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Old 2011-03-30, 20:05   Link #12821
Ithekro
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I would point out that the United States use to be the supplier of oil to the world. I imagine that we have decided to hold on to what we have, drain everyone else else, and thn make back the money we spent (on the national level...the person at the pump is still screwed) by selling oil to those we see as allies.

At which point we will probably cut the Middle East loose since they will have nothing of economic value to us anymore.

Hmmm. I fear for Israel on that day. Though on the other hand, if the United States has no use for any of the former oil producing countries, they might help Israel just take them all down if things go hostile. Or they'll just sit back and watch since helping Israel will gain them nothing just like helping the Arabs would give them nothing.
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Old 2011-03-30, 20:27   Link #12822
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I would point out that the United States use to be the supplier of oil to the world. I imagine that we have decided to hold on to what we have, drain everyone else else, and thn make back the money we spent (on the national level...the person at the pump is still screwed) by selling oil to those we see as allies.

At which point we will probably cut the Middle East loose since they will have nothing of economic value to us anymore.

Hmmm. I fear for Israel on that day. Though on the other hand, if the United States has no use for any of the former oil producing countries, they might help Israel just take them all down if things go hostile. Or they'll just sit back and watch since helping Israel will gain them nothing just like helping the Arabs would give them nothing.
I'm inclined to agree.
The Bakken basin formation may hold a considerable amount of oil (4.3 billion barrels is the current estimate, but USGS says that number may go as high as 20 billion).
Granted, that's nothing compared to Saudi Arabia's 260 billion barrel deposit, but still, add that to ANWR, and the coastal oil deposits and the US has enough oil to do precisely what you've alluded to.

Peronally I'd like to see us use our oil as a stop-gap measure while we develop hydrogen fuel.
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Old 2011-03-30, 20:39   Link #12823
Decagon
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
It isn't just about gasoline cars. Crude oil has many functions, it is also used to make plastic figurines, lay roads, etc.
I always wonder why these uses get left out of the debate so often. Future alternatives for various distillations of oil exist in derivations from plant oils and emerging research in increasing yields of particular compounds in certain crops (rubber trees, for example), but a transition to these alternatives will probably mark another increase in food prices.
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Old 2011-03-31, 00:03   Link #12824
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Old 2011-03-31, 00:27   Link #12825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I would point out that the United States use to be the supplier of oil to the world. I imagine that we have decided to hold on to what we have, drain everyone else else, and thn make back the money we spent (on the national level...the person at the pump is still screwed) by selling oil to those we see as allies.

At which point we will probably cut the Middle East loose since they will have nothing of economic value to us anymore.

Hmmm. I fear for Israel on that day. Though on the other hand, if the United States has no use for any of the former oil producing countries, they might help Israel just take them all down if things go hostile. Or they'll just sit back and watch since helping Israel will gain them nothing just like helping the Arabs would give them nothing.
As a part of a family that owns a few Texas natural gas wells (currently on standby til the leasing company decides its profitable), I anxiously await our assault on foreign oil dependency....

But the fact is... most of the *easy* oil and gas is gone... the remainder will be more and more expensive to obtain. Some of the methods have terrible side effects (e.g. fracking).

Its much faster and much more effective to *reduce* the amount of energy we use in the first place -- many of the US domestic electric companies are figuring this out on their own. Reduced usage == not having to build a new plant, less infrastructure maintenance, etc. Transportation systems that make more effective use of oil (ya know.. trains vs 18-wheelers... the change had less to do with economy than with fads in "just-in-time" inventory and political maneuvering for subsidies).
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Old 2011-03-31, 00:48   Link #12826
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Hmmm. I fear for Israel on that day. Though on the other hand, if the United States has no use for any of the former oil producing countries, they might help Israel just take them all down if things go hostile. Or they'll just sit back and watch since helping Israel will gain them nothing just like helping the Arabs would give them nothing.
on the day that the Oil runs out, US assistence would not be required to make them collapse.
hell, Israeli assistence would not be required to make them collapse.
without Oil, most of the middle east, and especially the Persian gulf states, cave in on their own.
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Old 2011-03-31, 01:25   Link #12827
Ithekro
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Well maybe some space tourism will jump start some of the economic and business types into more and more space commerce. A new economy.
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Old 2011-03-31, 03:10   Link #12828
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China military policy paper lays out worries about U.S.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...72U0SE20110331
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Old 2011-03-31, 03:25   Link #12829
Ithekro
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I'm more worried about reports of up to five Chinese aircraft carriers under construction. Right now the Chinese military cannot really power project, and can only use long range missiles against the United States. It is currectly hemmed in by the United States Navy along with the navies of Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. However 5 carriers (reportedly including two nuclear powered ones) could change that since the United States 11 carrier strike groups are divided across the entire planet, even more so than say during the Second World War when the US had just a two Ocean Fleet policy as oppose to what is basically a three Ocean and several Seas policy now.
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Old 2011-03-31, 04:59   Link #12830
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I'm more worried about reports of up to five Chinese aircraft carriers under construction. Right now the Chinese military cannot really power project, and can only use long range missiles against the United States. It is currectly hemmed in by the United States Navy along with the navies of Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. However 5 carriers (reportedly including two nuclear powered ones) could change that since the United States 11 carrier strike groups are divided across the entire planet, even more so than say during the Second World War when the US had just a two Ocean Fleet policy as oppose to what is basically a three Ocean and several Seas policy now.
5? where do those come from? I mean, they have no experience in operating one, does anyone in his right mind will think suddenly getting 5 is good idea? These stuff are nothing but targets if you don't have the capable personnel to man them.
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Old 2011-03-31, 05:07   Link #12831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I'm more worried about reports of up to five Chinese aircraft carriers under construction. Right now the Chinese military cannot really power project, and can only use long range missiles against the United States. It is currectly hemmed in by the United States Navy along with the navies of Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. However 5 carriers (reportedly including two nuclear powered ones) could change that since the United States 11 carrier strike groups are divided across the entire planet, even more so than say during the Second World War when the US had just a two Ocean Fleet policy as oppose to what is basically a three Ocean and several Seas policy now.
So I suppose it will be another Battle of Midway but 21st century style?
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Old 2011-03-31, 05:17   Link #12832
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
5? where do those come from? I mean, they have no experience in operating one, does anyone in his right mind will think suddenly getting 5 is good idea? These stuff are nothing but targets if you don't have the capable personnel to man them.
since when does common sense factor into decisions who's purpose is prestige.

Iran has no idea of how to create nuclear weapons,
enough Oil that producing energy using nuclear power is redundent,
and is situated in an area that is very prone to suffering from earthquakes, which as Japan has recently shown us, is bad for nuclear reactors.

and yet, the prestige of it is enough to make them persue the issue.

never underestimate the stupidity that people would sink to when pride gets the better of them.
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Old 2011-03-31, 05:29   Link #12833
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
5? where do those come from? I mean, they have no experience in operating one, does anyone in his right mind will think suddenly getting 5 is good idea? These stuff are nothing but targets if you don't have the capable personnel to man them.
I always though that naval doctrine for aircraft carriers are the easiest as compared to frigates, which require more extensive micromanagement and battle maneuvers.

The only problem is which plane to deploy and in what number.
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Old 2011-03-31, 09:19   Link #12834
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
since when does common sense factor into decisions who's purpose is prestige.
Since the time people need some common sense when reading news reports. Accepting the supposedly report at face value while saying people do not always do things that make sense is kind of ironical.

Since no one has the exactly the number, the "up to five" is most likely speculation, and an exaggerated one. IMHO: there are possibly two carries in the making: there is this old refitted soviet model, and possibly another one to test the design and construction facilities, just to make sure the capacity is there. I will need quite some reason to believe there is a third one. In the blue prints? Very likely! Building? Why?
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Old 2011-03-31, 09:36   Link #12835
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I always though that naval doctrine for aircraft carriers are the easiest as compared to frigates, which require more extensive micromanagement and battle maneuvers.

The only problem is which plane to deploy and in what number.
Not really, carrier operations are very complex. You have all the problems of a large ship, with the added problems of managing the aircraft over the battlespace, and operating them efficiently off of the limited deckspace of a carrier.
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Old 2011-03-31, 10:14   Link #12836
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
In other news of the "let's attack the groups that represent our key voting base", senior GOP lawmakers are demanding an investigation of the AARP (for demanding healthcare reform apparently though the GOP is appalled, yes, appalled I say at the possible that the AARP might have gained from the passage of the new laws)...

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/30/134985...rp?ft=1&f=1001
Good. Revoke that non-profit status.
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Old 2011-03-31, 10:18   Link #12837
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Good. Revoke that non-profit status.
You wouldn't say that if you were 20 years older .
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Old 2011-03-31, 10:23   Link #12838
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You can revoke the AARP's non-profit status if I get to revoke the non-profit status of the Heritage Foundation and the US Chamber of Commerce.
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Old 2011-03-31, 10:55   Link #12839
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You can revoke the AARP's non-profit status if I get to revoke the non-profit status of the Heritage Foundation and the US Chamber of Commerce.
I doubt Justin would care about those organizations (I suspect he would be fine without any non-profits...though that's a little short sighted). The NRA, though...(unless he's a member of GOA, in which case down with the NRA ).

This isn't the first time the Republicans have gone after the AARP. In the 90s a Finance committee, run by Republicans, targeted the AARP's non-profit status, only to fail at finding any evidence to revoke the status. Not much has changed since then (though I doubt the Republicans are happy about the organizations support of Obamacare/Health Care reform), so this is just a bunch of hot air.
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Old 2011-03-31, 14:30   Link #12840
Ithekro
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The Chinese have been working on that Soviet Carrier for a while now. Rumors suggest they have a 1 to 1 scale model of a Nimitz-class carrier for flight operations training. Two seem to be the plan to build, plus a possible two more that are nuclear powered. Add to this the ex-Soviet carrier, gets you five. However this force would not be avalible until the 2020s at the earliest. That gives them ten years to train people.

In ten years the US carrier fleet will probably be reduced to ten, possibly eight carriers, depending on funding for new Ford-class carrier construction verse the eventual retirement of the early Nimitz-class carriers, and operations costs judged by Congress. Enterprise will be retired in the next few years. Though if the Nimitz-class can hold up as long as Enterprise, they should all be viable until the late 2020s and or 2030s, with later built ones lasting to the 2050s, or even 2060.
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