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Old 2011-07-23, 15:17   Link #15081
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaze View Post
That IS life term

They have the same bullshit in most European countries.

Life = 20-30 years in jail with parole in 15 years.


It's because we have seen too many wars on this continent.
Most countries abolished the death penalty in 1918.
I don't know about other european countries. But the german life term is is in average 21.5 years. Parole is possible at 15 years. It works like this. If the court has determined that a severe gravity of guilt exists, then the convict's case will be reviewed by the parole court after 15 years. It determines in light of the severe gravity of guilt and the development of the prisoner if and how many additional years the inmate has to serve before he is eligible to apply for early release. There is no legal limit on the term the parole court can hand down. However usually it is 4–5 years.

In cases where the convict is found to pose a clear and present danger to society, the sentence may include a provision for "preventive detention" after the actual sentence. This is not considered a punishment, but a protection of the public, and elements of prison discipline that are not directly security-related will be relaxed for those in preventive detention. The preventive detention is prolonged every two years until it is found that the convict is unlikely to commit further crimes.

So essentially it is possible to keep someone in detention his/her whole life (at least in Germany).
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Old 2011-07-23, 15:26   Link #15082
Bri
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Seems the Oslo-attacker's world of warcraft-account has been identified by fellow players/guildies who recognised him from guild forums and ventrillo. The guy played on the server: Silvermoon EU, had a lvl 85 mage called Conservatism. It's such a strange feeling to realize that behind the posts of what appear to be a normal player is such a monster. Weird how small the world has become through internet.

Also some of his political views have been collected from a political message board (Norwegian text), which confirm his anti-islamic, extremist right wing views.

http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/
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Old 2011-07-23, 15:28   Link #15083
RandySyler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
As long as you're talking about percentages, I'm going to completely agree with you. If you're talking about flat tax, you're bonkers.

Tax everyone at the same percentage, and don't offer any loopholes for the big boys to wiggle through.
Of course it has to be on a percentage scale, after all a flat tax for a middle class citizen could be 10% of their salary, wheras a corporate executive that makes ten times more would only pay 1% of their salary, which is therefore basically the tax breaks that I mentioned above. However, there shouldn't be more of a tax percentage for the wealthy, because that would be total discrimination.
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Old 2011-07-23, 15:46   Link #15084
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandySyler View Post
However, there shouldn't be more of a tax percentage for the wealthy, because that would be total discrimination.
Why would a progressive tax be total discrimination? With the same logic you could argument that being rich discriminates the poor. It would be nonsensical to tax someone who can barely survive with 30% and then give hime the same 30% as a means of welfare. This is worse for this person's dignity then not to tax him/her at all.
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Old 2011-07-23, 16:06   Link #15085
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
As long as you're talking about percentages, I'm going to completely agree with you. If you're talking about flat tax, you're bonkers.

Tax everyone at the same percentage, and don't offer any loopholes for the big boys to wiggle through.
Sorry to argue semantics but a flat tax is percentage based. If it's a fixed amount then it's called a lump-sum tax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Why would a progressive tax be total discrimination? With the same logic you could argument that being rich discriminates the poor. It would be nonsensical to tax someone who can barely survive with 30% and then give hime the same 30% as a means of welfare. This is worse for this person's dignity then not to tax him/her at all.
There is also a very strong economic rationale for progressive taxation: low incomes consume most of their income and taxation will directly affect their demand for goods and services. Higher incomes will spend a far smaller part of their income on consumption and will save/invest the rest. Progressive taxes will therefore have a less negative impact on short-term employment than flat taxes for a given revenue total.
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Old 2011-07-23, 16:11   Link #15086
RandySyler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Why would a progressive tax be total discrimination? With the same logic you could argument that being rich discriminates the poor. It would be nonsensical to tax someone who can barely survive with 30% and then give hime the same 30% as a means of welfare. This is worse for this person's dignity then not to tax him/her at all.
Perhaps I should have used the phrase tax proportion, as in a sudden jump in tax percentage for a certain higher income rather than a proportionate curve all the way up.
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Old 2011-07-23, 17:16   Link #15087
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
S
There is also a very strong economic rationale for progressive taxation: low incomes consume most of their income and taxation will directly affect their demand for goods and services. Higher incomes will spend a far smaller part of their income on consumption and will save/invest the rest. Progressive taxes will therefore have a less negative impact on short-term employment than flat taxes for a given revenue total.
Aye, consumption drives the economy, the poor spend the vast majority of their income, while the rich don't. Hence, poor>rich. Meanwhile I'm also all for the proliferation of overpriced luxury goods, as that achieves much the same effect, of distributing wealth to the workers who made the good.

While we're on this, the republicans also have to drop their opposition to "death taxes", or as it's more usually called inheritance tax. Inheritance tax is the only thing that prevents estates from snowballing. I'd keep it high. Just as the sins of the father should not be visited on the son, why should the success of the father be visited upon the son? What has the child done to earn his inheritance? NOTHING. And further, most people will never have to pay significant inheritance tax anyway. Right now the threshold in the US is 5 million! Personally I think that threshold should be lowered... Poor widdle rich yale boys, you can't pay 2 million out of your 10 million inheritance!

At some point it all stops being about personal freedom and a smaller efficient state, and just starts being about unbridled greed. I have sympathy for much of what libertarians and even the tea party talk about, but they have to recognise that their cause has been hijacked (if not outright created and orchestrated) by rich guys who don't give a damn about them.

EDIT: That's not to say the inheritance tax system shouldn't be changed, for instance I'd change it to tax the receiver, not the estate. So if a large estate is broken up into many pieces it's not taxed. So the tax serves it's purpose of preventing the accumulation of assets under a single name.

Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-07-23 at 17:28.
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Old 2011-07-23, 17:25   Link #15088
MrTerrorist
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Amy Winehouse found dead, aged 27

Such a tragedy. My condolences to her family.
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Old 2011-07-23, 18:35   Link #15089
Mystique
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Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Amy Winehouse found dead, aged 27

Such a tragedy. My condolences to her family.
Indeed, I've not been home for years so didn't know of her continuing downfall with her battle with drugs, but aparently the general agreement is 'very sad, waste of pure talent but not surprising, saw it coming'.

Especially since her father had been trying to get her clean for years.
If nothing else, may her death along with tons of other rock stars dying cause of drug abuse serve as a reminder.

With this on top of the sad events in Norway, one really needs to treat their lives with more care, we only have the one shot and no one knows if it'll be robbed or lost or when...
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Old 2011-07-23, 19:05   Link #15090
Jinto
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
There is also a very strong economic rationale for progressive taxation: low incomes consume most of their income and taxation will directly affect their demand for goods and services. Higher incomes will spend a far smaller part of their income on consumption and will save/invest the rest. Progressive taxes will therefore have a less negative impact on short-term employment than flat taxes for a given revenue total.
Yes in general I agree. But I had my thoughts about it. If someone who earns much money does not save it but consumes it, you would actually hurt economy a little bit at this point. Hence, I think progressive taxation should have an early limit. Its more interesting to tax wealth/luxury in general (e.g. tax money, stocks, houses, cars whatever is considered luxury progressive based on the combined value).
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Old 2011-07-23, 19:23   Link #15091
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
he self-identifies as an extreme right wing, Christian fundamentalist deeply opposed to multi-cultural society and any mixing of the races.

no no no

this one is of different breed...

http://markhumphrys.com/norway.attacks.html

Quote:
This sadistic, barbaric attack must be one of the strangest terror attacks ever. One would never think, from the killer's online comments, that he was a mass murderer in waiting.

The killer was right-wing and anti-jihad, yes, but he was not a neo-Nazi (he was pro-Israel) or a white supremacist (he opposed the BNP because they are racist). He was Christian, but not a fanatic (he was pro-gay).

In fact he was apparently like me - liberal right. He was anti-racist, pro-gay and pro-Israel. So how on earth did someone like that become a terrorist against the West?

Perhaps he radically changed his politics since his last post to document.no in Oct 2010 (see below). Can we see any writings of his between Oct 2010 and July 2011?
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Old 2011-07-23, 19:46   Link #15092
Kaze
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Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
I don't know about other european countries. But the german life term is is in average 21.5 years. Parole is possible at 15 years. It works like this. If the court has determined that a severe gravity of guilt exists, then the convict's case will be reviewed by the parole court after 15 years. It determines in light of the severe gravity of guilt and the development of the prisoner if and how many additional years the inmate has to serve before he is eligible to apply for early release. There is no legal limit on the term the parole court can hand down. However usually it is 4–5 years.

In cases where the convict is found to pose a clear and present danger to society, the sentence may include a provision for "preventive detention" after the actual sentence. This is not considered a punishment, but a protection of the public, and elements of prison discipline that are not directly security-related will be relaxed for those in preventive detention. The preventive detention is prolonged every two years until it is found that the convict is unlikely to commit further crimes.

So essentially it is possible to keep someone in detention his/her whole life (at least in Germany).

This is correct, but it is like that because the USA has had a serious influence in German laws since 1945.. (Not starting about wars, now is NOT the time) which ended in 1990 when Germany re-united.
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Old 2011-07-23, 19:48   Link #15093
DonQuigleone
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And he liked John Stuart Mill enough to quote him before going off to do his acts. As philosophers go Mill is one of the guys I'd never associate with inspiring terrorists...
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Old 2011-07-23, 22:07   Link #15094
synaesthetic
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Maybe all this insane media sensationalism, fearmongering, corruption and craziness just drove him off the deep end? He doesn't strike me as a terrorist. He strikes me more as a person pushed too far, and snapped.
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Old 2011-07-23, 22:23   Link #15095
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Tax everyone at the same percentage, and don't offer any loopholes for the big boys to wiggle through.
I don't think than the ''fixe rate or progresive rate'' thing is the big problem, the big proble is more about thoses loophole. Than you taxt the big boy at X% or Y% wouldn't change a thing if they still have way to avoid to pay tax.
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Old 2011-07-23, 22:53   Link #15096
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
I don't think than the ''fixe rate or progresive rate'' thing is the big problem, the big proble is more about thoses loophole. Than you taxt the big boy at X% or Y% wouldn't change a thing if they still have way to avoid to pay tax.
Quite so:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...loopholes.html
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Old 2011-07-23, 23:22   Link #15097
synaesthetic
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Right. I don't blame Google or any company for doing this, either. It's not their fault; they are corporations, and corporations are amoral. This choice makes the most business sense, and it's not illegal.

I blame the government for not plugging these loopholes. The fact that these loopholes exist means the government is not doing its job.

Edit: Were I in politics, I would lower corporate taxes and close these loopholes, but do so in such a way that the total taxes collected were higher than before. The Republicans would have a very hard time crying foul, and more tax revenue would be generated.
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Old 2011-07-23, 23:53   Link #15098
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Were I in politics, I would lower corporate taxes and close these loopholes, but do so in such a way that the total taxes collected were higher than before. The Republicans would have a very hard time crying foul, and more tax revenue would be generated.
Except that was in one of the recent proposals, and Republicans cried foul and shot it down. The proposed percentage I believe was between 21% and 29% (the specifics weren't listed in the article), down from 35%, but in exchange loopholes would have been closed.
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Old 2011-07-24, 00:00   Link #15099
Echoes
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Warning: This is a long, and if you're not interested in the subject matter (maybe even if you are); boring, post. Feel free to ignore the wall of text and proceed with your discussion on economics, on which I will plead ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Maybe all this insane media sensationalism, fearmongering, corruption and craziness just drove him off the deep end? He doesn't strike me as a terrorist. He strikes me more as a person pushed too far, and snapped.
Maybe. There are a myriad of reasons why he might have ended up the way he did, but from his statements and actions I get the impression that he is both intelligent and educated in many fields. He was not some half-wit who took up a gun because he listened to conservative talk radio one day. He has released a 1500-page manifesto, detailing his daily activities as well his preparations for his mission. The planning was meticulous and extremely detailed. He put years of work into this. Reading though a lot of his entries, it's strange, and somehow sad, to see how very human he was. He talks about which TV shows he enjoyed, enthusiastically detail a simple restaurant meal he treated himself to for his "hard work" and bemoans the fact that he was infected with a sore throat by spending time with his mother. Of course, he also details the eighty days it took him to assemble the explosives, and many other preparatory activities he performed over this period.

After loading the explosives and equipment into his truck he wrote "Exhausted!!! But it was a good workout." He also used smileys such as ":-)" and expressions such as "lol", which is just unnerving to look at in retrospect. He doesn't really strike me as the kind of guy who'd do something like this either reading through his entries, but then again, what was I expecting? Some sort of emotionless machine, straight out of a poorly written action movie, I suppose. Reality can be so much more complex, and what truly went on in his mind may be beyond any of our reckoning.

He claims that Europe is going through a Civil War, which he claims will end multiculturalism and what he refers to as "cultural Marxism." He claims that this struggle has already begun (it'll supposedly end in 2083 according to him, now there's a specific prediction!) During this period, multicultural cities will be defeated, Islam expelled from Europe, and a new beginning will await the survivors.

According to this manifesto, it would seem that he places a heavier emphasis on Christianity as part of his ideological utopia, but it was still premature of the media to label him a Christian terrorist before this was released.

A short excerpt: "I am quite certain that I will be praying to God while I race though my city, guns blazing, while a hundred armed protectors of the system give chase to stop or kill me."

Another, much more worrying one: "The time for dialogue is over. We gave peace a chance. The the has come for armed resistance." He goes on to pinpoint the American intervention in Serbia as the beginning of the European Civil War that has been going on ever since. He claims to be a member of a group that call themselves the Knights Templar Europe, (he was a member of the Norwegian Freemason lodge, but was obviously expelled immediately after news of his crime surfaced.) Worryingly, he also details contacts he has had with other cells of his network, which he claims is international and founded in London in 2002 with 12 members from 10 European nations.

It is, of course, highly possible that he has fabricated and/or exaggerated any or all of these claims.
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Old 2011-07-24, 00:26   Link #15100
Vexx
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Well.. at the least if one knows anything about the historical Knights Templar --- this may be a disturbing development. The influx of "islamic" immigrants into Europe (especially without any cultural assimilation or integration) has been steadily dialing up the pressure on the existing northern european cultures for years. If one really thinks a way of life is vanishing (rather than evolving)... then it could get pretty nasty.
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