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Old 2011-04-14, 22:54   Link #13061
mysterious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I realize that, however it's still progress. That's why I said his reasoning was vague....on one hand he is saying it is good for disease prevention and prostitution, on the other he downplays the contraceptive aspect. Surely he realizes that the entire point of a condom is for sexual purposes, but he has a tight rope to walk in what he says, something I think he learned the hard way from his initial comments about condoms.

Remember that this was a reversal of his previous comment, which was that "condoms make the Aids crisis worse". He's a staunch advocator of abstinence and fidelity through marriage, which is to be expected, but to walk back even some of his statement is a big step for the Church, at least in my opinion.
Seriously, I would prefer that he didnt change his stance at all so more people can realize how mess up the whole system is and left it. Now that he slightly change his stance, who wanna bet sometimes in the future, the church will totally okay with abortion and stuff to please the mass? Then the religion continue live on. I dont know if my last two sentences make sense (having trouble to express my thought there).
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Old 2011-04-14, 23:57   Link #13062
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Seriously, I would prefer that he didnt change his stance at all so more people can realize how mess up the whole system is and left it. Now that he slightly change his stance, who wanna bet sometimes in the future, the church will totally okay with abortion and stuff to please the mass? Then the religion continue live on. I dont know if my last two sentences make sense (having trouble to express my thought there).
Look at it this way: People who realize the scam have already left, and there will be those who leave because they're pissed off by the shift in stance. The religion doesn't really "live on" if it becomes completely different than what it is now, nor will it cause anymore damage if it abandons its failed social agenda.
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Old 2011-04-15, 01:13   Link #13063
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Though the religious right in America is more represented by evangelicals and fundamentalists than Catholics. Still, that's a good step I guess.

Protestants: reliable base of support for Republicans
Catholics: reliable base of support for Democrats
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Old 2011-04-15, 02:04   Link #13064
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
Protestants: reliable base of support for Republicans
Catholics: reliable base of support for Democrats
A bit of an oversimplification, though anecdotally I suppose I've noticed this as well. I wonder if there are any studies on the subject. Being an agnostic in both the theistic and political sense, I have no say on the matter.
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Old 2011-04-15, 02:36   Link #13065
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
I really shouldn't have to explain why that's wrong. This is something that should really be apparent to anyone. First of all, a the wealthy do not spend as much of their income on taxable goods as the poor and middle class. Much of their money is invested, while the poor and middle class are forced to spend more of their income on taxable goods. Not to mention, it would likely hurt the auto industry, the consumer electronics industry, and likely the retail industry as a whole. Further, even if one were to claim they spend about the same amount, a national sales tax is going to be harder on someone making 24,000 a year than on someone making 2.4 million a year. The latter applies to a flat income tax as well. There's a reason most countries in the world have progressive tax rates after all. A national sales tax and/or a flat tax are in effect giving a massive tax cut to the wealthiest members of society, while increasing the tax burden on the poor and middle class, and cutting federal revenue in the process. Flat taxes and national sales taxes are the economic equivalent of troll physics.

edit: If I seem more annoyed than usual in this post, it's because I had to retype it several times due to browser crashes.
Canada uses a mix of a progressive income tax and a national sales tax (often collected alongside a provincial sales tax). Under the previous Liberal government, tax cuts would typically be on the income side, but if you had a low income you could apply for a sales tax rebate as well. When I was in university some of us geekier students would refer to it as "the federal grant for gaming" because most students qualified and it gave us a bit of money to upgrade our PCs.

Unforunately the current Conservative government decided it wanted to do sales tax cuts instead, even though they could have given low and average income Canadians a bigger tax cut by pumping the same amount of revenue into income tax cuts and sales tax rebates. Which may have in fact been the point, seems like its stock strategy for conservative politicians to gut maximize reduction in incoming revenue with their initial tax cuts so they can justify cuts and freezes to spending, I've noticed it in a few countries.

(No points for guessing who I'm not voting for in May... I wish someone would actually point out how bad Harper's record on taxes actually is, but explaining the effects of tax structure seems to be beyond the average election campaign.)
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Old 2011-04-15, 04:22   Link #13066
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
(No points for guessing who I'm not voting for in May... I wish someone would actually point out how bad Harper's record on taxes actually is, but explaining the effects of tax structure seems to be beyond the average election campaign.)
I would say than anthing a little complicated is beyong the average election campaign ; it's all big promise but no explanation.
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Old 2011-04-15, 10:58   Link #13067
AnimeFan188
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Israelis brace for major war with Hamas

"Israeli military chiefs say a large-scale conflict is inevitable despite a shaky cease-
fire since Monday in their current confrontation with Palestinian fundamentalists of
Hamas in the Gaza Strip."

See:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Isra...Hamas_999.html


First all the Arab uprisings, now this. The whole area's even more of a
powderkeg than usual these days.
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Old 2011-04-15, 11:11   Link #13068
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post

First all the Arab uprisings, now this. The whole area's even more of a
powderkeg than usual these days.
Ironically enough, the more time passes the lesser the chance of a renewed conflict and in a couple of years that threat would be almost gone.
I wonder if thats the reason for the two rocket attacks today despite the ceasefire.

someone in Gaza trying to forcefully provoke a war ?
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Old 2011-04-15, 12:20   Link #13069
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Ironically enough, the more time passes the lesser the chance of a renewed conflict and in a couple of years that threat would be almost gone.

Why is that? I can hardly imagine that - considering the current settlement policies and the hardliners in power on the three sides.
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Old 2011-04-15, 12:30   Link #13070
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Why is that? I can hardly imagine that - considering the current settlement policies and the hardliners in power on the three sides.
I have to agree. The Palestinians haven't been given any new motivation or reason that appeals to them to not want to wage war on Israel. Especially in the aftermath of that knife attack on that settlement, that the Israelis ok'ed the construction of a new one. It's kinda crazy how I've sen some Israeli people online claiming the settlement issue isn't a big deal, despite it being one of the primary concerns of people shooting rockets at them.


How can anyone argue that it's not a major issue if it motivates one side to start shooting at the other?
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Old 2011-04-15, 12:32   Link #13071
Ithekro
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Aren't the Palestinians working up to be declared a country by the United Nations this fall? The West Bank at least, can't say much about the Gaza Strip...We figured it was imposssible to keep that and the West Bank as a single country with Israel between them almost two decades ago...in high school.
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Old 2011-04-15, 12:38   Link #13072
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Why is that? I can hardly imagine that - considering the current settlement policies and the hardliners in power on the three sides.
usually, war breaks out when one side :
1)wants to go to war
2)believes that they are in a position to win (by their standards of victory).
one does not go to war when they know they have no chance of victory at all.

In the case with Hamas, their primary weapon systems when it comes to attacking is launching rockets and morters at Israeli cities, because its the only weapon they have.
they have no tanks, jets, ships, or anything else, just rockets with various degrees of range and power.

In the last flair up last week, Israel introduced a system called Iron dome.
Iron dome basically works by shooting down any rocket fired by Hamas if the system believes that it would land in a populated area.
so far, Israel only has two batteries, which can protect 2 cities, but in the next few years, Israel plans to build up to a dozen additional batteries, which would cover every city and town within rocket range.

which means, within a decade, Hamas's ONLY weapon is completely useless in battle.
and if, like i mentioned, one side knows that they have no chance of victory, because their only weapon is completely ineffective, one does not go to war.
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:20   Link #13073
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
usually, war breaks out when one side :
1)wants to go to war
2)believes that they are in a position to win (by their standards of victory).
one does not go to war when they know they have no chance of victory at all.

In the case with Hamas, their primary weapon systems when it comes to attacking is launching rockets and morters at Israeli cities, because its the only weapon they have.
they have no tanks, jets, ships, or anything else, just rockets with various degrees of range and power.

In the last flair up last week, Israel introduced a system called Iron dome.
Iron dome basically works by shooting down any rocket fired by Hamas if the system believes that it would land in a populated area.
so far, Israel only has two batteries, which can protect 2 cities, but in the next few years, Israel plans to build up to a dozen additional batteries, which would cover every city and town within rocket range.

which means, within a decade, Hamas's ONLY weapon is completely useless in battle.
and if, like i mentioned, one side knows that they have no chance of victory, because their only weapon is completely ineffective, one does not go to war.
They're already completely useless in battle though. The rockets have horrible accuracy. Iron dome only targets the ones that have a trajectory that will hit a city. The vast majority of these rockets are not intercepted, because there is no need to do so. If Hamas had rockets that could actually hit something though, it would be trivial to swamp iron dome with sheer volume of fire. Further, their rockets do cost much less than an iron dome missile after all. At about $100,000 each, assuming a 100% accuracy rate and no launch failures, intercepting just 100 Hamas rockets would cost Israel $10,000,000. Making those rockets would cost Hamas maybe $10,000, at most. Of course Hamas making rockets that can actually hit something would likely cut into that cost advantage they have over iron dome and cut down on the number they can produce. Anyway, the point is iron dome isn't a magic I win button.
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:25   Link #13074
Ithekro
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Perhaps, but it does make short term harrasment a non-viable means of warfare. Also if the Iron Dome works in numbers, the Israelis don't need to use their more well known form of relaliation...missles from the sky. Though they probably still can since I imagine the new systems will pinpoint the rocket launching site and send the intel to someone that would like to remove the source of the rockets.

That said, I still think the Gaza Strip needs to go.
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:41   Link #13075
bladeofdarkness
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do the basic math.

Hamas fires 100 rockets for every 10 that actually hit a target city.
thats a 10% success rate.

now have Iron dome take out 90% of the rockets that would end up hitting the city.
so out of every 100 rockets, 1 will land in a city.

now figure that over the last decade, over 8000 rocket attacks resulted in 28 deaths in Israel, and it means on average it takes almost 300 rockets to kill one person.
and now it would take 3000 rockets.

on the other hand, Iron dome also helps identify the source of the rocket launch, and help make it easier to take out the people who launched the rocket.
over the last week, over 10 launch teams were hit in just 3 days.

now Hamas decision makers are faced with a new reality.
If things escalate into a full blown war, they would find themselves in fucked sandwich.
on the one hand, they have no effective way to attack Israel at all.
and Israel is capable of attacking them at will, with even greater ease.
they would end up losing hundreds of men, and would barely even cause property damage.

when THOSE are the conditions you face, you try your best to avoid escalating the situation.

Quote:
At about $100,000 each, assuming a 100% accuracy rate and no launch failures, intercepting just 100 Hamas rockets would cost Israel $10,000,000. Making those rockets would cost Hamas maybe $10,000, at most.
a single Tamir missile costs 40,000 $, and its only going to drop with added sales.
intercepting 100 rockets would cost 4,000,000 $, which, from a defense budget prespective, its pretty negligible.

and the cost to Hamas would not be simply the cost of the missiles launched, but also the cost of the things lost in the Israeli retaliation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
That said, I still think the Gaza Strip needs to go.
I'm all for it, but whose going to take it ?
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Old 2011-04-15, 15:53   Link #13076
Ithekro
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What is there of value in the Strip? It is coastal. It is land. It is suited for crops, or just housing, industrial, or port type activities? I don't imagine any resources of note come from there.

It was part of Egypt a half century or so ago. If it could go back to them without as much risk to Israel, that would work. If it were to go to the UN as a nuetral land to keep UN forces based and supplied for use in the region, that might work. If it could go to Israel and be made fuctional, that might work. The hard question is, can it be an independant country (apart from the West Bank)? Does it have what it takes to be a country without simply inviting itself to be bulldozed by the Israeli Arny the moment it does somethig stupid that gets them a declared war?
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Old 2011-04-15, 16:03   Link #13077
bladeofdarkness
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Gaza, simply put, is WAY too small to function effectively as a country.
I don't think i can stress out just how small it is.
Its tiny.
Israel, is the 151st country in the world in size, and if Israel was the size of a football, Gaza would be the size of a ping pong ball next to it.

its also WAY too over populated (some claim, most crowded place on earth) and with an insane birth rate (5 kids per woman).
it gets its fuel, gas, what, electricity and food directly from either Israel or Egypt, and is incapable of effectively sustaining its population on its own.
it also has ZIP for natural resources, and no particular value of any other kind.

independence is impossible, which means its going to have to go to someone.
Neither Israel nor Egypt want it, and good luck getting the UN to take it as they have enough failed states to deal with.
throw in the radical group controlling it, and the fact that there are many OTHER, even MORE radical groups in it, and you have a territory that no one wants really.

Its a problem.
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Old 2011-04-15, 16:11   Link #13078
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
do the basic math.

Hamas fires 100 rockets for every 10 that actually hit a target city.
thats a 10% success rate.

now have Iron dome take out 90% of the rockets that would end up hitting the city.
so out of every 100 rockets, 1 will land in a city.

now figure that over the last decade, over 8000 rocket attacks resulted in 28 deaths in Israel, and it means on average it takes almost 300 rockets to kill one person.
and now it would take 3000 rockets.

on the other hand, Iron dome also helps identify the source of the rocket launch, and help make it easier to take out the people who launched the rocket.
over the last week, over 10 launch teams were hit in just 3 days.

now Hamas decision makers are faced with a new reality.
If things escalate into a full blown war, they would find themselves in fucked sandwich.
on the one hand, they have no effective way to attack Israel at all.
and Israel is capable of attacking them at will, with even greater ease.
they would end up losing hundreds of men, and would barely even cause property damage.

when THOSE are the conditions you face, you try your best to avoid escalating the situation.
That's not a new reality. That's the situation as it is now. They're already completely ineffective. Making them more completely ineffective doesn't change things much.

Quote:
a single Tamir missile costs 40,000 $, and its only going to drop with added sales.
intercepting 100 rockets would cost 4,000,000 $, which, from a defense budget prespective, its pretty negligible.
That is not the number I've heard, though it is the number on wikipedia. It could be a difference of unit cost and unit cost with development funds included though. Sort of how an F-22 costs about $150 million to actually purchase a new airframe, or 350 million, if you count development costs.

Quote:
and the cost to Hamas would not be simply the cost of the missiles launched, but also the cost of the things lost in the Israeli retaliation.
Which is already the situation and has been for quite some time. This just makes it a bit more lopsided. Iron dome won't stop attacks from occurring, and military retaliation won't make Hamas sue for peace any more than past Israeli military action has. The idea that if Israel can just hit them hard enough, if they can just make the cost so stacked against the Palestinians, they'll give up is fundamentally flawed.
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Old 2011-04-15, 16:20   Link #13079
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
That's not a new reality. That's the situation as it is now. They're already completely ineffective. Making them more completely ineffective doesn't change things much.
it actually is.
right now, the use of rockets can effectively disturb the day to day lives of over 1 million Israeli civilians, which is the whole point.
if thats gone, then they have nothing left.

Quote:
That is not the number I've heard, though it is the number on wikipedia. It could be a difference of unit cost and unit cost with development funds included though. Sort of how an F-22 costs about $150 million to actually purchase a new airframe, or 350 million, if you count development costs.
the cost of a battery is 35 million, but each additional missile is 40,000


Quote:
Which is already the situation and has been for quite some time. This just makes it a bit more lopsided. Iron dome won't stop attacks from occurring, and military retaliation won't make Hamas sue for peace any more than past Israeli military action has. The idea that if Israel can just hit them hard enough, if they can just make the cost so stacked against the Palestinians, they'll give up is fundamentally flawed.
you're thinking that the goal is to make Hamas "sue for peace" is fundamentally flawed.
Hamas will sue for peace when hell freezes over.
till then, the goal is to prevent them from being able to disrupt day to day life in Israel.

thats the goal.
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Old 2011-04-15, 16:27   Link #13080
Ithekro
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Basically the goal is containment without loss of Israeli lives.
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