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Old 2011-02-05, 02:52   Link #11841
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsubishiZero View Post
I increasingly think that socialism is not that bad at all. After all, it is working relatively well in China. I believe if a national leader can be chosen on the basis that all he does is for the interest of the nation, he should be allowed the run the nation. Of course, there should be a set of clear cut and well exercised laws and constitution to keep the leader under control, and the people should be allowed some degree of participation in top level official decisions. China's current system is not perfect, but I believe with a bit of tweak it can propel China to a even higher level.
the problem is that our skill at artificial intelligence and Animatronics aren't advance enough to the point where such a leader can be created without problems rising.
you don't want your leader falling into the Uncanny valley, or having his head explode when presented with a logic paradox.

not that it really matters if we could solve the technical problems, since anyone seeing such a "leader" for one minute would have no problem spotting that its not human.
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:02   Link #11842
solomon
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Originally as an american black man I bristled at the general gist of Cameron's speech. It too often drummed up images of BNP/Front National type drivel.

Vexx's comments made me re think it a little....

While I don't like the unilateral sounding title (a bit too similar to BNP type rightist loonies type of rhet.), I do admit that there has to be a certain level assimilation required in order to for a society to rationally function. Otherwise tribal warfare ensues.

History has shown that united, people are stronger than if they are fractured.


I am a Black American albiet a somewhat "white" Black American as is the parlance, but despite skepticsm and certain cynicism I still broadly believe in the main values that America is and should be.

I think the key word he pointed out was "Islamic extremism is not Islam". This is a point that I wish the media, politicans and people of Islamic faith would more strongly push, even if they have misgivings about American foreign policy. After all, I would expect the same scrutiny of the more established Christian religion and majorities.

No matter what religion, theocracy and discrimination and wonton violence and human rights suppression should not be tolerated in modern secular democracies.



THAT BEING SAID...

The devil of course in in the details.........I think multiculturalism is the wrong word and establishes bad pretexts
(especially in the UK and America, different cultures exist between those in Ulster, the Black Country and Cardiff, for example)

It's all about the nuance and context.

Check this observation on contemporary anti-muslim sentiment by Baroness Warsi, a Conservative Party Muslim.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12235237

Also a smattering of British Muslim opinons and European opinions follow as links on the side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitsubishiZero View Post
Long live the Middle Kingdom!!!wwww


I increasingly think that socialism is not that bad at all. After all, it is working relatively well in China. I believe if a national leader can be chosen on the basis that all he does is for the interest of the nation, he should be allowed the run the nation. Of course, there should be a set of clear cut and well exercised laws and constitution to keep the leader under control, and the people should be allowed some degree of participation in top level official decisions. China's current system is not perfect, but I believe with a bit of tweak it can propel China to a even higher level.

Just opinion~

Interesting viewpoint, but the reason China is doing so well is due in substantial part due free market reformation, emulating Western Democracies.

I support social welfare programs and certain economic restrictions but by and large the free world and China is making wealth thanks to Private enterprise in many instances.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-02-06 at 18:38.
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:13   Link #11843
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Interesting viewpoint, but the reason China is doing so well is due in substantial part due free market reformation, emulating Western Democracies.

I support social welfare programs and certain economic restrictions but by and large the free world and China is making wealth thanks to Private enterprise in many instances.
It is mixed market. Their "private" enterprises often have lots of "government" investors, if you get what I mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
Easily fixed, with more centralisation in most provinces except Guangzhou and Fujian (will get to that later.)

Most of the atrocities seen in China are carried out by local level officials, who are trying to get their way up to the top of the provincial CCP branch. As Beijing does not officially interfere with local governance, the local party officials do everything to look like nothing's wrong, instead of fixing the problem (which would probably have cost less anyway) In other words, too much decentralisation has gone on, and Beijing should get a hold on the local government. EXCEPT for the two provinces listed above.

These two have shown that they're much more capable of handling their own affairs as compared to the rest of the provinces, and probably should be rewarded with devolution.
I wonder how "easy" will that become.

The problem with China is that due to the decentralisation, almost every state wants to be a mini-Shanghai of its own, and is mass building skyscrapers and buildings and whatnot with little or no care of HOW they are going to get tenants after their completion.

It indebts the state, and overall as a country with a very low-pegged currency, I wonder how each state is going to pay off the debt, and HOW CCP is going to fund their treasuries to upkeep those buildings. It's going to crash the cost of cyclicals and equities on the market.
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:31   Link #11844
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Nice things happen in the middle east too, (even if they're only necessary because of all the violence).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-protests.html
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:37   Link #11845
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I wonder how "easy" will that become.

The problem with China is that due to the decentralisation, almost every state wants to be a mini-Shanghai of its own, and is mass building skyscrapers and buildings and whatnot with little or no care of HOW they are going to get tenants after their completion.

It indebts the state, and overall as a country with a very low-pegged currency, I wonder how each state is going to pay off the debt, and HOW CCP is going to fund their treasuries to upkeep those buildings. It's going to crash the cost of cyclicals and equities on the market.
Well, as the world's largest creditor...
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:38   Link #11846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
hmmm some interesting stuff that came out of Friday's mass

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/iran...world-1.756994

LOL... pretty sure the protestors in Egypt and Tunisia have more in common with the people who protested against Ahmadinejad in 2009 than with most Islamists. Last I heard Egyptian Islamist groups were still have trouble deciding quite what to make of what was going on.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This PM nails it on the head in regard to what it means to live in a country and be a citizen of it. Great article...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994
Well, I agree that basic human rights trump cultural considerations, but I must say that Mr. Cameron's understanding of multiculturalism is rather different from mine.

Canada was the first country to implement an official policy of multiculturalism in 1971. It's basically a way of recognizing that the previous policy of official biculturalism (English Canada and French Canada) failed to recognize the contribution of smaller ethnic groups. It has nothing to do with letting ethnic traditions trump basic rights.

Canadians wouldn't stand for having a policy of official monoculture - it would stoke rhetoric among separatist movements about how English Canadians are trying to assimilate French Canadians, and nobody is keen on seeing that come back into vogue because at times it has come close to tearing this country in two. In that respect, biculturalism and multiculturalism enhance Canadian unity.
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:45   Link #11847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
It is mixed market. Their "private" enterprises often have lots of "government" investors, if you get what I mean.

Wow good point, I had thought my use of the private enterprise was rather weak, But it's not died in the wool socialism is what I wanted to point out.


Also I just want to say how great it is to have a forum where you can discuss topics on a wide variety of issues with a wide variety of opinions that don't degenerate into flame wars.
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:48   Link #11848
Ithekro
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People have suggested the lack of assimulation of legal and illegal aliens into the United States is a problem that should have been solved already. A hundred or more years ago that wouldn't have been considered a problem as much since it is usually shown in at least the popular history text that it was encouraged by the families that moved to the United States to adapt to American life and English as a language for those coming from all over Europe. To a much lesser extent those from Asia, but that was mainly due to heavy restrictions of the numbers of Chinese and Japanese that could enter the country legally. There were some laws like that for Europeans but not a many (and certainly not for Latin American that I can recall).

Things have changed. People come over carrying their culture with them and keeping it. Many still at least learn English to communicate, but their cultural mindset tends to stay in place rather than changing to a more Western lifestyle. And in the case of the illegals...some don't even bother with learning English from what I can tell. Especially in California, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Legals and Illegals, from primarily Mexico, but other places as well, seem to form nice large communities where Spanish is the primary language. That might be all well and good, but there are conflicts...especially in the larger cities. My father racalls Oakland and Richmond, California being white with some blacks in the early to mid-50s. By the 70s some parts were almost all black in both cities. Now several of those black regions are Latino. I don't know why one group would move out or get pushed out for sure...but something happened. Aside from that these areas tend to be the lower end residential areas. Maybe what had been the poorer black community scaled up to middle class and moved to the suburban areas like the white population had done in the 40s and 50s, with the conservative whites moving out of the state believing the state government to be too liberal for their tastes.

It gets to be a mess and creates sort of self made segrigated communities. (Well not not quite segrigated, but more geographical specific areas where one group clusters over another group that might cluster instead in an area only a few blocks away. Rather than a mandated, "you must live here" type thing.)
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Old 2011-02-05, 03:57   Link #11849
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Wow good point, I had thought my use of the private enterprise was rather weak, But it's not died in the wool socialism is what I wanted to point out.
I am not sure if that is considered socialism, but I believe the form of governance is known as autocracy.

Then again, a mixed market is balancing control of free enterprises with state-owned businesses. The former is the cash cow, while the latter is the strategic control of world trade and investment image. Problem is that in China the opposite happens, where free enterprises tend to be more ethical as compared to SOBs due to differing pay-grades as the basic issue.

This entire concept throws conventional macroeconomics out of the window.

Quote:
Also I just want to say how great it is to have a forum where you can discuss topics on a wide variety of issues with a wide variety of opinions that don't degenerate into flame wars.
Unless it is Palin-vs-Obama, or Angie-vs-rest of Europe.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
Well, as the world's largest creditor...
Let's relate to Lehman Brothers at a smaller scale. How are you going to get your debtees to pay back when they have no money too?

It tried to imitate Singapore but it's fail in the making because they forget to consider that China is WAY TOO BIG. You can't micro much in China, neither can you macro efficiently when all the state level officials are only concerned about their monthly incomes.

It needs to do something about its internal politics and ethical issues....even the rural people are scoffing at their Green Dam and river crabs. But then again, too much control isn't good because corruption is like a disease, you bring it in under you, it spreads to you.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-02-05, 04:07   Link #11850
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post



Unless it is Palin-vs-Obama, or Angie-vs-rest of Europe.
Who's Angie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Let's relate to Lehman Brothers at a smaller scale. How are you going to get your debtees to pay back when they have no money too?
Bankrupt 'em. Or just conquer 'em.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
It tried to imitate Singapore but it's fail in the making because they forget to consider that China is WAY TOO BIG. You can't micro much in China, neither can you macro efficiently when all the state level officials are only concerned about their monthly incomes.
Singapore is a city.
China is a landmass in every sense of the word.
It is the CITIES of China which should copy Singapore.
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Old 2011-02-05, 04:20   Link #11851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
Who's Angie?
Angela Merkel.

Quote:
Bankrupt 'em. Or just conquer 'em.
It doesn't work like corporations. If you bankrupt a country through the IMF, the country is reduced to a third-world nation, and effectively, it detracts investors and stops them from paying back the debt.

On a global scale, it isn't a good thing. If China bankrupts US we would see a decade of economic unrest or global trade control by China.

Quote:
Singapore is a city.
China is a landmass in every sense of the word.
It is the CITIES of China which should copy Singapore.
Tell that to the state officials. Singapore took 20 years to become a third-world to the first, and they made many financial losses along the way. Any moment of losing money will not be received by the state officials.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-02-05, 04:21   Link #11852
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart
Unless it is Palin-vs-Obama, or Angie-vs-rest of Europe.
Oh, but you see. The reason people like Obama is because he isn't going to shout back very hard, but would try to play nice and bring her over instead. The sad thing about it is that it means Palin and her ilk gets to shout louder.

Story of America, 2008-today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
Singapore is a city.
China is a landmass in every sense of the word.
It is the CITIES of China which should copy Singapore.
I think Saintess's point is that not every Chinese city could, or should, become Singapore. It would become a bubble waiting to burst if they try, is what he thinks.
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Old 2011-02-05, 09:36   Link #11853
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You thought that the US and Japan were the only countries with right-wing loons?
Think again...

Clashes at English Defence League march in Luton
Far right activists have clashed with anti-fascist demonstrators at a rally by the English Defence League.


Quote:
Thousands of supporters from the English Defence League gathered in Luton on Saturday for the rally.

Campaigners from Unite Against Fascism are also planning to conduct a demonstration in the town and more than 1500 police are on duty to police the event.

Confrontations flared as early as 10am, however, as supporters of the English Defence League arrived at the train station in Luton and were confronted by dozens of protesters from Unite Against Fascism who attempted to block their exit.

Both sides hurled insults as tensions rose and the English Defence League supporters had to be escorted through a back exit by police.
Up to 7,000 EDL supporters are expected to gather in Luton St George's Square on Saturday.

The rally is expected to be the biggest in the EDL's 20-month history. The group was originally formed in Luton in 2009 and has staged more than 30 protests since.

UAF demonstrators are holding a counter-demonstration in Park Square.
Bedfordshire Police has drafted in officers from as far away as Devon and Cornwall to help police the event which is thought to be costing up to £800,000.

Hazel Simmons, the leader of Luton Borough Council, had called on the town to go about normal business. However many shops have been closed and roads shut.
The EDL protesters have travelled from around the country carrying flags and banners including posters announcing that Islam is evil. They were also joined by far right activists from Europe.

The protesters, many of whom where drinking, chanted anti-Muslim slogans.
Among the EDL protesters was Rabbi Nachum Shifrem from Los Angeles who was due to speak at the group's rally.

He said: “I am proud to be part of the EDL. I believe that the EDL is the leading element of change in Europe. They stand up for a strong Britain. They say what others will not say. I believe they are courageous in standing up to Islam.”
It's the KKK, but English...
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Old 2011-02-05, 10:31   Link #11854
ganbaru
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Protest over killing sparks fear of unrest in Indian Kashmir
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...71411820110205
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Old 2011-02-05, 12:59   Link #11855
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'We need to be a lot less tolerant towards Islamic extremists': Cameron calls for immigrants to respect British core values

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1D6mcgia2

Mystery of the mummy's Chinese travel ban....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...n-2205033.html
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Old 2011-02-05, 13:18   Link #11856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Well, I agree that basic human rights trump cultural considerations, but I must say that Mr. Cameron's understanding of multiculturalism is rather different from mine.

Canada was the first country to implement an official policy of multiculturalism in 1971. It's basically a way of recognizing that the previous policy of official biculturalism (English Canada and French Canada) failed to recognize the contribution of smaller ethnic groups. It has nothing to do with letting ethnic traditions trump basic rights.

Canadians wouldn't stand for having a policy of official monoculture - it would stoke rhetoric among separatist movements about how English Canadians are trying to assimilate French Canadians, and nobody is keen on seeing that come back into vogue because at times it has come close to tearing this country in two. In that respect, biculturalism and multiculturalism enhance Canadian unity.
I'll be the first to advocate for multiculturalism in terms of people enjoying and celebrating their personal heritage. However, as a consensus for living in a city-state entity, fundamental concerns for individual rights are not trumped by someone's reading of "ancient texts" or their abusive exercise of particular customs. Hence, stoning or being whipped to death for getting raped (the oft quoted example) does not fly, nor does the beating of a Harry Potter actress because she's dating someone who was raised with a different set of ancient texts.

I love multi-culturalism ... it provides color and diversity in my world. Festivals, food, a broader sense of views, healthier gene pool, etc. I'm Heinz 57 Euro, I married a Japanese-American, one of my sons is dating a Nepalese Bengali... none of us should have to worry about jerkwads blowing us up or beating us to death for those choices.

Last edited by Vexx; 2011-02-05 at 15:48.
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Old 2011-02-05, 13:59   Link #11857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'll be the first to advocate for multiculturalism in terms of people enjoying and celebrating their personal heritage. However, as a consensus for living in a city-state entity, fundamental concerns for individual rights are not trumped by someone's reading of "ancient texts" or their abusive exercise of particular customs. Hence, stoning for getting raped (the oft quoted example) does not fly, nor does the beating of a Harry Potter actress because she's dating someone who was raised with a different set of ancient texts.

I love multi-culturalism ... it provides color and diversity in my world. Festivals, food, a broader sense of views, healthier gene pool, etc. I'm Heinz 57 Euro, I married a Japanese-American, one of my sons is dating a Nepalese Bengali... none of us should have to worry about jerkwads blowing us up or beating us to death for those choices.
I second that. I come from an ubiquitous background and I am told that I am supposedly mixed-blood between many races. Though many of my classmates and acquaintances often tease each other with racial remarks, we don't feel any dislike towards each other, and simply took it as a joke. Once during my army days outfield, we teased an Indian squadmate of mine that he wouldn't need black camouflage paint and he simply needed green. He then applied green paint to his face and said that "you urine coloured nuts are wasting precious warpaint". All of us then laughed it off and it became a regular joke (even over the comms, the commanders didn't know we are planning bunk parties with that code signal ) until all of us went separate ways after the training. Every unit I went, there is this touch of treating such cannonballs as miniature ball-bearings when it comes down to this at the squad levels (we don't dare to do it above that because the commanders are so touchy). In fact, it became a joke that ALL of us always laugh to and NEVER gets old. Yet we never held grudges because we knew that deep down, there is real ingrained respect for each others' ethnicities.

How do we understand each other like that and able to naturally sense that the other party wasn't serious? Well, we grew up with each of our kind and simply showed tolerance and had to force ourselves to understand and work with each other despite our racial and religious differences. As the locals get increasingly selfish, and new immigrants become racist towards a 40-year rojak culture due to their increased presence, this is simply going to go down the drain in the few years time.

"River crabs" don't just flow down the stream by themselves, they are lured and consolidated over time and understanding of them. If we don't dispel that climate of fear of each other, the ISA isn't going to repeal itself in the next century or so.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2011-02-05 at 14:24.
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Old 2011-02-05, 17:03   Link #11858
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This looked interesting, thought I'd share it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...-000-suns.html

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Old 2011-02-05, 17:07   Link #11859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'll be the first to advocate for multiculturalism in terms of people enjoying and celebrating their personal heritage. However, as a consensus for living in a city-state entity, fundamental concerns for individual rights are not trumped by someone's reading of "ancient texts" or their abusive exercise of particular customs. Hence, stoning or being whipped to death for getting raped (the oft quoted example) does not fly, nor does the beating of a Harry Potter actress because she's dating someone who was raised with a different set of ancient texts.

I love multi-culturalism ... it provides color and diversity in my world. Festivals, food, a broader sense of views, healthier gene pool, etc. I'm Heinz 57 Euro, I married a Japanese-American, one of my sons is dating a Nepalese Bengali... none of us should have to worry about jerkwads blowing us up or beating us to death for those choices.
An interesting point. Christian crosses in public schools in France are banned, as are any other religious items. The Burqa was also banned unilaterally fairly recently. One could argue that you're repressing these peoples, or you could argue that the separation between State and Church is absolute in France, and that the State wants to be an identifiable entity for a broader community. What do you think of that?

There's always going to be excitable people, but France has mixed in with immigrants a lot. At least they have a proper word for mixed-blooded people. Half-cast sounds derogatory to me.

Quote:
'Métis'
The verb "métisser" theoretically means to mix blood or to crossbreed, but at times it is used more loosely to mean mix cultures. 'Métis' would be the adjective.
And at least it's not insulting to hear to me, but maybe that's just me. I mean, really, if you don't even have a word for this increasingly common phenomenon, how do you expect these people to look themselves in the eye when they're growing up. (School is usually merciless to us mixed people)
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Old 2011-02-05, 17:19   Link #11860
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I seem to recall a slight conflict between national and religious holidays once in the United States. Not the ones you'd normally be thinking about though. In this case the conflict was one sided I suppose and not hostile, just depressing. One year in High School we had a sort of potluck for just before Thanksgiving I believe. However the few Muslims could not take part as Ramadan had just started. I guess that is just a matter of one system using a Solar based calender and the other culture using a Lunar based one.
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