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Old 2011-08-19, 14:04   Link #15921
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
There is too much equality if it is mandate by the government. I am not talking about material things like clothes or cars. I am not sure if Jinto is thinking of the same thing but when i think of too much equality i am thinking Harrison Bergerson where the concept of equality goes too far.
And if the government officials were also to live under exactly the same circumstances as the rest would that also be too much equality?

I think people are still affected by Reagan's legacy who once said "Government is not part of the solution, it is part of the problem".
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Old 2011-08-19, 17:30   Link #15922
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Regarding Equality, I think Gilbert and Sullivan said it best:

"When you have nothing else to wear,
But cloth of gold and satins rare
For cloth of gold you cease to care
Up goes the price of shoddy!"

and

"In short whoever you may be
To this conclusion you'll agree
When everyone is somebody,
Then no one's anybody!"

If you look at it from a purely lifestyle perspective(not economic) and you exclude the very poorest and very richest, their isn't a huge difference in quality of life.
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Old 2011-08-19, 17:39   Link #15923
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Too much equality? That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that there has to be social stratification in order for society to be balanced? Equality is balance.
I don't want to go too much into details here. But absolute equality on material and non-material levels means totale Gleichschaltung. A completely homogenous society is from an evolutionary point of view the worst thing that can happen. Because success in evolution means diversity not one dimensionality. But thats just my personal oppinion. I know from your postings in the Zeitgeist thread that you see things a little bit different... but its useless to debate unprovable concepts.

remark: evolution is to be understood as a broad concept here. Its not merely the natural evolution of things but also scientific and educational evolution.
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Old 2011-08-19, 17:42   Link #15924
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
That's the thing, we are pushed to be "somebody". In reality to nature we are just a little speck of dust swimming floating in the winds of life. But us humans are disconnected from reality, we make up our own little worlds and we believe we are something special that lives separated from nature. Like I said before, you gotta thank the monetary system for encouraging wealth stratification.

The only thing that counts from us humans is that we live in accordance with the laws of nature and stop destroying the planet or the planet itself will squash us as if we were some annoying bug.

When I am talking equality is about basic ethical concepts. You want to have the same opportunities as everyone else's. You are entitled to food, a roof over your head, education, a family. Your freedoms end when someone's else freedoms begin, the same goes for the environment you live in.

If you want an homogeneous society you would have to clone everyone. Human beings as well as animals and plans all have their own individuality. But that individuality does not mean that you are set apart from nature.
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Old 2011-08-19, 20:24   Link #15925
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
That's the thing, we are pushed to be "somebody". In reality to nature we are just a little speck of dust swimming floating in the winds of life. But us humans are disconnected from reality, we make up our own little worlds and we believe we are something special that lives separated from nature. Like I said before, you gotta thank the monetary system for encouraging wealth stratification.
Only when we think about what others think about us.

What we want to think about is entirely our choice, why must we let other people's judgement force us to change our way and outlook of life? These people who force their ideas upon others for the sake of "conformity" are simply dogs who need to be collared and led around by someone.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-08-19, 22:10   Link #15926
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Forcing anybody to do or be something will never lead to anything positive. Force is suppression, and suppression creates pressure which always leads to an explosion. My beliefs or your beliefs don't matter to nature, the only thing nature cares about is its preservation. As long as your beliefs have something in common with the laws of nature you will be fine.

You can think whatever you want and shape those thoughts into reality so long as those actions do not obstruct the free will of others or harm the environment.

What I am talking about is not a new found religion or about the Zeitgeist movement, it is just plain logical thinking. We are interconnected to nature and to our fellow human beings. Therefore, what you do onto others will have direct or indirect repercussions on you. When we divide ourselves into smaller factions or distribute the resources of this planet unequally, the whole planet suffers as a consequence.

Therefore, circling back to my original point, thinking that material inequality between human beings is perfectly normal is not in accordance with the laws of nature. In fact, it is a delusion created by the market system and our inflated egos. As long as we keep thinking that way, due to logical reasons, we will continue to suffer the way we do.

We all live in a world of fiction at one level or another, specially those who are in power, the powerful are by far the most deluded people in this world, they think they are above nature when they are just as insignificant as the rest of us. Unfortunately, those in power will always attempt to the medicate the symptoms instead of the root causes. One of the core beliefs of those who hold power or desire it, without exception, is believing that inequality is a perfectly normal state of nature. Why else do you think that Washington sucks in the first place?
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Old 2011-08-19, 22:34   Link #15927
Decagon
This was meaningless
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Not on this site no more.
Age: 27
I'd say that all these factions are indicative of the 'laws of nature'. Out in the wild do you ever see any other social creature create equal groups or equally distribute their food or resources between different social groups or even in the same group? You would be hard pressed to find human families who treat their cousins the same way they treat their siblings, or neighbors the way they treat their cousins. Because we are social we create social inequity. Social interaction itself is the giving and taking of trust (or deception) and ideas (or stupidity).
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Old 2011-08-19, 22:34   Link #15928
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
There has always been inequalities in human societies, there's always an in group and an outgroup.

But with the territory you're going into you should probably try reading Civilization and it's Discontents (Freud)
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Old 2011-08-19, 22:36   Link #15929
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
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Material inequality is normal. Physical resources are finite. They can never be anything but finite, unless you fancy violating the laws of physics. Only a strict imposed order or law could force material equality among a given population of humans.

I do hope that one day we progress past the point where it needs to be imposed, though. Wouldn't it be nice if we could simply come to complete consensus on all issues like the geth?

I guess what Legion said is true--when you communicate at the speed of light, these things don't really take much time!
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Old 2011-08-19, 22:43   Link #15930
ganbaru
books-eater youkai
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
Jobs, travel, biscuits: costs squeezed at Europe's banks
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77H00320110818
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Old 2011-08-20, 01:28   Link #15931
killer3000ad
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 31
Hamas ends truce with Israel
Quote:
In a move that could portend an increase in violence between Israelis and Palestinians, the Hamas military wing announced it was ending a de facto two-year truce with Israel early Saturday.

A statement from the Izzedine al Qassam brigades was broadcast on a Hamas-run radio station, announcing: "There is no truce with the Israeli occupation under the continuation of committing massacres against the Palestinian people without justification."

"We call for groups to join in calling against the crimes of the Israeli occupation," the statement continued.
Egypt recalls ambassador from Israel
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Old 2011-08-20, 03:01   Link #15932
Ithekro
Warning
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
And just about a month short of the Palastnian bid for statedom in the United Nations.

Sort of sad in a way. I wonder if the West Bank will join the fight or disown Hamas in favor of becoming a real country.
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Old 2011-08-20, 03:37   Link #15933
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer3000ad View Post
Goodness.....fucking retards. As if oil prices are not high enough already......
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-08-20, 04:14   Link #15934
don_Durandal
Zetsubou gunsou
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Goodness.....fucking retards. As if oil prices are not high enough already......
It's a bit hard to care about other countries' oil prices when you're living in a de-facto giant prison camp with a 40% unemployment rate, 70% of the population under the poverty rate and an economy asphyxiated by a blockade(and limited to Hamas-controlled black market).
Those missile stories are just conveniently shifting the attention off the real problems.
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Old 2011-08-20, 04:28   Link #15935
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Jobs, travel, biscuits: costs squeezed at Europe's banks
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...77H00320110818
Seems like certain service sectors have employment limits too. I had to laugh at one of the reasonings for higher spending on HR. They had to increase the base salary because they were under fire for paying high bonuses. Those crooks never learned that they might have earned got paid too much in general (I mean, the lower hierarchy accountant cannot be blamed here, those guys are not exceptionally well paid - but the so called elites, who really cost the banks a lot of money... these guys often say they are merit paid - if you consider they often earn 4-20 times the money of a small accountant you really have to wonder if it is physically possible to achieve the merit to be paid like that )
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Old 2011-08-20, 04:44   Link #15936
bladeofdarkness
Um-Shmum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
It's a bit hard to care about other countries' oil prices when you're living in a de-facto giant prison camp with a 40% unemployment rate, 70% of the population under the poverty rate and an economy asphyxiated by a blockade(and limited to Hamas-controlled black market).
Those missile stories are just conveniently shifting the attention off the real problems.
the border between Egypt and Gaza is open for the movement of trades and people.
which kinda negates those arguments.
anyone who doesn't want to live in "a de-facto giant prison camp" or is unhappy with his unemployment rate and poverty situation due to the the "economy asphyxiated by a blockade" can simply leave.

Gaza is a hornets nest of terrorist groups, each of whom has its own agenda and all of whom seeking to establish their own "power" by launching attacks at Israel (which also tends to get Hamas in trouble).
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Old 2011-08-20, 04:47   Link #15937
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Forcing anybody to do or be something will never lead to anything positive. Force is suppression, and suppression creates pressure which always leads to an explosion. My beliefs or your beliefs don't matter to nature, the only thing nature cares about is its preservation. As long as your beliefs have something in common with the laws of nature you will be fine.

You can think whatever you want and shape those thoughts into reality so long as those actions do not obstruct the free will of others or harm the environment.

What I am talking about is not a new found religion or about the Zeitgeist movement, it is just plain logical thinking. We are interconnected to nature and to our fellow human beings. Therefore, what you do onto others will have direct or indirect repercussions on you. When we divide ourselves into smaller factions or distribute the resources of this planet unequally, the whole planet suffers as a consequence.

Therefore, circling back to my original point, thinking that material inequality between human beings is perfectly normal is not in accordance with the laws of nature. In fact, it is a delusion created by the market system and our inflated egos. As long as we keep thinking that way, due to logical reasons, we will continue to suffer the way we do.

We all live in a world of fiction at one level or another, specially those who are in power, the powerful are by far the most deluded people in this world, they think they are above nature when they are just as insignificant as the rest of us. Unfortunately, those in power will always attempt to the medicate the symptoms instead of the root causes. One of the core beliefs of those who hold power or desire it, without exception, is believing that inequality is a perfectly normal state of nature. Why else do you think that Washington sucks in the first place?
That's ridiculous. Nature is impersonal. The "planet" didn't care when we were hunter gatherers, it doesn't care now.

There are consequences to our actions, that's all. But we aren't going to get smothered in volcanic ash because we kill all the pandas... or fail to turn to communism.
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Old 2011-08-20, 06:27   Link #15938
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the border between Egypt and Gaza is open for the movement of trades and people.
which kinda negates those arguments.
Indeed, they have an open border onto a gigantic desert. Great trade opportunities.

Quote:
anyone who doesn't want to live in "a de-facto giant prison camp" or is unhappy with his unemployment rate and poverty situation due to the the "economy asphyxiated by a blockade" can simply leave.
Where would they go? Into the Sinai desert?

Quote:
Gaza is a hornets nest of terrorist groups, each of whom has its own agenda and all of whom seeking to establish their own "power" by launching attacks at Israel (which also tends to get Hamas in trouble).
It's a hornets nest of terrorism due to the complete and abject poverty endemic in the zone, largely created by the fact that they have little means to communicate with the outside world and what few commercial operations there were was destroyed by the continued Chaos created by repeated Israeli attacks. In fact the Israeli army is practicing a very cruel form of "collective punishment" on the West Bank on the minority who launch attacks. And these attacks only drive more people to the only group with any capability of defending them: Hamas.

Israel may not have created this problem, but it certainly nurtured it and helped it grow.
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Old 2011-08-20, 06:30   Link #15939
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
anyone who doesn't want to live in "a de-facto giant prison camp" or is unhappy with his unemployment rate and poverty situation due to the the "economy asphyxiated by a blockade" can simply leave.
Is it really that simple to leave without a decent education and the money to travel? I am just asking, because who wants to employ a potential terrorist (thats what you are basically considered to be by employers when you come from that place).

There are places on this planet where typical western opportunities and lifestyles are not an option, people who are born there cannot break free easily.
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Old 2011-08-20, 06:35   Link #15940
Haak
Forever Alone...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Yeah I don't think it's a simple as just 'can simply leave'. I've heard that most in Gaza are between 18 to 40 so atleast half of them would probably need visas. And it's only been less than three months since the border opened. There's probably a lot of factors involved. And even so, they're still not gonna give two shits about how big oil prices are in countries that are still far better off than them.
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