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Old 2011-08-13, 03:04   Link #15741
Vexx
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Its little different than the Medicare Part D fiasco during the Bush administration that just handed millions of dollars to insurance companies capitalizing on the "donut hole" of prescription support for the elderly. Many patients might as well have been mugged and their wallets stolen. Over and over my pharmacist wife has to counsel people who have to choose between losing everything or just dying to keep their family from destitution. She *hates* the current system which screws everyone - medical team, patients, etc and extracts fatal amounts of money out of healthcare and into the pockets of a few predatory parasites.

The same lobbies were at play with the 2010 health act here hijacking both sides of the aisle.
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Old 2011-08-13, 03:13   Link #15742
synaesthetic
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Don't remind me... I spent a year-long stint doing customer service for one of those Part D companies. Pretty much every day I went home feeling like a horrible person after a day of denying prior authorizations and screwing old folks out of their money.

I hated it so much I busted my ass and did the best I could, just to get promoted to help desk so all I had to do was help other CSRs who couldn't figure out how to use Medicare's obtuse/ancient database.

Rather unamusingly, I was fired from the job for a medical issue.

*facedesk*
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Old 2011-08-13, 05:51   Link #15743
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Kids-for-cash judge setenced to 28 years in prison
Quote:
A former Pennsylvania juvenile court judge was sentenced on Thursday to 28 years in prison for accepting payment to send juveniles to a for-profit detention facility in a scandal dubbed "kids for cash,".

Former Luzerne County Juvenile Court Judge Mark Ciavarella, 61, accepted nearly $1 million from a developer who built the detention facility, prosecutors said.

Under the "kids for cash" scheme, thousands of juveniles were shipped to the private center on minor or questionable charges by Ciavarella and another former judge, Michael Conahan, according to juvenile advocates.
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Old 2011-08-13, 06:11   Link #15744
DonQuigleone
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Why doesn't the US just copy the NHS? Or the French system?

Not hard if you just copy someone else, and use the other countries results as a benchmark for demanding costs from providers...
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Old 2011-08-13, 07:40   Link #15745
Bri
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Why doesn't the US just copy the NHS? Or the French system?

Not hard if you just copy someone else, and use the other countries results as a benchmark for demanding costs from providers...
You'd have to change the entire health care system not just the insurance model. Don't think that is feasable, given the private nature of the US health system and the general aversion against government involvement. I'm not sure if costs could be controlled at all. The US market also differs as it is used by pharmaceutical companies and hospitals to launch new medication and treatments, patients pay a premium for having acces to the newest care first.

Don't forget that while the UK and French systems provide on average better care for less costs, the US system still provides the best care at the high end, assuming you can afford it. People with a high income and ditto insurance would lose out if you replace the current system.
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Old 2011-08-13, 12:58   Link #15746
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As Britain begins to weigh the costs of the rioting of recent days and ponder measures to prevent a recurrence, the government of Prime Minister David Cameron put forward on Friday a new way of punishing the looters and vandals who rampaged through many of the country’s cities and towns: kick them and their families out of their government-subsidized homes.

If carried out on the scale Mr. Cameron and his ministers have proposed, the measure would probably be the most punitive of the sanctions that they have said would be considered in response to the worst civil disorder in a generation. More than 10 million Britons, about one in six, live in public housing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/wo...itain.html?hpw

Seriously how is that a good thing that 1/6 people in the entire country live in public housing?
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Old 2011-08-13, 13:02   Link #15747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
You'd have to change the entire health care system not just the insurance model. Don't think that is feasable, given the private nature of the US health system and the general aversion against government involvement. I'm not sure if costs could be controlled at all. The US market also differs as it is used by pharmaceutical companies and hospitals to launch new medication and treatments, patients pay a premium for having acces to the newest care first.

Don't forget that while the UK and French systems provide on average better care for less costs, the US system still provides the best care at the high end, assuming you can afford it. People with a high income and ditto insurance would lose out if you replace the current system.
I don't think it'd be so hard if they just said "we're copying these guys". And when they sell it to the public they can point at the real statistics, rather then illusory ones they've just made up.
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Old 2011-08-13, 13:15   Link #15748
Vexx
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Ah, but you don't know the unceasing barrage of nonsense fed Americans about what a bunch of communists and socialists Europe is. The ones profiting from the status quo do not want to change even as the bus goes careening into the ravine. They're committing amazing amounts of money (which shows just how much more they profit by the current parasitical arrangement even though its killing the host).
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Old 2011-08-13, 13:17   Link #15749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Ah, but you don't know the unceasing barrage of nonsense fed Americans about what a bunch of communists and socialists Europe is. The ones profiting from the status quo do not want to change even as the bus goes careening into the ravine.
they are also a plane ride over to their villa in Europe, SA and Asia when the bus goes over the cliff. None of them has to stick around to pick up the pieces.
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Old 2011-08-13, 14:21   Link #15750
flying ^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/appeals-cou...171829777.html

not related... but here's one that layed another smackdown on 0bama & dems

that makes it two in the same day (Aug 12)!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...xBJ_story.html
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Old 2011-08-13, 14:42   Link #15751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Ah, but you don't know the unceasing barrage of nonsense fed Americans about what a bunch of communists and socialists Europe is. The ones profiting from the status quo do not want to change even as the bus goes careening into the ravine. They're committing amazing amounts of money (which shows just how much more they profit by the current parasitical arrangement even though its killing the host).
Which - in my opinion - is the main flaw of the American political system: The publicly sanctioned corruption (lobbyism). Combine that with a winner-takes-it-all system so that outsider have essentially no chance, and there is no reason whatsoever for any senator/house representative to sacrifice their own reelection chances, party affiliation be damned. In other words, corporations can buy their own politicians and successfully block any meaningful reform (see what happened to the healthcare bill for reference). Shower the disillusioned masses with a venomous mix of American exceptionalist masturbation, "socialist Europe is dying" BS and "everyone is corrupt" stories, then no significant political countermovement can establish itself.

The way things work now, America is no republic anymore, but merely a corrupt corporatist oligarchy. See the "US Elections 2012" thread for several deeply saddening accounts of what's essentially people who have given up on political participation (for an understandable reason though). The way things are going, I think that all that's needed for some major social riots would be a Tea Party sponsored president realizing merely a quarter of their plans...
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:05   Link #15752
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If what you say would actually happen... I don't know what I'd do. Run away to Canada, maybe. I don't just have myself to think of anymore. I have a partner who is riddled with neurological disorders and constant (but controlled by medication) pain, and I can't just throw my life away by picking up a rifle and going teabagger-hunting.
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:10   Link #15753
flying ^
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
The way things are going, I think that all that's needed for some major social riots would be a Tea Party sponsored president realizing merely a quarter of their plans...
... wanna see good riots in the US? Just give it a little time.
the moneys running short and soon some "diverse" people wont receive their monthly "assistance" and all hell will break loose.
i'm wagering cities Atlanta will kick it off... or maybe Chicago, Oakland etc, they're already wound real tight


p.s. the last good riot the U.S.A. ever had was in Los Angeles in '92... during a fairly anti gun era and that left a few Koreans to defend their own shops with guns

Last edited by flying ^; 2011-08-13 at 15:23.
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:23   Link #15754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
not related... but here's one that layed another smackdown on 0bama & dems

that makes it two in the same day (Aug 12)!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...xBJ_story.html
I swear, Americans thought they were electing the next JFK and instead we got Mr. MaGoo.



Barry's driving the country right off a cliff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Which - in my opinion - is the main flaw of the American political system: The publicly sanctioned corruption (lobbyism). Combine that with a winner-takes-it-all system so that outsider have essentially no chance, and there is no reason whatsoever for any senator/house representative to sacrifice their own reelection chances, party affiliation be damned. In other words, corporations can buy their own politicians and successfully block any meaningful reform (see what happened to the healthcare bill for reference). Shower the disillusioned masses with a venomous mix of American exceptionalist masturbation, "socialist Europe is dying" BS and "everyone is corrupt" stories, then no significant political countermovement can establish itself.

The way things work now, America is no republic anymore, but merely a corrupt corporatist oligarchy. See the "US Elections 2012" thread for several deeply saddening accounts of what's essentially people who have given up on political participation (for an understandable reason though). The way things are going, I think that all that's needed for some major social riots would be a Tea Party sponsored president realizing merely a quarter of their plans...
Mentar, the US has been a corporate oligharchy since the Act of 1871.
That act created a government for the District of Columbia and the coropration of the United States.
SCOTUS has used the 14th Amendment to "incorporate" the Bill of Rights upon the several states in various decisions over the years.
Thus anyone born in one of the several states of the Union, is not simply a citizen of that state, but rather a "United States" citizen, and by extension a citizen of the corporation known as the United States.
Gotta admit it was a clever way of turning us into serfs.

Now as for civil unrest in the US, the only thing that's going to cause rioting here is when the fiat dollar finally hyperinflates.
Then people's savings will be reduced to nearly nothing and people will not tolerate that.
The Koch and co. T-Party will be insignificant to that event and may even prosper under those conditions.
Europeans need to understand that Americans are staunch individualists for the most part and that only the heavily urbanized areas have a collectivist mindset.
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:46   Link #15755
synaesthetic
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"Staunch individualists" can go live individually in the fucking Pacific Ocean. No man is an island. If you're human and you're alive and you don't live alone in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, you are part of a community.

These "staunch individualists" need to take some fucking responsibility for what they've gained from the community. I'm sure most of them make use of government police, fire, education, infrastructure, farm subsidies, water purification, electricity... need I go on?

"Staunch individualist" to me means "SCREW YOU, I GOT MINE!"
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Old 2011-08-13, 15:52   Link #15756
GundamFan0083
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"Staunch individualists" can go live individually in the fucking Pacific Ocean. No man is an island. If you're human and you're alive and you don't live alone in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, you are part of a community.

These "staunch individualists" need to take some fucking responsibility for what they've gained from the community. I'm sure most of them make use of government police, fire, education, infrastructure, farm subsidies, water purification, electricity... need I go on?

"Staunch individualist" to me means "SCREW YOU, I GOT MINE!"
Oh feisty.

Out here it means "my rights end where your rights begin, and your rights end where my rights begin."

It's one thing to cooperate for mutual protection and convience, it's an entirely different thing when one is being forced to conform to the collective whole.

That's the difference between individualism and collectivism.
Individualists want to "live and let live" while collectivists want to shove their own ideals down other people's throats.
Look at the Koch Bros. T-Party.
They're not individualists.
They want to alter the country into their way of thinking and being, that's collectivism.
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Old 2011-08-13, 16:04   Link #15757
synaesthetic
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See, I could even sort of get behind that kind of thinking, but the problem with libertarianism is it's very much like communism. Looks great on paper, fails in reality. Both extreme systems would only work if the governed population were robots.

Only in a perfect world would voluntaryism actually work. I wish it would! I really do! If we were all intelligent enough to voluntarily contribute to the whole, if we were all smart enough to have divested ourselves of all the avarice and spite... shit, this world would be amazing. There'd be no war. No crime. No hate. No discrimination.

But that's not reality. Reality is most people are good, and other people are assholes, and in order to keep everything from going to hell for the good people, we have to force the assholes to stop being assholes.
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Old 2011-08-13, 16:38   Link #15758
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See, I could even sort of get behind that kind of thinking, but the problem with libertarianism is it's very much like communism. Looks great on paper, fails in reality. Both extreme systems would only work if the governed population were robots.

Only in a perfect world would voluntaryism actually work. I wish it would! I really do! If we were all intelligent enough to voluntarily contribute to the whole, if we were all smart enough to have divested ourselves of all the avarice and spite... shit, this world would be amazing. There'd be no war. No crime. No hate. No discrimination.

But that's not reality. Reality is most people are good, and other people are assholes, and in order to keep everything from going to hell for the good people, we have to force the assholes to stop being assholes.

I can agree with that.
I suppose that's why I see myself as a Classical Liberal rather than a Libertarian.
I understand we have to have government in charge of certain areas of life for mutual aid and benefit.
As you said, there are too many assholes.
The problem we as Americans face is that the role of government has been turned on its head.
We have a private banking cartel in control of our money, private international arms dealers making our weapons, private international companies in charge of our energy, private international companies in charge of our food production, etc. et nausium, all under the blanket excuse that "private companies can do a better job".
When in reality, these private interests now have access to taxpayer money which in turn they use to bribe, lobby, and buy congressmen and women, and I'll go so far as to say the president as well.

Due to that situation, our government is now telling us what kinds of light bulbs we can buy, telling us they can take our land for whatever reason they feel like, telling us we need to accept being groped and X-rayed to travel, need a friggin license for just about everything, pay higher taxes to support "programs" which usually funnel money into the special interests, watch what we say so as not to offend anyone, need a license to grow a garden (SB 510), need a CDL to drive a farm tractor, etc. etc., none of that was meant to be the role of government in this country in the first place.
Government is supposed to work FOR us, not AGAINST us.

We need to get government out of the lives of our citizens and into the shaddy practices and crooked bank-books of corporate monopolies.
Few people remember that up until the 1960s all small arms used by the Federal Armed forces were made a Springfield Armory in Massachusetts.
That was the oldest government arsenal in the USA.
However, due to lobbying by Colt, Armalite, and their inside man Robert McNamarra, the old government armory that litterally made most of the small arms for our armed forces was shut down.

The myth is that "private business can do it better."
Bullshit.
The quality of the old M14 (the last gun made by Springfield Armory) is vastly superior to the SP1 (the original M16).
To the detriment of our soldiers, but to the creation of amazing profits for Colt and subsequent private military contractors.

The privatization of the USA's military production was spurred on by Vannevar Bush (GW's grandfather) in the 1940s and the military industrial complex he helped create has its tendrils in nearly every aspect of our lives.
It doesn't matter whether collectivization is socialist, fascist, theocratic, or corporatist.
It's still using force to make the citizens conform to the beliefs, life style, and business model that one group makes for everyone else.
It's not an agreed upon set of rules for society by all citizens in a Democratic fashion.
The Americanist ideal is about living in a cooperative society where a constitution prevents the rights of individuals being squashed by special interest groups while at the same time allowing the citizenry as a whole to use a democratic system to create the necessary means of fulfilling the duties of government.
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Old 2011-08-13, 16:50   Link #15759
synaesthetic
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Offtopic-ish: I used to own the semi-auto variant M14... it was a beautiful piece of machinery. I was very sad to sell it for grocery money...
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Old 2011-08-13, 17:01   Link #15760
GundamFan0083
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NO!
That is very sad Syn, and I mean that.
No one in the USA should have to sell something of that quality just to be able to eat.
It's not right.
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