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Old 2007-04-21, 16:35   Link #141
ibreatheanime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I consider Lebrescu a first class hero. He *knew* the risk, did the calculations, and took the sacrifice to "save the future" so to speak. I have total admiration for him and any others who made similar calculations in those few minutes.
I agree that he was a hero, not only had he survived the holocaust many years ago, altough he was 76, he gave his life to save the lives of his students. I pray that there are more heros like him in the world.
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Old 2007-04-21, 19:04   Link #142
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One is that Mr. Lebrescu survived the holocaust only to die in this senseless act of violence
This man deserves utmost respect for what he did. He survived pointless murder in the Holocaust and was killed on Holocaust memorial day, saving his pupils from similar pointless murder. Even though he died in such senseless violence, at least he did so exhibiting bravery and heroism. I can't give enough praise, even though I didn't know him personally or anything.
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Old 2007-04-22, 01:17   Link #143
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Actually... the more information that comes that, the more clear it is that the shooter *was* mentally ill --- but our starved infrastructure, social attitudes toward mental health care, and rules made it too difficult to get him into an institution (won't try to document it all here). It had actually been tried to get him institutionalized... to get counseling... his literary professor had done all sorts of things within legality to get attention on his disturbing behavior.

Also, his family is possibly *more* distraught in that not only have they lost someone they put a LOT of emotional, time, and financial investment in (almost everything they did was to try to get a better life from the rather underclass life they had in Korea).... they've lost him AND they have to deal with the horror that he took so many other wonderful people down. I'm speculating that they also had been like many parents and siblings and practiced some self-denial about his personality and emotional issues, contributing to the feelings of guilt they have.

Just awful to think about...
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Old 2007-04-22, 01:29   Link #144
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I know it would be horrible to be a family member of one of the people killed in the shooting, but think how hard it is for the shooters family. Not only did they lose their child, but also they have to live knowing that he could kill 30+ students in cold blood.
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Old 2007-04-22, 07:17   Link #145
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Isn't that what I just said...?
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Old 2007-04-22, 08:33   Link #146
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But didn't they lost him already, when they completely ignored his mental problems?

(nah I don't know about the family, so I won't dive deeper into this)
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Old 2007-04-22, 20:20   Link #147
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I seriously don't know why they didn't throw that asshole out of the university for writing garbage like that and having him see counselors out the wazoo until everyone says he's clear.

Poor parents, though.

And @ that chinese guy that hates Japanese: sure he might hate them, but at least he's not going around killing them. And I bet he's not going to hate every Japanese person he sees, either, after he's interacted with them.
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Old 2007-04-22, 20:39   Link #148
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The worst part of all this is that the media is idolizing the shooter.

This is how it all happens. Someone who's having a rough time at school, who doesn't have any friends and wants attention, can look just about anywhere ( be it TV, newspapers, the internet, magazines, etc.) and think to themselves, "if I did what so-and-so did, I could get famous, too."

I mean, we put these people on the covers of magazines. It just takes one misguided teen and the cycle repeats itself.

I'm not saying that this is the only motive behind all of these situations, but I think it's a definite factor in these people's choices.
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Old 2007-04-22, 21:01   Link #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Umi View Post
The worst part of all this is that the media is idolizing the shooter.

This is how it all happens. Someone who's having a rough time at school, who doesn't have any friends and wants attention, can look just about anywhere ( be it TV, newspapers, the internet, magazines, etc.) and think to themselves, "if I did what so-and-so did, I could get famous, too."

I mean, we put these people on the covers of magazines. It just takes one misguided teen and the cycle repeats itself.

I'm not saying that this is the only motive behind all of these situations, but I think it's a definite factor in these people's choices.
I totally agree, though I'll expand upon one thing. I would disagree that it be centralized to teens. It doesn't matter what age or what you are. It's how you percieve things that will cause you to think in such a way and act upon it.
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Old 2007-04-22, 22:47   Link #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreatheanime View Post
I know it would be horrible to be a family member of one of the people killed in the shooting, but think how hard it is for the shooters family. Not only did they lose their child, but also they have to live knowing that he could kill 30+ students in cold blood.
I wonder how they can live when everyone knows that you are the family of the guy who did the shooting. The glares and stares that you might get, the embarrassment that you might get.
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Old 2007-04-23, 09:48   Link #151
ibreatheanime
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Originally Posted by Princess_of_Hell View Post
I wonder how they can live when everyone knows that you are the family of the guy who did the shooting. The glares and stares that you might get, the embarrassment that you might get.
Not only would you be embarrassed, you may have to live with the guilt that you raised a child who could kill people. For all we know his parents may feel like it is their fault.
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Old 2007-04-23, 10:25   Link #152
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Ashamed would be the proper word to describe it.
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Friend: "Evidence that you guys are made of epic win." Me: "That wasn't my goal. My goal is chaos, fear and...eggs."
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Old 2007-04-23, 13:16   Link #153
Vexx
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I saw an english-language Korean news article.... the shooter's grandfather was livid, ashamed, and very articulate in denouncing his grandson. An aunt had thought he was just quiet and therefore "gentle" and was just horrified.

The weight must be awful for them, especially since it looks like they were following suggested actions for getting him help. Failure of the system...
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Old 2007-04-23, 14:18   Link #154
ibreatheanime
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Vexx, you often mention faluire of the mental health care system, Though it does have its faults, if a person doesn't want mental health, it is hard for them to get it. The shooter obviously had some issues, but if he didn't get help, and others weren't aware that he needed it, is it really a faluire of the system?
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Old 2007-04-23, 15:10   Link #155
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreatheanime View Post
Vexx, you often mention faluire of the mental health care system, Though it does have its faults, if a person doesn't want mental health, it is hard for them to get it. The shooter obviously had some issues, but if he didn't get help, and others weren't aware that he needed it, is it really a faluire of the system?
Absolutely. I've spent many years in and around the healthcare systems here and have more than a few medical professionals in my family. Mental healthcare has been starved of funding for the last two decades and the public attitude in the US is still very primitive in terms of modern neuroscience (rather like back injuries are still often disbelieved). Its hard for people who *want* mental healthcare to get it. Other people were aware he needed help and tried to get it for him but what he got was minimal. People who could have pressed charges against him for earlier issues (which might have gotten him some help) didn't.

The collision is in the concepts of self-determination and freedom versus the community consensus that someone will eventually hurt themselves and others so do we wait til he does? Its my contention that as long as this sort of healthcare is underfunded and the public attitudes toward mental healthcare remain uneducated, these sorts of things will flower more often than need be.
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Old 2007-04-23, 17:54   Link #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom-Takaya View Post
I totally agree, though I'll expand upon one thing. I would disagree that it be centralized to teens. It doesn't matter what age or what you are. It's how you percieve things that will cause you to think in such a way and act upon it.
True, true.

Obviously, they're not all teens since the VA shooter was in college...

mybad. >w<;;

Although it is also true that most of these cases seem to happen with teenagers. What with all the raging hormones and peer pressure and everything.

And the lack of funding in Mental Care, too.
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Old 2007-04-23, 19:15   Link #157
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The following is something from a person I know who in turn got it from a person he knows and I don't know after that. I don't claim or suggest anything from the things said below. I had to translate it to english and though there was more than I put here, possibilities and such, but I got tired translating.

I simply found it interesting and wondered what you guys think of it though it all initially gave me a slight headache.


Below are some questions that come up based on the facts of the Virginia Tech Massacre.

1. In order for a person to hold a gun in each hand and deliver a precise three shots per victim is a pro. And according to the gun experts itís impossible to kill 32 people with just pistols in a matter of several minutes unless one is a professional.

Seung-Hui Cho is not a college student trained as a military trained professional.

Even soldiers whoíve fired thousands of bullets over decades all claim pistol fires are rather difficult. Those whoíve fired a gun know that the recoil is considerable. And the weight of the bullets themselves is heavy and when added the recoil effect then one has to have a pretty good physique.

But isnít it odd that a person who only just bought a gun within a month or so can shoot like a military trained professional? Isnít there something wrong with that?

2. Emily Hilscher was not his girlfriend and yet despite that Cho went to her dorm building that was separate from his own dorm building and went on a rampage. Emily was revealed not be a target of Choís stalking nor was they known each other whatsoever.

3. Cho received two shots to his chest and one fatal shot to his head.

Typically, there are three common types when a person commits suicide with a gun.

1) A shot aimed right above the ear.
2) A shot aimed through the mouth.
3) A shot aimed below the chin.

Typically, a person shoots through the face or head when committing a suicide with a gun and yet a bullet was lodged at the back of Choís skull. The police didnít open fire so who shot the last two shots at Cho? Can a person committing suicide fire a shot to the head once and the last two shots to the chest?

The people who died in that Norris Hall almost all of them were shot three times. But even, Cho was shot once in the head and twice in the chest.

In another broadcast in another army related incident they scientifically proved that typically people who commit suicide shoot themselves through the head or chest but after any one of those shots it was incredibly difficult to shoot anywhere else additionally. And yet, a person committing suicide was shot once in the head and twice in the chest.

Strange isnít it? Why was Cho shot three times just like everyone else in that Norris Hall?

A shot to the head, and two shots to the chest is the work of a professionally trained killer.

4. No one actually witnessed the suicide.

No-one witnessed the suicide, Cho was killed in the room where the murderer was killed, and one of the survivors who played dead witnessed the murderer ran outside. One of the witnesses said the killerís eyes werenít AsianÖ and yet itís hard to understand why that testimony was dismissed.

Whatís going on?

5. No-one actually saw Choís face.

The witnesses (?) testimonies claim all they saw was an Asian (?) who wore (sun)glasses at about 180cm. The witnesses said the face was covered so it couldnít be identified. The killer was over 180cm and pretty well built.

But Choís height is relatively short.

A California newspaper following a survivorís testimony said that the killer had a mask on his face, held two guns in his hand along with ammunition slung on his shoulderÖ but within a day overturned that announcement. Why?

6. The gun dealer who sold the guns used to kill was only described as an Asian but there is no other evidence. The shop was said to not even have a CCTV.

7. The gun dealer said Cho purchased 50 bullets.

But there were 62 people who were killed or wounded. The doctors who performed the autopsies said all the victims killed had no less than 3 shots. All dead received 3 shots minimum. At least 66 bullets were needed for those who were killed and another minimum 60 bullets for the wounded. That means at least 200 rounds were necessary.

8. A professional killer who had the serial numbers on the weapons was filed off, lined his victims in a line, and yet left the receipt for the guns in his bag. And a receipt that was over a month old? A killer who was smart enough to file off the serial numbers of his guns still carried around the receipt over a month old?

A killer who took the time to get rid of the serial numbers on his gun, something that took some decent time and effort, didnít get rid of a receipt that could be destroyed in an instant? Itís so pathetic itís almost funny.

Serial numbers of a gun is carved on the gun itself and rather difficult to erase. Which means the serial numbers were erased prior to the massacre.

And yet, a receipt that could be destroyed in a matter of moments was in a bag plain for everyone to see? What kind of nonsense is this?

9. According to a witness the killer never had a carried or even had a bag with him in person. And yet, Cho had a bag with him. Is he the real killer?

10. The videos sent by Cho was said to have took more than one person to film. The New York Times suggested the possibility of another suspect after seeing the film.

11. The police claimed that the pistols used were semiautomatic and therefore repeated fire was possible but all the gunshots heard through the videos were that of a single shot pistol.

Think about it, when shooting with single shot pistols the bullets would quickly run out for the guns since each gun typically has 10~15 bullets.

But about 32 people were killed in the Norris Hall and each person had 3 shots each. Of course the magazines for the guns need to be replaced when the bullets run out. But it impossible to replace them with just one hand. Think of how hard it would be trying to hold the people at bay while trying to reload.

Is this realistically possible?

12. Cho was said to have no friends but some days before the massacre Cho was witnessed to be seen hanging around with 3 Americans males.

13. If Cho was really the killer he should have went straight to the Norris Hall since he was angry with the social injustices he railed against.

But why did Cho went from his dorm, passed another dorm, and went over to the dorm he first targeted? The two killed there were neither his stalking victims nor his girlfriends. And why did he after the first incident went to go shoot his videos, walked around the campus to send his mail, and then go to Norris Hall for the final rampage?

The police found his identification with Choís body from the start in his bag. Then why did they delay the announcement of the fact to begin with? Even the motivation behind the crime was initially blamed on infatuation then when it didnít match was instead blamed on his dissatisfaction on the social injustices.

14. There are conflicts between the testimonies. Within a close proximity some said they heard the gunshots clearly while others said they didnít hear the gunshots.

15. The pictures of Cho sent to NBC and Choís usual pictures are different at the eyebrows, eyes, and face shape. Some say itís because he took off the (sun)glasses but the eyebrows and shapes are clearly different. The testimonies of the family members of Cho are needed to verify the differences if there are any.


16. Cho sent the package at the Virginia post office at 9:01 am. The event occurrence 10 minutes. It takes 10 minutes from post office to school bar car.

17. Cho was found at Norris Hall where the 28 victims were killed. The lone survivor who had lain still on the ground said that Cho killed 28 people and ran off somewhere, but Cho was found in the Hall along with the other casualties.

18. The school lecture hall, the dorms, the school hallways, and the entrance to the school building, the gun shopÖ why hasnít there been any CCTV of Cho whatsoever?

The fact that no CCTV was shown is one of the oddest things about this incident.
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Old 2007-04-23, 20:02   Link #158
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Whoever wrote that went into the details of things. I haven't even seen any article of Cho getting two shot in the chest.

The medical examiners stated the fact that he died from a gunshot wound to the temple. Nothing about two shot to the chest. Nor anything about the other 32 victims receiving three shot each.

Even how many rounds were sold or the time it takes to travel within the campus.
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Old 2007-04-23, 20:39   Link #159
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Welll........ I'd recommend to Whitewings that he stop carrying urban myth nonsense forward

Item 1) pardon me, but bullshit, almost any idiot can be self-train to do that with a few visits to the range. Almost any article on tactical combat talks about the '3-shot' rule. I wouldn't know any gun experts that would spout the "pro" nonsense. My wife weighs 95lbs and I can guarantee she can put 3 slugs into someone where she wants at 10 paces easily with a 9mm .... so the rest of that paragraph is iffy.

Item 3) I've seen not one news report that has mentioned that. source please? Even so... I can certainly imagine someone managing to shoot themeselves twice in the chest and a final shot to the head.
"scientifically proved" ???????? "typically"????

4&5) Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable in high stress situations. Next?

6) CCTVs are fairly rare in the US. It isn't Britain. Most of the places you mention wouldn't typically have a cctv system as they cost money.

7) Reference on the gun dealer quote please? I've not seen that. The shooter had multiple clips and ammo which could have been purchased at the range or from several gun dealers. Why buy all your bullets at one spot and attract attention?

8) Where does the author keep getting this "professional killer" nonsense? Any idiot can file off a serial number in about a minute with a sanding drill. Looking at what you cite, I'd say we're looking at someone who watched too many movies and kept changing his mind about what he wanted to do (we've seen his video, eh?)

9) More witnesses in the heat of battle... (refers to psychological studies of witness inaccuracy and constructed memory).

10) Can we say "tripod"?

11) Okay.. this is getting a bit stupid. A SEMI-AUTOMATIC handgun fires ONE SHOT at a time. It does not and cannot be turned into a FULL AUTOMATIC gun. This information is common knowledge to anyone who has taken 30 seconds to study guns.

Also ... he had multiple clips each pre-loaded. He also knew how to speedload (I can reload a clip with 10 bullets in about 20 seconds, faster with a loader strip). Everyone is cowering under their desks - by the time they might think of charging, he's in gear again. No one has practiced for this situation (which I think is a failure of education) so they don't know what to do or they keep thinking the police are about to arrive.

12) Again.. cite please?

13) "should have gone"?????

Okay.. I think I'm done.... and again, CCTV is not routine in the US.

I suspect this nonsense was written by someone so unfamiliar with what they write (be it guns, college campuses, video cameras, witness psychology, etc) that it makes my head hurt. Its like a conspiracy theory with no purpose.
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Old 2007-04-23, 20:48   Link #160
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I never said you should take this seriously. I just found this interesting to look at enough to show it to you guys. If you have a problem then that's your problem Vexx.
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