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Old 2011-07-30, 17:30   Link #15261
Slick_rick
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The tea party views are not in themselves racist but the party tends to attract a fair amount of racist people because of their views. Their dislike of social programs attract those that hate programs designed to help blacks and immigrants in the past few decades to rise up. Now their is some disagreement on how much its helped but before such social programs most blacks lived in abject poverty with almost no education and that's not the case now. I know these programs aren't perfect but the belief that they've held the blacks back seems a bit absurd. They'll always be people who try to game any system but

The main issue with some low class whites I feel is that even if they receive some form of government assistance themselves they feel that if it wasn't for immigrants taking money from them or affirmative action taking jobs from them then they wouldn't be on it.

Also Sackett, I don't necessarily agree with all your views about what the tea party views are. Many of those rants many of us might agree with but the tea party main problem is the wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater. This programs do help people out, not necessary them but we live in a society. All this talk of me, I is the exactly why the tea party is so unlikable in my mind. They only care about themselves not the country.

Also pity is a good way of show the view of the tea party towards blacks. It points out Vexx point of need to view someone as less than them. It shows exactly how they tend to look down on blacks for not being them its not like a good majority of them have ever needed government help, I bet they have. Its not sympathy or empathy towards there situation, its their higher than thou views. Their own inability to see outside of themselves.
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Old 2011-07-30, 17:32   Link #15262
synaesthetic
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Exactly. This "SCREW YOU, I'VE GOT MINE" attitude is why we're in a corporatist cyberpunk dystopia right now, and the Tea Party is just perpetuating that horrifyingly selfish and unnatural ideology.

Humans are social creatures. We need each other to survive. It's that simple.
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Old 2011-07-30, 17:42   Link #15263
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
That's the heart of it right there. The Tea Party is made up of people who value their economic independence more than they do their economic bottom line.
Interesting representation of the tea party. Are they basically an anarchist movement?
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Old 2011-07-30, 18:14   Link #15264
Ithekro
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The middle ground is generally the correct answer in politics. The trouble is that the two main parties are the middle ground. Everything else in this country is extreme, either in views (libertarian), or on major platform issues (green). Neither is taken seriously on the national level....or at least enough to matter.
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Old 2011-07-30, 18:18   Link #15265
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Interesting representation of the tea party. Are they basically an anarchist movement?
No, because no government means their money is worthless. They want a government, but they don't want it to do anything, so that their money is still valuable. Of course, that's just what it's been corrupted into, not what it's supposed to represent.

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The middle ground is generally the correct answer in politics. The trouble is that the two main parties are supposed to be the middle ground.
Fixed that a bit.
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Old 2011-07-30, 18:22   Link #15266
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Interesting representation of the tea party. Are they basically an anarchist movement?
Used to be. The Tea Party was made up of libertarians and anarcho-capitalists who were all about a small, unintrusive government that meddled in only the aspects of life that it needed to--protecting individual rights, maintaining the military, maintaining the judiciary, things of that nature.

I can respect libertarians, they have a lot of good ideas. I can even respect anarcho-capitalists a bit, even though they live in a hopeless dreamworld. However, the Tea Party's original ideology was thoroughly hijacked and destroyed by a Glenn Beck/Sarah Palin/Michelle Bachmann breed of Faux News zombies who are basically Republicans who are too right-wing for the GOP.

Libertarians and anyone who believes in smaller, less-intrusive government would never advocate banning gay marriage. Instead, they'd advocate removing all the legal aspects of marriage altogether. Libertarians would never shill for big corporations, because one of the central tenants of libertarianism is that only individuals have rights--organizations do not.

The current Tea Party is not the original Tea Party. Instead, they are a bunch of soulless old losers who can't get over the fact that it's not 1954 anymore.
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Old 2011-07-30, 18:35   Link #15267
Ithekro
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Unfortuately, they are the middle gound in US politics. Not "suppose to be"...are. Everything else is more left or right of the two main parties actual work (not the bullshit you hear out of their mouths, what they actually do.)
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Old 2011-07-30, 18:38   Link #15268
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I suppose that's true. Unfortunately.
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Old 2011-07-30, 18:56   Link #15269
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Spoiler for Length:
I think the reason you hold your views are correct, but what you aim at is wrong. I think that government funding of pensions or healthcare with no preconditions (bar citizenship), can actually free you. Universal Healthcare is the best example. With Universal Healthcare you don't need to worry about your healthcare at all. You don't need to be imprisoned by decisions you may (or may not) have made 10 years before. You don't need to worry about whether your health insurance company will uphold it's end of the bargain. You just walk into a hospital/GP and make an appointment, and later you get it at a low (or minimal) fee. That's it, no paperwork involved. You're free to move anywhere, do whatever you want, safe in the knowledge that you don't need to worry about it. That's independence. Furthermore it's a more efficient way to fund and organise it, and like free education it benefits everyone for healthcare to avalaible to all and high quality. It improves productivity and quality of life. Furthermore in our lifetimes we'll likely all end out spending more or less the same amount on healthcare. Why not allow you to more easily anticipate that spending by paying out of tax? The main counter-argument there is that some may jeopardise their health with bad habits, well perhaps they should have to pay a tax to compensate the health service then...

It gives you more control of your life as it frees you from corporate interests defining what service YOU get. Instead the healthcare establishment (Doctors) decide what is feasible to provide for all. They know what is best for your health. If you want you can still go outside the system and buy quack medecines, but you're only harming yourself.

On taxes, the main issue is that the wealthy pay less in tax then us, the working class. Why should we be protecting their tax dodging? Let them pay tax like the rest of us. It's not about stealing from the rich, it's about getting them to pay their fair share to support the government.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Used to be. The Tea Party was made up of libertarians and anarcho-capitalists who were all about a small, unintrusive government that meddled in only the aspects of life that it needed to--protecting individual rights, maintaining the military, maintaining the judiciary, things of that nature.

I can respect libertarians, they have a lot of good ideas. I can even respect anarcho-capitalists a bit, even though they live in a hopeless dreamworld. However, the Tea Party's original ideology was thoroughly hijacked and destroyed by a Glenn Beck/Sarah Palin/Michelle Bachmann breed of Faux News zombies who are basically Republicans who are too right-wing for the GOP.

Libertarians and anyone who believes in smaller, less-intrusive government would never advocate banning gay marriage. Instead, they'd advocate removing all the legal aspects of marriage altogether. Libertarians would never shill for big corporations, because one of the central tenants of libertarianism is that only individuals have rights--organizations do not.

The current Tea Party is not the original Tea Party. Instead, they are a bunch of soulless old losers who can't get over the fact that it's not 1954 anymore.
Quite right. I don't understand why Tea Partiers are coming out against Gay Marriage and Abortion. Shouldn't those be the citizens choice? Why should you have to live by state enforced morality? You should be free to define your own morality.
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Old 2011-07-30, 19:08   Link #15270
synaesthetic
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Relevant personal anecdote: my teeth are basically ruined. They're broken, full of holes and two of them have snapped in half. I already can't eat a lot of foods, and soon I'll be able to eat even less when more teeth inevitably break off.

I can't afford to get them fixed in America, even if I saved every ounce of income, I would still not have enough (forget the whole rent, bills, groceries part too).

My teeth's sorry state are not my fault. I inherited a genetic condition from my father. We have extremely weak enamel that will demineralize at near neutral pH. My father, one of the most anal persons about dental hygiene you'd ever meet, lost all of his top teeth when he was thirty-two.

I can't get them fixed here. In a country with universal healthcare, I'd be able to get them fixed. But I can't do it here. It costs far too much. There's no way I can do a thing, but live with shattered and broken teeth, until I'm in a position where I make enough money to pay the dental bills.

"Pull myself up by my bootstraps" how? I went to the dentist--paid out of pocket for it, too, which I really could not afford--due to crippling tooth pain when one of my shattered wisdom teeth abcessed back in 2008. The dentist gave me the full extent of the damage. The cost to repair my mouth is just under twenty thousand dollars. And that was back in 2008. Obviously, more cumulative damage has accrued since then.

The two center top incisors have already lost almost half of their original mass. Eventually, they will break off, and then how the fuck am I supposed to eat? I won't even be able to bite food anymore.
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Old 2011-07-30, 19:52   Link #15271
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Libertarians and anyone who believes in smaller, less-intrusive government would never advocate banning gay marriage. Instead, they'd advocate removing all the legal aspects of marriage altogether. Libertarians would never shill for big corporations, because one of the central tenants of libertarianism is that only individuals have rights--organizations do not.
It's a problem for libertarians that once they have been in power, they end up getting marginalised between interest groups which represent people who either fail to make use of their individual freedom or who are a bit too good at it. Over here the libertarians are the traditional party of the the middle class enterpreneurs who dislike government regulation but are wary of strong arm practises of big business.

As a result in my country libertarians ended up moving more and more to the right the last two decades, though they still voted in favor of gay marriage ten years ago. Only the parties of the religious right were against, but lacked the numbers to hold it off anymore, their voting base is dying off from old age.
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Old 2011-07-30, 22:03   Link #15272
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Relevant personal anecdote: my teeth are basically ruined. They're broken, full of holes and two of them have snapped in half. I already can't eat a lot of foods, and soon I'll be able to eat even less when more teeth inevitably break off.

I can't afford to get them fixed in America, even if I saved every ounce of income, I would still not have enough (forget the whole rent, bills, groceries part too).

My teeth's sorry state are not my fault. I inherited a genetic condition from my father. We have extremely weak enamel that will demineralize at near neutral pH. My father, one of the most anal persons about dental hygiene you'd ever meet, lost all of his top teeth when he was thirty-two.

I can't get them fixed here. In a country with universal healthcare, I'd be able to get them fixed. But I can't do it here. It costs far too much. There's no way I can do a thing, but live with shattered and broken teeth, until I'm in a position where I make enough money to pay the dental bills.

"Pull myself up by my bootstraps" how? I went to the dentist--paid out of pocket for it, too, which I really could not afford--due to crippling tooth pain when one of my shattered wisdom teeth abcessed back in 2008. The dentist gave me the full extent of the damage. The cost to repair my mouth is just under twenty thousand dollars. And that was back in 2008. Obviously, more cumulative damage has accrued since then.

The two center top incisors have already lost almost half of their original mass. Eventually, they will break off, and then how the fuck am I supposed to eat? I won't even be able to bite food anymore.
Hey, have you investigated dental charity work? There's a program in Oregon but I don't know in California ... you might start calling dentists and ask them if they know of such (or call the state dental association). I won't lie, its hard to snare into but the payback might be worth it.

My problems aren't as bad as yours.. .but I have a lesser degree of a similar tendency to demineralize. Years of fillings, fractures, and recently a back upper molar just giving up because it was vastly more filling than tooth.
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Old 2011-07-30, 22:21   Link #15273
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Really?

Really?
Is this your rational speaking or just anger?

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
People don't agree with you, despite your plan obviously being better for them, so it must be racism and a desire to order people around?
On the other side... if a demagogue convinces people to believe something completely idiotic, like for instance far right ideology, then this doesn't mean the ideology is valid just because most believe it.
This sort of argumentation doesn't prove or disprove anything... it is basically useless.

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Let me explain why there are so many in poor rural areas that support the Tea Party (and why the Tea Party imagery resonates so strongly). But this first requires a history lesson.

Long ago, there was something called feudalism and mercantilism. That was the organization in England. If you wanted to get ahead in life you need to either be born into the right family (that owned land), or you needed to have connections to the government so that you could secure government preference, which would allow you to crush your competitors. If you didn't fall into those categories, then you just needed to accept your lot in life.

A bunch of people didn't like this. Mainly either younger sons or religious minorities (that lacked the favor of the government). They emigrated to America. Why? Because in America there was free land for anyone who was willing to work it. (We'll ignore the American Indians for now, yes I realize the land was theirs, but it's not relevant to the current topic of interest- the Tea Party).

They didn't want the feudal deal of serving their betters in England who would then look out for them. They wanted independence. Financial independence.
Actually they wanted to live a happier life. That this includes total financial independence is a myth, hearsay or lets just say new age propaganda. There is a difference between supporting your own country and being a colony supporting another country.

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Now these colonists began to become fairly successful. Unfortunately those who had closer connections to the King and Parliament in England began using those connections to pass laws that diverted wealth from the America colonials that produced it to those that had the better connections. (The tax was just the straw that broke the camel's back, there were several other issues such as requiring colonials ship their goods to England first before shipping elsewhere.) This lack of ability to influence the government that felt free to take the fruit of their labor led to a deep and widespread resentment. While the issue went far beyond "taxation without representation" that simplified focus became the rallying cry that represented the far broader concerns of people.
And I think thats understandable. There were no social programs for the people, so taxation could really ruin you in these times.
Today, its just luxury lamentation... (learn to complain, without suffering).

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And so we had the Boston Tea Party.

The colonials didn't want all the riches and benefits of being English anymore. They wanted independence. Political (and financial) independence.
Actually that independence was only a means to more prosperity. While this may work on an international level, it doesn't work within a nation's society. Good luck in trying to declare yourself independent from the poor.
This is just going to create more crime. Of course there will be people who want something like police state then, or fence themselves in - in higher class enclaves - that are basically like luxury prisons... I don't know if this flavor of "independence" is really preferable.

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Now fast forward to today's Tea Party.

You say: "Social Security is a good program that helps you, we need to protect it unchanged"
Nobody claims that it must remain unchanged. If this was just about change... the tea party wants to abolish it completely. There is quite a difference. The problem here is, that it should be changed for the better not the worse.

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The Tea Party says: "Yes, it's mine because I paid for it. But you want to put all these conditions on it. I have to stop working to collect them, and the returns are terrible.
This is precisely the old short sighted egoistical argument of "what are my direct returns on my investment". If people understood, that their qualitiy of living is also dependend on their surrounding society.. but their short sightedness is just part of a vicious circle (clever utilized by a money power elite).

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You then hold it hostage and threaten to take it away from me if I don't vote for more tax increases. I have to vote for someone to protect what ought to be already mine.
You live in a society that gives you certain benefits. However, this society cannot be maintained with nothing but thin air and the peoples good will (my theory is that by default there is very little if any good will... you have to do something to maintain that good will). Do you want to just leech from society.. than you will reap what you sow.

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If I bought private retirement insurance I wouldn't have to stop working, the money is mine.
Actually, those private insurers would not have any money left without the bank bailouts.

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And they couldn't threaten to take my money away from me if I didn't vote a certain way. Nor can they offer to give me extra bonuses I didn't pay for in order to win my support. - It may give me more money- but at the cost of independence. Now I have to worry about whether I can get the government to listen to me."
I think it is not a good idea to change a system that I do not understand. Most likely this will make things only worse.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
You say: "Obama's Health Care plan will make sure all of you have insurance and are cared for. It's good for you."
Well, Obamacare doesn't really concern me, but a similar system works quite okay where I live.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
The Tea Party says: "It forces me to buy insurance whether I want to or not. What do I do when the insurance company refuses to pay for something? They already got my money, and are going to keep on getting it no matter how unhappy I am.
Actually this scenario is more likely with private insurance. Federal insurance is standard for everyone. If you want to get additional insurance for the stuff that is not covered (for every citizen) it is certainly possible to get extra insurance to complement the health care plan.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
And the Government is establishing all the rules and regulators to determine what is and is not covered. What if I can't get the government to listen to me. It's making me lose control over my healthcare."
If you drive a car you need mandatory car insurance, you don't complain about that. So why do you complain about health care? Its not funny to have people who refuse to be treated and instead spread diseases.

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You say: "We need these regulations to protect us from greedy corporations who will do bad things to make money."
I think these things are not directly correlated.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
The Tea Party says: "Punish the guy who did the bad stuff, these regulations hurt the innocent just as much as the guilty.
Actually it hurts their short sighted egoistical understanding of "what is mine".

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
And those evil greedy corporations always have connections with the government, so they get special breaks that I can't get because I can't get the government to listen to me. So the regulations are all on me, and not on the corporations. All the time I see the government do really stupid stuff to me and my friends, and when I try to point out that this won't even accomplish what the government wants I'm just ignored by the government cause I'm a nobody. Hey wait a minute, this is starting to sound like that mercantilism stuff again. Maybe we ought to have another Tea Party."
And make things worse. Change isn't always directed in the right direction... (who guarantees that far right ideologies are a solution - I have serious doubts)

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You say: "These are all valuable programs that take care of people. They are worth their cost. You don't want to stop helping people do you? You're likely to be helped too."
Nobody with a correct understanding of society would formulate it like this. Its not about being helped out of something or in something. Its more about indirectly profiting from an ordered and peaceful society. An ordered and peaceful society is a corner stone for economic success.

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The Tea Party says: "All this debt is a weight on the economy. Same with the taxes. We wouldn't need so much help if you'd just go away and leave us alone."
Say only those who have more than enough and cannot look further than they can see (and thanks to short sightedness thats not very far).

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
You say: "It's the rich who shall pay. You don't need to pay."
Actually that sounds more like a tea party line to demonish the concept of a shared burden. They like to paint things in black and white. Ideally everyone should contribute to the system according to how much he/she benefited from it and his/her capability to contribute. How this is exactly done in fair and competitive as well as socially healthy way is a matter of debate though.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
The Tea Party says: "Why should the rich pay? I'm not willing to spend more money for these programs because I don't think they're worth it. Why should I force somebody else to pay for something that I wouldn't pay money for? I don't remember Jesus saying 'Do unto others as you'd have done unto you- unless he's a rich man, then feel free to screw him over'"
As far as I know, the tea party has no sound logic nor any competence to decide such societal matters. There is a difference between constructive criticism and outright obstructionism and selfrightous ideology.

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You say: "The poor will suffer. Didn't Jesus say to help the poor?"
Why do tea party supporters always talk about Jesus. I mean, that basically tells you a lot about their mind set.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
The Tea Party says: "You don't know jack sh-t about being poor. I've been poor, and life was hard. Why should life be easy? Man up and work hard. Yeah I know people have bad luck. I've had some myself, which is why I always try to help out when I meet someone who's down on his luck. But that doesn't mean I should take somebody else's money and give it to the poor. That's stealing.
Instead you prefer a much higher crime rate and never before seen gang activity. A peaceful and oderly society, who needs it really? That this might cost the Haves (the opposite of Have-Nots) more in the end ... maybe they want the USA to be more like South Africa? (it would serve them right)

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I share what I have with the poor. And besides, the government sucks at helping the poor. It wastes massive amounts of money, forces people to jump through all these stupid hoops that don't even make sense all the time.
Actually the government is the most effective means to spread this money in the society. They do not actually incinerate the money (it goes somewhere - most often to people who are not super rich and therefore effectively contributing to the service oriented economy)

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Sometimes it even forces them to do bad things to get the money. I'd hate to live like that myself, the government has taken all their freedom and independence away. The government has had 50+ years of fighting the war on poverty and just f--ked it all to h-ll.
And how does it help when the tea party actually makes the system worse? Just because you can name a problem, doesn't mean you have a sound solution.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
It don't even seem to get that marriage is the most important thing to helping the poor, and that making marriage all about love and feelings (ie gay marriage) is just terrible.
when I hear such trash talking about minorities... anyway, everyone is entitled to his/her own (sometimes deluded) oppinions.

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Marriage needs to be about duty and commitments (ie man provides for wife and kids). Stop f--king with stuff you don't understand. Stay away from me. Stop helping me, you're just making things worse."
Its impossible to help people with such a mindset. Typically they are not people you can reason with. They value ideology over common sense and rationality.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
It's the same motivations as the Boston Tea Party. You say: "These government policies will benefit you, you ought to support them."
Actually it would be nice if there was constructive criticism, but there is just obstructionism and cheap/stupid populism.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
The Tea Party says: "I don't care how much money it puts in my pocket, I have to do what the government says to get it, so it's not free at all. Chains made of gold are still chains, and I won't sell my birthright of liberty for a mess of pottage."
If it weren't mostly oppurtonists, that make things worse in their misguided belief that makes them think they actually make things better for themselves...

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
That's the heart of it right there. The Tea Party is made up of people who value their economic independence more than they do their economic bottom line.
That was funny

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Now maybe you think that's all foolish shortsightedness.
Yes... I am pretty sure it is.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Or that the Tea Party has fundamentally misunderstood your intentions.
Worse... they do not really understand anything.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Or maybe that the government is corrupt and incompetent like the Tea Party says, but that the alternative is worse. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to disagree.
The whole ideolgy of this party is a primary reason though.

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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
But don't get lazy and accuse people of racism and fantasy about ordering people around when that just isn't the case.
I must admit no matter what you say, I trust my knowledge of human nature to agree with Vexx on this matter. There may be exceptions, but for many (more than just a minority) of the tea party supporters it is certainly true.
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Old 2011-07-30, 22:24   Link #15274
ganbaru
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Six killed in China's Xinjiang after explosions
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76U0AD20110731
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Two men wielding knives attacked a truck driver and then a crowd of people following two explosions in China's far west, killing six people before one attacker was killed and the other captured, government-run media reported Sunday
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Old 2011-07-30, 22:50   Link #15275
MeoTwister5
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To clarify my comment on the noblesse oblige, I preferred it because it worked if you were willing to disregard the self-righteous moralism that came with it because it worked, and it kept local communities working/operating. Even if the elite placed themselves in a plane of existence above and beyond the peasantry, at least they were involved enough to keep the peasant world afloat.

The noblesse oblige of these days is an even greater corruption of that self-righteousness now as Vexx says, where the elite force the rest of humanity to abide by their rules and their rules alone. They now believe in a philosophy of absolute lordship now, where their noblesse oblige is to lord themselves over the rest of the people and are "obligated" to "rule" than to "support".
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Old 2011-07-30, 23:07   Link #15276
Ithekro
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Interestingly enough, most American fiction makes it seem like order is bad.
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Old 2011-07-30, 23:36   Link #15277
solomon
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I mean I admire the bootstrap mentality.

Generally it's just good practice to live by, but I think sometimes we think we invented such a mentality and that no one else lives by it.

What's more it's easier to do the bootstraps when you could work in a factory for good money or college didn't require to sell your organs just to pay for books. It's too expensive these days for a lot of things.

Some times people do need help and welfare keeps them from dying in the streets or hospital beds at any rate. I'm worried about just dismantaling of such programs leaving a large amount of people to fend for themselves in some social darwinist nightmare.
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Old 2011-07-30, 23:48   Link #15278
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Old 2011-07-31, 00:23   Link #15279
Ithekro
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Well one thing we can see here is there is a vast difference in opinion about how things work and what should be done. So it is no different than on Capitol Hill. It is all a matter of perspective. What one person sees is not what another person sees....and for that reason, we are Human. For if we all saw things the same...what would be the point?
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Old 2011-07-31, 00:51   Link #15280
Sugetsu
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Forgive me to be so blunt and bold, but anyone who agrees with the tea party is completely out of touch with reality. The core belief of the tea party is the privatization of every asset. They believe that businesses can take care of all human needs in better than than any government can. This belief is completely deluded, while it is ok to make a business out of many goods and services in society, it is not ok to make a business out of essential goods and services, because the need for profit will always overwrite the concern for society's well being.

Why did the US suffer the big depression in the 1930s and again in 2008? Simple, profit was more important than ethics. Regulations are codes of ethics; but we all know that ethics and profit do not mix.

Why do we incarcerate so many people in the US more than anywhere else in the world? Simple, the prison system is being privatized.

Why is the level of education system failing for minorities and poor white Americans? Simple, money isn't being channeled into public education and schools are being privatized at an increasing rate.

Why is the infrastructure of the country crumbling and staying outdated? Simple, American construction companies are making a killing in developing countries where hiring workers is way cheaper and does not require benefits.

Why are more than 50 million people uninsured? Simple, the healthcare system is private and the drug industries make record profits every year in the US.

I could go on and on...

It is ok to have a business as long as profit doesn't get in the way of human development. The fact that there are people who embrace the beliefs of the tea party worries me a lot because this shows how individualistic and egocentric we are becoming.

Edit: Since we are talking about safety nets and the role of government in the system allow me to link a video about Norway, which will make my rant above much more clearer. (Yes, yes, Michael Moore is the director so time to freak out!)


Last edited by Sugetsu; 2011-07-31 at 01:16.
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