attacks I didn't order, help, participate in, knew of beforehand or had anything to do with.
I get your point. Even if Pakistan does issue an official apology to India, it wouldn't mean much, would it? I guess the relation between India and Pakistan has reach of a point of no return in terms of a possible military conflict soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
You forgot about a cooperation pakistan/india for the investigation/repression of the group.

And for 3, they could use scapegoat , if they are involved
You are right. They could use a scapegoat, but then.. What's the point of diplomacy then? Even if Pakistan does use a scapegoat, why not just accept it for a sake of war prevention? A little naive perhaps, since the chances of another similar attack may occur. Something must get done to prevent it in a way that a war does not break out and future occurrences will reduce to unlikely. I don't think this is possible either.

And regarding the cooperation between Pakistan and India's investigation group, I didn't know about it, since I haven't been following the situation lately.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:02   Link #1105
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
I get your point. Even if Pakistan does issue an official apology to India, it wouldn't mean much, would it? I guess the relation between India and Pakistan has reach of a point of no return in terms of a possible military conflict soon.
Remember, both nations have nuclear weapons.
Won't be surprised to see a lake forming out of nowhere, in between India and Pakistan.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:12   Link #1106
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Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya View Post
Remember, both nations have nuclear weapons.
Won't be surprised to see a lake forming out of nowhere, in between India and Pakistan.
if i were India and is involve in a war pakistan and i got intelligence that pakistan were going to use nukes. i would nuke them first. i rather deal with the consquence of being the 2nd nation in the history to used a Nuke then being know as the 2nd nation in history to be Nuke.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:13   Link #1107
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You are right. They could use a scapegoat, but then.. What's the point of diplomacy then?
Umm, there's no point, and that's the point. Words are fodder for the masses. The true powerplay always occurs in the background.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:18   Link #1108
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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On to another news article>

Bangkok Airport Resumes Operations

Extracts:

Quote:
Flights began to arrive at Suvarnabhumi on Wednesday for the first time in days, but airport authorities said the resumption of full operations would take longer. Don Muang, the domestic airport which had also been blocked, was to reopen Thursday.

The protesters decided to end the airport blockades and halt six months of daily street demonstrations on Tuesday.

The People’s Alliance for Democracy, the group that led the demonstrations, vowed to resume its street protests if “a proxy government of the Thaksin regime is set up again.”

“From now on, if there is any government which comes into power but is insincere in its efforts to launch new politics with the people, the P.A.D. will return,” the group said in a statement
.


Well, just keep this in mind. The PAD is made up of Bangkok's people, while the Thaksin parties are supported by the rural poor North. (Chiang Mai, etc

WTF.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:28   Link #1109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya View Post
On to another news article>

Bangkok Airport Resumes Operations

Extracts:

.


Well, just keep this in mind. The PAD is made up of Bangkok's people, while the Thaksin parties are supported by the rural poor North. (Chiang Mai, etc

WTF.
what it means is that if thier guy don't win the next election. they cry and whine again and again and again.

i think Thaskin's party will win again not with as many votes as last time but all they have to do replay the speeches by the pad about how stupid the rural people are and they won't even need to make any campaign promise to get their vote.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:41   Link #1110
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
what it means is that if thier guy don't win the next election. they cry and whine again and again and again.

i think Thaskin's party will win again not with as many votes as last time but all they have to do replay the speeches by the pad about how stupid the rural people are and they won't even need to make any campaign promise to get their vote.
Remember too, that Thaksin and Samak Sundaravej were popularly elected. There is no reason to boot anyone out, but since the PAD has a grudge against Thaksin, this will go on until the King steps in again, like in '92.

Thaksin had a focus on the North, thus drawing resources away from Bangkok, and the PAD got fed-up and claimed to represent the people, when they merely represented Bangkok.

Also, during Thaksin, there was much improvement in Thailand as a whole, so I think the PAD is just an empty vessel that is characteristically noisy.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:41   Link #1111
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Ya know.. it may only be rogue elements within the Pakistan government that supported the attack. The government is not monolithic.

(says the American who knows quite well that his own government has its own share of rogue elements that ignore public policy)
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:45   Link #1112
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Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya View Post
Remember too, that Thaksin and Samak Sundaravej were popularly elected. There is no reason to boot anyone out, but since the PAD has a grudge against Thaksin, this will go on until the King steps in again, like in '92.

Thaksin had a focus on the North, thus drawing resources away from Bangkok, and the PAD got fed-up and claimed to represent the people, when they merely represented Bangkok.

Also, during Thaksin, there was much improvement in Thailand as a whole, so I think the PAD is just an empty vessel that is characteristically noisy.
i think when Thaskin's party win next time around. They should just go ahead and move the capital to another city, built another airport there and let bangkok rot.

Quote:
Ya know.. it may only be rogue elements within the Pakistan government that supported the attack. The government is not monolithic.

(says the American who knows quite well that his own government has its own share of rogue elements that ignore public policy)
but if India can prove who was behind it and the people behind it are living in Pakistan then Pakistan need to hand those people over. India shouldn't push things with pakistan uncessarily but they can't appear soft either or there will be more attacks.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:53   Link #1113
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think when Thaskin's party win next time around. They should just go ahead and move the capital to another city, built another airport there and let bangkok rot.
Thailand doesn't have that much money. After almosy years of PAD protests, the repairs on Bangkok are huge... and even if they did, it's too much for the Thai government to move everything out of Bangkok.

Japan is trying to move some administrative functions to Tama, which is the side of Tokyo that ISN'T the Tokyo people usually see (in other words, West Tokyo), but so far, it's not exactly very successful.

Still, Malaysia did succeed in moving the administrative capital out of KL to Putrajaya.

If there's anywhere that the capital can go to, I guess it'd be Chiang Mai, the capital city of North Thailand.
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Old 2008-12-03, 20:55   Link #1114
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Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya View Post
Thailand doesn't have that much money. After almosy years of PAD protests, the repairs on Bangkok are huge... and even if they did, it's too much for the Thai government to move everything out of Bangkok.

Japan is trying to move some administrative functions to Tama, which is the side of Tokyo that ISN'T the Tokyo people usually see (in other words, West Tokyo), but so far, it's not exactly very successful.

Still, Malaysia did succeed in moving the administrative capital out of KL to Putrajaya.

If there's anywhere that the capital can go to, I guess it'd be Chiang Mai, the capital city of North Thailand.
the government can ask Thaskin for a loan
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Old 2008-12-03, 21:00   Link #1115
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the government can ask Thaskin for a loan
His accounts are frozen, remember?
Wait, if it's the government, then, yes, they can unfreeze his accounts. But still, to rebuild a capital half a day away from Bangkok will be a BIG headache.

But the plus points are that Chiang Mai has a modern airport, better than Don Muang and of course, U-Tapao. The city is also modern, with some huge shopping malls nearer the airport, and the city's name is good too - "New City", literally.

However, unlike Bangkok, which has the Bangkok Metro and Bangkok Skytrain, Chiang Mai does not have rapid transit public transport infrastructure. Another cost burden.
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Old 2008-12-03, 21:42   Link #1116
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think when Thaskin's party win next time around. They should just go ahead and move the capital to another city, built another airport there and let bangkok rot.
You let Bangkok rot, you let Thailand rot. It's the single biggest metropolis in the country by far, the sole economic center, an international financial center of some note (though not as prominent as, say, Singapore), a historic capital, a cultural center, the educational center, roughly at the geographic center, and the biggest tourist spot. In short, it's the epicenter of Thailand.

The city may or may not have decayed. But it wasn't very clean and nice and pretty to begin with. It's an archetypal developing country's metropolis kind of place -- huge, overcrowded, polluted, with the very rich and very poor, and immensely interesting.

Or may be I'm just biased. Admittedly, much of Thailand's economy depends on the agricultural sector -- the rural area -- but if you remove Bangkok from the focus, you remove any chance for the country to move from being just a breadbasket to anything resembling a developing country (assumption = towards a more diverse economy).

I definitely don't think a copy of the Burmese move is a good idea. Oh, sorry, Myanmar. Hah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
Also, during Thaksin, there was much improvement in Thailand as a whole, so I think the PAD is just an empty vessel that is characteristically noisy.
The development came at a price of looting the treasury and monopolizing otherwise growing business sectors. Like so many times in history, it could be argued that the government does not cause the (post-Asian economic crisis) prosperity/recovery as it is benefiting from it, perhaps even hindering it for its own agenda.

Mind, I don't have a high opinion of the PAD either. It's one thing to present their views in the public, it's another to cause repeated instability for cheap political gains. Of course, it's a country where Fareed Zakaria would no doubt call an "illiberal democracy," so it's not like the PAD is breaking new grounds in self-interested politics. If anything, I see the interventions of the military as a far worse setback for liberal democracy in Thailand than anything the PAD really did.

Moreover, Chiang Mai as a new administrative capital? Are you really serious? It's the center for Northern Thailand, but note the keyword: Northern Thailand. Place it as the administrative capital, and you risk even more of the country being marginalized, or worse, further aggravating the already troubled South. That, and it's a mountainous region and an established city, an architectural nightmare for this sort of prestige/administrative city planning. If the Government of Thailand really wants to pull a Rio de Janeiro-to-Brazilia move, it is far better served by staying on the Central Plains. There's a historical precedent with such a move in King Narai's Lopburi, although anywhere would do. A return to Ayutthaya? Ha! Or Thaksin and his suppoters could just expand the Suvarnabhumi project.
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Old 2008-12-03, 21:56   Link #1117
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
You let Bangkok rot, you let Thailand rot. It's the single biggest metropolis in the country by far, the sole economic center, an international financial center of some note (though not as prominent as, say, Singapore), a historic capital, a cultural center, the educational center, roughly at the geographic center, and the biggest tourist spot. In short, it's the epicenter of Thailand.
Hmm, that's true. But it's also the riot center, as long as PAD is around.

Quote:
The city may or may not have decayed. But it wasn't very clean and nice and pretty to begin with. It's an archetypal developing country's metropolis kind of place -- huge, overcrowded, polluted, with the very rich and very poor, and immensely interesting.
While I agree that the chaotic Bangkok is its charm, the wide gap between rich and poor is one of the reason the PAD is up and going. The PAD uses the poor of Bangkok to fight Thaksin and follow their will, while saying the poor in the North are being cheated by Thaksin's people. A pot calling the kettle black, IMO.

Quote:
Or may be I'm just biased. Admittedly, much of Thailand's economy depends on the agricultural sector -- the rural area -- but if you remove Bangkok from the focus, you remove any chance for the country to move from being just a breadbasket to anything resembling a developing country (assumption = towards a more diverse economy).
Not really, if the new government unfreezes Thaksin's assets and allows him to return, I'm pretty sure some amazing things can happen.

Quote:
The development came at a price of looting the treasury and monopolizing otherwise growing business sectors. Like so many times in history, it could be argued that the government does not cause the (post-Asian economic crisis) prosperity/recovery as it is benefiting from it, perhaps even hindering it for its own agenda.
Where did you get that from? The PAD?

Quote:
Moreover, Chiang Mai as a new administrative capital? Are you really serious? It's the center for Northern Thailand, but note the keyword: Northern Thailand. Place it as the administrative capital, and you risk even more of the country being marginalized, or worse, further aggravating the already troubled South.
Well, if Thaksin had his way, I think he would choose somewhere far enough from mess, like Bangkok and further south. In fact, I am one of those who feel that Malaysia should have some say in South Thailand, since the chaos could spread to Malaysia, if though Anwar wasn't bad enough already.

Quote:
That, and it's a mountainous region and an established city, an architectural nightmare for this sort of prestige/administrative city planning.
Isn't that a good thing?

Quote:
If the Government of Thailand really wants to pull a Rio de Janeiro-to-Brazilia move, it is far better served by staying on the Central Plains. There's a historical precedent with such a move in King Narai's Lopburi, although anywhere would do. A return to Ayutthaya? Ha! Or Thaksin and his suppoters could just expand the Suvarnabhumi project.
Well, I only said to move ADMINISTRATIVE matters to Chiang Mai. Not 'transplant' the whole Bangkok there. I mean, Malaysia did it, so why can't the Thais?

Or better still, have an administrative capital for each region (North, Central, South), such that the government can move towards them if needed.
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Old 2008-12-03, 22:08   Link #1118
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Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya View Post
Hmm, that's true. But it's also the riot center, as long as PAD is around.
It's a passing thing.

Rome, on the other hand, wasn't built in a day. Neither was Bangkok. You can't possibly argue that permanently marginalizing the country's epicenter just to get away from temporary instability is a good idea.

Quote:
While I agree that the chaotic Bangkok is its charm, the wide gap between rich and poor is one of the reason the PAD is up and going. The PAD uses the poor of Bangkok to fight Thaksin and follow their will, while saying the poor in the North are being cheated by Thaksin's people. A pot calling the kettle black, IMO.
I'm not arguing the PAD's case, so we really have no argument here.

Quote:
Not really, if the new government unfreezes Thaksin's assets and allows him to return, I'm pretty sure some amazing things can happen.
Yes, amazing like a Ferdinand Marcos.

The mounting opposition to Thaksin came before the PAD rises, remember. And I kind of witnessed a thing or two on it myself. An anecdote: the post-Asian economic crisis recovery boom produced three major phone companies in the Bangkok area market, two established and one rapidly growing. In a few years, Thaksin's company monopolized the market. Guess what happened to the service quality after that?

You know it.

Now multiply that to a whole slew of other industries. Short-term, makes industrial policy runs like a charm. The price? Long-term hellhole, and a country dependent on a single conglomerate.

Quote:
Where did you get that from? The PAD?
Of course not. My opinion was formalized long before I even heard of such a movement. Where did you get your opinion of Mr. Thaksin from?

Quote:
Well, if Thaksin had his way, I think he would choose somewhere far enough from mess, like Bangkok and further south. In fact, I am one of those who feel that Malaysia should have some say in South Thailand, since the chaos could spread to Malaysia, if though Anwar wasn't bad enough already.
Oh, of course, and watch things get worse. The South is already troubled enough as it is.

Quote:
Isn't that a good thing?
Bad. Less space, older infrastructure, lots of local issues. You want a prestige city or a new, nice and clean administrative center? You build it in the middle of nowhere where there's lot of flat open space. Lesson taught since Versailles, repeated in D.C., furthered in Brasilia, and so on and so forth.

Quote:
Well, I only said to move ADMINISTRATIVE matters to Chiang Mai. Not 'transplant' the whole Bangkok there. I mean, Malaysia did it, so why can't the Thais?
Why should the Thais?

Quote:
Or better still, have an administrative capital for each region (North, Central, South), such that the government can move towards them if needed.
So your argument is for a federal system for Thailand? Hm. I honestly don't know the merits vs. the problems of that, although one argument I can already see against that is that Thailand has only one mega urban center, so the development of federalization will be a lot harder on everyone.
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Old 2008-12-03, 22:15   Link #1119
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Yes it would have, no league of nations for sure, perhaps harsher sanctions on Germany, possible continuing bloody stalemate further saping the resources of Britain, France, and Germany.
Germany would have won and thus, no Hitler or the USSR for us. For the latter, well, Europe had its proud history of warfare, why bother? The founders didn't want anything to do with Europe because they knew this.

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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
You point was that Wilson ordered US merchant ships in harms way deliberatly. However, Germany could have quite easily avoided attacking US ships, and in fact did take great measures in doing so from 1915 to 1917, only pressure on the Kaiser to resume unrestricted submarine warfare by Germany's top navel commanders reversed that.
And when US ships were accompanied by British ships and vice versa, what would the German captains do? Smile and say "Hi"? Of course, German generals must protest that. It was outright ridiculous.

The presence of those ships for whatever reasons and from whatever country were not justified. And why Woodrow did not warn his fellow countrymen about the possible danger? In fact, he insisted that they had very right to do so. If you don't call that a deliberate provocation, I don't know what it is.

Quote:
No, torpedos can sink an unarmored merchant ship just fine whether it's carrying weapons or not. I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. One of the problems you seem to be forgetting is Germany sank passanger liners, not just pure cargo ships.
It would sink however there would be enough time for everyone to escape, unless the vessel carried something stupid. Maybe I didn't make myself clear on that. That was, imo, very humane considering those morons who traveled on those ship. And the one liner (I forgot the name, but whatever it deserved it) that gave the German bad name in fact did carry weapons.

And again? WTH were liners doing in those water? If you don't call it a provocation, I don't know what it is.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll
first, this does not disprove my statement that successful invasion and longterm control of a very large territory like the Russian empire/USSR is, in fact, possible, and has been done.
You must look into the nature of Mogolian occupation to see why it took so long for Russia to be independent. In fact, they did more good than harm, I can say mostly good not only to Russia but to the world as a whole. To put it rudely, the Mogolian didn't control jack. Moreover, they didn't use the right strategy (fighting head-on with the Golden Hordes = auto lose).

For the Nazi, however, it would be a different story.

Quote:
and second, while I am pretty much a novice in that theatre of conflict, according to the wiki, those Vietnamese ended up paying tribute to the Mongols nevertheless, fearing further invasion.
Aye, Don't jump into conclusion too hastily. Let me just say that the annual tribute did not matter one bit. It was just a common practice in that area (well, any area with a strong Chinese presence), and it had very good reasons.

Quote:
well, large-scale conflicts between large nations, where millions of people, heavy weaponry and thousands of aircraft are involved (e.g. heaviest bombing in history in Vietnam) and which last for years - thats what is commonly called by the word "war". whether there is an actual war declaration or not, is of minor importance since, bluntly put, it doesnt mean jack.
It meant that some faction in the US somehow could stand above the law, and THAT is very troublesome. I believed few American knew that the nation MUST declare war before engage in one. Sigh.... oh well.
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Old 2008-12-03, 22:16   Link #1120
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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^^(Irenicus) OK I understand your points, but I'm going to have to directly go into some points.

Quote:
Quote:
Well, if Thaksin had his way, I think he would choose somewhere far enough from mess, like Bangkok and further south. In fact, I am one of those who feel that Malaysia should have some say in South Thailand, since the chaos could spread to Malaysia, if though Anwar wasn't bad enough already.
Oh, of course, and watch things get worse. The South is already troubled enough as it is.
That's why Malaysia needs to step in.

Quote:
Or better still, have an administrative capital for each region (North, Central, South), such that the government can move towards them if needed.
Quote:
So your argument is for a federal system for Thailand? Hm. I honestly don't know the merits vs. the problems of that, although one argument I can already see against that is that Thailand has only one mega urban center, so the development of federalization will be a lot harder on everyone.
Federalization is pretty much better than the current status quo.
In Germany, the largest religion is Lutheran Christianity. But one state, Bavaria, is Roman Catholic. It gets to keep that simply because it is a state that can control its own internal affairs.

And the monarchy will still remain stable, like we see in UK, Australia and Canada. Therefore, I think it's OK.

The other points, I feel you have good points, so I'm not touching them, unless I change my mind about your statements.
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