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Old 2011-09-12, 08:49   Link #16481
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I must say I'm surprised that Sept 11 memorials got virtually no mention in AnimeSuki. Am I missing something, or do people in general not care any more about the event, 10 years on?

In the meantime, history comes alive in another part of the world.

Battle of Marathon brought back to life in re-enactment
The world did not really change.. that was political meme bullshit used to justify all kinds of strategic disasters and civil liberty erosions.

Also... frankly, the American public was *beaten to death* with the articles, news, documentaries, and "omg, we can fill the 24/7 with this instead of what is going on NOW" for the last two weeks. Probably most of us Americans came here to escape the blanketing.

The only thing I found personally useful was our public broadcast radio has an ongoing feature called Storycorp where people can tell their individual stories. The focus on Sunday was on survivors and relatives telling individual stories of people on that day at the WTC. The stories were heroic, heartbreaking, admissions of utter dumb luck and the difference of seconds. The hardest for me to deal with was listening to widows describe talking to their loved ones on cell phones til the instant of death. OTOH, they did get to say good bye unlike many.

Its why I refuse to dignify terrorists with the word "warrior" ... they're criminals, psychopaths, and cruelly manipulative of their own as well as their targets. We should have stuck to treating them like the banal thugs they are rather than pumping their ego with a stupid "war on...."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace
In fact, you're more likely to find people who would argue that things have only gotten worse.
This.. in spades.
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Old 2011-09-12, 09:01   Link #16482
MakubeX2
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There was only 2 times in history that America was attacked on it's soil.

Pearl Habour and 9/11.

Pearl Habour usher in the Golden Age of Pax Americanna. 9/11 marks it's decline.

So what went wrong ?
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Old 2011-09-12, 09:13   Link #16483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
utter dumb luck
This actually happened to one of my mom's friends. He was supposed to be on the flight that crashed into the second tower, but he just had a bad feeling about it and decided not to get on the flight a couple hours (or the previous night) before it took off. He still has the ticket.

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Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
So what went wrong ?
We made a lot of money on the first one before entering the war. We spent a lot of money on the second one after "ending" the war.
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Old 2011-09-12, 09:38   Link #16484
murikibishii
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A guy at an anime blog I read makes a great point in his 9/11 post about how history teaches us that militant Muslims have always hated America, even when we'd just gained our independence. I had no idea it went back that far until I read the facts he laid out.
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Old 2011-09-12, 10:14   Link #16485
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Greek default jitters hammer French banks, euro
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...78B24R20110912
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Old 2011-09-12, 10:16   Link #16486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Britain is not America. Many british people disagree intensely with US policies. Look at what happened over the Iraq War. Not popular.
Don't recall it being too popular over here, either. That's not even my point though, even with all the differences, the US and the UK are as similar countries as you'll find and the UK was involved in the Middle East as well regardless of popular sentiment. Anyways it's not really a fact or anything, it's just my personal viewpoint that it's hypocritical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I must say I'm surprised that Sept 11 memorials got virtually no mention in AnimeSuki. Am I missing something, or do people in general not care any more about the event, 10 years on?
Very intense media coverage; think most get their fill from that.
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Old 2011-09-12, 10:24   Link #16487
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Greek default jitters hammer French banks, euro
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...78B24R20110912
I would be really interested in how many Greek papers French banks and their Greek subsidies managed to transfer to the ECB since the beginning of the crisis last year. You don't find any numbers in the press, everything is kept a secret as usual within the EU. Holland, Austria, Germany and Finland will have to pay twice. Though Finland was clever enough to sell their vote for Greek guarantees. And Greece may even default before the German parliament can decide on wasting even more money on September 29th. Should this crisis extend to all of the Euro zone I can already image everyone pointing fingers at Germany, like Greeks already pointing at Germany for their problems, just because Germany didn't write blank checks fast enough.
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Old 2011-09-12, 11:18   Link #16488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Frankly, the American public was *beaten to death* with the articles, news, documentaries, and "omg, we can fill the 24/7 with this instead of what is going on NOW" for the last two weeks. Probably most of us Americans came here to escape the blanketing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Very intense media coverage; think most get their fill from that.
Given that, in the end, it's very much an America-centric event, I didn't want to be the one to highlight the anniversary. I was personally curious to see the kind of response that would appear here. The lack of response is, to me, a story in itself.

Good points certainly about the widespread coverage on mainstream media. It's something I try to pay attention to whenever I post in this thread — what's the point of bringing attention to headline stories that are already being splashed across papers and screens worldwide?

So, for my part, I try to surface the odd story or two from my neck of the woods that would not otherwise appear in other countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The only thing I found personally useful was our public broadcast radio has an ongoing feature called Storycorp where people can tell their individual stories. The focus on Sunday was on survivors and relatives telling individual stories of people on that day at the WTC. The stories were heroic, heartbreaking, admissions of utter dumb luck and the difference of seconds. The hardest for me to deal with was listening to widows describe talking to their loved ones on cell phones til the instant of death. OTOH, they did get to say good bye unlike many.
Yup. As every writer knows, it's always the human angle that draws the readers.

Japan quake, six months on: Mother uses digger in search for daughter

Sept 11 was, after all, not just an annual anniversary, but also another monthly milestone for a people still putting their lives together.
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Old 2011-09-12, 11:43   Link #16489
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Sectarian clashes in Indonesia leave 5 dead, 150 injured
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Indonesia sent security forces to an eastern region after gangs of Muslims and Christians armed with rocks and machetes clashed in violence that left five people dead and more than 150 injured, officials said Monday.

The violence broke out in the Maluku provincial capital of Ambon on Sunday after rumors spread that a Muslim motorcycle taxi driver who died in a traffic accident had been killed and tortured by Christians, said Capt. Marinus Djati, the Ambon traffic police chief.
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Old 2011-09-12, 14:12   Link #16490
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
There was only 2 times in history that America was attacked on it's soil.

Pearl Habour and 9/11.
That isn't true though. The British invaded Washington in the war of 1812 for example. There's also incidents like this. The US has been attacked before.

Quote:
Pearl Habour usher in the Golden Age of Pax Americanna. 9/11 marks it's decline.

So what went wrong ?
Nothing went wrong. There was no Pax Americanna to begin with. As for a decline, I'd say it really isn't evident you're in a decline until after the fact. What seems a decline at the time can reverse itself. Conversely, what seems like business as usual can turn out to be the beginning of the end. Then you get places like China which had several declines and then periods of rebuilding.
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Old 2011-09-12, 14:35   Link #16491
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http://news.yahoo.com/convictions-af...133610727.html

The Georgia Supreme Court has upheld the murder convictions and life prison sentences given to an Atlanta vegan couple who were charged with allowing their baby to starve to death.
......
Authorities said the child died of bronchopneumonia due to extreme malnourishment or starvation. Police said his diet consisted only of soy milk and apple juice.
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Old 2011-09-12, 15:00   Link #16492
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/convictions-af...133610727.html

The Georgia Supreme Court has upheld the murder convictions and life prison sentences given to an Atlanta vegan couple who were charged with allowing their baby to starve to death.
......
Authorities said the child died of bronchopneumonia due to extreme malnourishment or starvation. Police said his diet consisted only of soy milk and apple juice.
Unfortunately, I've run into more than a few vegans that don't actually do the research and are malnourished themselves (much less a kid). Its not that veganism is impossible or evil... its that quite a few adherents (at least in the US) are just damned stupid.
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Old 2011-09-12, 15:01   Link #16493
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Too many go vegan for the wrong reasons...political even sometimes.
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Old 2011-09-12, 15:03   Link #16494
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murikibishii View Post
A guy at an anime blog I read makes a great point in his 9/11 post about how history teaches us that militant Muslims have always hated America, even when we'd just gained our independence. I had no idea it went back that far until I read the facts he laid out.
I'm not going to comment on whether the Quran actually condones piracy or whether the Algerian ambassador quoted is simply full of it (I'm suspecting some selective interpretation to support imperialism-like practices), but I don't see any substantial link between 18th/early 19th century Barbary Corsairs and modern Islamic militism. The poster's narrow focus prevents him seeing that the forces driving the piracy and terrorism are very different.

The Barbary Corsairs would of course be driven by a profit motive. Unlike American slave populations, slave populations in muslim countries did not grow rapidly, because the Quran encourages slaveholders to free their slaves as an act of charity. Which of course ends up driving demand for new slaves. American ships would have been one of many targets.

Modern muslim militants have an axe to grind against America due to American support for disliked factions or corrupt regimes. Let's take a look at some of the incidents mentioned:

Storming of American embassy in Iran: a response to America allowing the disposed Shah (a corrupt and much hated dictator the US had previously supported) into the US for medical treatment.
Beiruit barracks bombing: occurred shortly after the US Navy provided fire support for a faction in the Lebanese Civil War. The commander of the peacekeeping unit that was targeted actually predicted that his unit might be the target of such a reprisal, since it ended the US's image as a neutral party in that war.

9/11 itself is a bit more complicated. Bin Laden mentioned the bombing of Beirut by Israel (an American ally) as a formative moment, however, his big vendetta was against the Saudi government, who he considered massively corrupt. And he also considered breaking American economic supremacy essential to ending corrupt regimes in Saudi Arabia and other muslim countries.

I'd probably cite Bin Laden's hatred of the Saudi government as his primary reason for singling out the US, as the conduct of countries like Russia and India (both also hated by muslim militants) towards their muslim populations has been much worse than anything the US has been directly involved in.

I mention this not to try and vindicate Islamic militarism, but because I think that understanding its driving forces is essential to preventing its spread. The strategy the US pursued after 9/11 has been a mistake in this regard, as it played directly into the narrative that muslim extremists use to generate hate towards the US. The US's support for certain (often corrupt) governments in the muslim world has often seen as a self interested move - one of Bin Laden's talking points was that the Saudi government was giving America its oil for a pittance compared to its real worth (the math involved was pretty ludicrous, of course). So sending troops into two oil rich countries (Afghanistan is important to several oil pipeline projects) in response to an attack that many muslims see as either the action of a madman or even a false flag operation (Americans are not the only ones who have 9/11 conspiracies, apparently) wasn't good PR by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it played right into the narrative of the world promoted by militant groups.

Some of what I've read suggest it wasn't always this way, with many muslims actually having a favourable opinion of America just after World War II - in large part because America was seen as different from the colonialist European powers. It was only later that the associated between America and corrupt regimes started to take route.

Tl;DR: The piracy phenomenon was driven by profit, modern day hatred of America among muslims by conditions in muslim countries and perceived American involvement in those conditions. There is no 200+ year hatred towards America among muslims.
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Old 2011-09-12, 15:55   Link #16495
Yu Ominae
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Some news on the attack on the Israeli embassy in Egypt.

Quote:

After Attack on Embassy, Egypt Vows a Tougher Stance on Protests
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: September 10, 2011

CAIRO — Acknowledging a credibility crisis after it allowed a mob to invade the Israeli Embassy here, the military-led transitional government said Saturday night that it would exploit a reviled “emergency law” allowing extra-judicial detentions as part of a new crackdown on disruptive protests.
Related

“Egypt is undergoing a real crisis that is threatening its internal and external security,” Osama Heikal, minister of media, said in statement after an emergency meeting of the cabinet with the military council that seized power this year with the ouster of former President Hosni Mubarak. “What happened has damaged Egypt’s image and its international position, and it cannot be condoned.”

The statement marked an abrupt reversal for the military council, which had promised to eliminate the 30-year-old emergency law, a measure allowing indefinite detentions without trial that was considered emblematic of Mr. Mubarak’s authoritarian rule. Its repeal was a signature demand of the revolution.

It is not yet clear how the military government will apply its new declaration — a council of officers has already governed for seven months in suspension of the Constitution, obviating the right to a fair trial, and it has previously warned with little effect of its intolerance of disruptive protests. But the statement appeared to threaten a rollback of Egypt’s new freedoms.

It also underscored the severity of the challenge facing the military-led government as it struggles to restore order to the Egyptian streets without jeopardizing its own tenuous legitimacy. Although it has sometimes surprised protesters with heavy handed force and sent as many as 12,000 civilians to swift military trials, the military council has also sought to avoid confrontation with street protesters or to accommodate their demands in order to preserve its own standing in the eyes of the public.

That strategy proved disastrous Friday night when thousands of protesters attacked the Israeli Embassy. They first methodically demolished a week-old protective wall as Egyptian security forces stood by. A few scaled the building and tore down the Israeli flag, while about two dozen broke into the offices and began tossing binders of documents into the street. And when a battalion of riot police finally began filling the streets with tear gas, the protesters fought back with rocks and Molotov cocktails for most of the night.

Egyptian officials said Saturday that at least two protesters had died from the clashes around the embassy — one from a bullet wound and the other from a heart attack — while as many as 1,200 had been injured and at least 19 arrested. Signaling its new crackdown, the military council said Saturday that all those arrested would be sent to military trials instead of civilian courts.

But at least one protester who had broken into the embassy early Saturday morning said that Egyptian military police had forced him out but then let him go free, raising questions about the consistency of the military’s new crackdown.

Israeli officials, for their part, said Saturday that six members of their staff had been trapped inside the embassy until an early morning rescue by Egyptian commandos. “This went on for 13 hours and there was real concern for the safety and lives of our people,” an Israeli official said. “The mob penetrated the embassy and at the end there was only one wall separating it from six of our people.”

The Israeli ambassador and about 85 diplomats and their family members were evacuated at dawn. Only one diplomat, a deputy ambassador, remained, and he took refuge in the protection of the American Embassy, diplomats familiar with the arrangements said.

Diplomats said allowing the invasion of a foreign embassy was an extraordinary breach of Egypt’s international commitments that immediately raised new security concerns at other embassies around the city. “It has led to a complete loss of credibility in the government internationally from all directions,” a Western diplomat said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the situation.

In addition to attacking the Israeli Embassy, witnesses said, protesters also menaced the nearby embassy of Saudi Arabia, which many Egyptians believe has pushed their own government to avoid setting a precedent by taking retribution against Mr. Mubarak. “Saudi Arabia and Mubarak are one hand,” protesters chanted. (Mr. Mubarak is currently on trial for corruption and conspiring in the killing of protesters earlier this year.)
Related

Mr. Heikal, the Egyptian government spokesman, specifically addressed worries by diplomats, pledging that Egypt would fully uphold all its international commitments.

The violence of the attack on the Israeli Embassy, and another attack that defaced the walls of the Egyptian Interior Ministry, marked a departure from the previously peaceful character of the frequent demonstrations in Cairo’s Tahrir Square since the revolution. The difference reflected in part the changing composition of the crowd, which on Friday was dominated for the first time by hard-core soccer fans, known here as Ultras, who turned out looking for revenge against the police after a melee at a soccer match a few days before.

Egyptian politicians at every level — from the young leaders of the revolution to older liberals and Islamists — spoke out Saturday against the use of violence. A coalition of young organizers of the revolution held a press conference to fault the military council for failing to provide any security throughout the day and evening, only to respond late at night with brutal force.

But many political leaders were also careful to distance themselves from any support for Israel. Among the many objections to Mr. Mubarak was his steadfast devotion to Egypt’s alliance with Israel and the United States even at the price of suppressing popular resentment of Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians. And both aspiring political candidates as well as the ruling military council have been careful to stay on the popular side of those sentiments.

Given the growing public pressure, said Gamal Abdel Gawad, director of the Al Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies, repairing relations with Israel could be “an uphill battle.”

Citing the crisis surrounding the embassy attack, Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, the leader of Egypt's ruling military council and former President Hosni Mubarak's former defense minister, postponed until September 24 his testimony scheduled Sunday before a closed-session of Mr. Mubarak's criminal trial trial.
The link.

Well Bahrain has condemned the attack since it violates the 1961 Vienna Convention ruyles.
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Old 2011-09-12, 16:42   Link #16496
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
I would be really interested in how many Greek papers French banks and their Greek subsidies managed to transfer to the ECB since the beginning of the crisis last year. You don't find any numbers in the press, everything is kept a secret as usual within the EU. Holland, Austria, Germany and Finland will have to pay twice. Though Finland was clever enough to sell their vote for Greek guarantees. And Greece may even default before the German parliament can decide on wasting even more money on September 29th. Should this crisis extend to all of the Euro zone I can already image everyone pointing fingers at Germany, like Greeks already pointing at Germany for their problems, just because Germany didn't write blank checks fast enough.
The banks should have had plenty of time to off load Greek debt or hedge it. A controlled Greek default in itself shouldn't create a European banking crisis anymore. Making a loss on the loans to Greece is a small price to pay to prevent a meltdown of the financial sector.

If Spain and Italy can survice the speculative wave the Eurozone should be fine.

German politicians haven't acted particuarly clever at the start of the crisis when it could have been possible to talk it down. But you can't blame them too much for making mistakes under popular pressure. It's weakness in both the stability pact and the Eurozone's budgetary control and monitoring systems that allowed the previous Greek government to spend beyond its means, the blame for that lies with all the Eurozone members for clinging too much to their own budgetary sovereignty.
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Old 2011-09-12, 17:26   Link #16497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
If Spain and Italy can survice the speculative wave the Eurozone should be fine.
We can only hope for the best. If Italy defaults, France will, too and then everything will fall apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
German politicians haven't acted particuarly clever at the start of the crisis when it could have been possible to talk it down.
I'm not so sure, if that would've been possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
It's weakness in both the stability pact and the Eurozone's budgetary control and monitoring systems that allowed the previous Greek government to spend beyond its means, the blame for that lies with all the Eurozone members for clinging too much to their own budgetary sovereignty.
The problem is that there have been rules, but no one gave a fuck about them. Germany also broke them. Germany should not have given up on the DM, but German politicians didn't listen to the majority of the German people that didn't want the Euro. Euro critics were laughed at, but they forecasted this crisis correctly. And it seems they will also be correct about the Greek default.

And other members giving up budget sovereignty - I doubt it'll work. The PIIGS and France already rule the ECB, why should they govern better given even more power?
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Old 2011-09-12, 18:55   Link #16498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
The problem is that there have been rules, but no one gave a fuck about them. Germany also broke them. Germany should not have given up on the DM, but German politicians didn't listen to the majority of the German people that didn't want the Euro. Euro critics were laughed at, but they forecasted this crisis correctly. And it seems they will also be correct about the Greek default.

And other members giving up budget sovereignty - I doubt it'll work. The PIIGS and France already rule the ECB, why should they govern better given even more power?
It's not really the currency where the problem lies but the risk of contagion of the financial sector. Deregulation in the last 25 years has allowed banks and financial institutions accross Europe to become too big and interconnected. Even if we did not have the Euro now, the IMF and other countries in Europe would still have had to bail out the Greek government. Simply to prevent Greek banks going bankrupt and taking down banks across Europe in their fall, like Lehman Brothers did in the US. For example, Great Brittain is not safe if the contagion spreads to Spain or Italy, having the Pound Sterling won't protect their banks.

This crisis is caused by unresponsible spending by national governments and uncautious lending by banks, whether they used Euros or DM doesn't matter.
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Old 2011-09-12, 19:07   Link #16499
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Don't recall it being too popular over here, either. That's not even my point though, even with all the differences, the US and the UK are as similar countries as you'll find and the UK was involved in the Middle East as well regardless of popular sentiment. Anyways it's not really a fact or anything, it's just my personal viewpoint that it's hypocritical.
The US and Britain are more different then you think, I can think of a lot more countries that share more similarities. Britain and the US are socially, culturally and economically very different. Don't make any assumption. About the only similiarity is that both countries speak English. Besides that, the US is top dog in the world at the moment, so naturally if there's any country people are going to hate on, it's going to be the US.

Who else are Brits going to hate on? The French and Germans? That's a given, but it's as much a "national rivalry" as actual hatred. Besides those countries have not done anything in living memory for Brits to oppose. The United States on the other hand...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Tl;DR: The piracy phenomenon was driven by profit, modern day hatred of America among muslims by conditions in muslim countries and perceived American involvement in those conditions. There is no 200+ year hatred towards America among muslims.
The Barbary Pirates had been ravaging the mediterranean for centuries, and pretty much attacked anyone they liked, except for their "patrons", namely the Ottoman Empire. The Pirates had no axe to grind against the USA, they were just another target. The main reason that the US had such trouble with the Pirates was because they were no longer bound by treaties that Britain had signed with them, and also no longer protected by Britain's extremely large fleet. Consequently their shipping was rendered newly vulnerable, necessitating the war the US fought against them.

What really finally put the piracy to an end was France's conquest of Algiers, along with the rest of north africa coming under the control of European powers.
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Old 2011-09-12, 19:23   Link #16500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
It's not really the currency where the problem lies but the risk of contagion of the financial sector. Deregulation in the last 25 years has allowed banks and financial institutions accross Europe to become too big and interconnected. Even if we did not have the Euro now, the IMF and other countries in Europe would still have had to bail out the Greek government. Simply to prevent Greek banks going bankrupt and taking down banks across Europe in their fall, like Lehman Brothers did in the US. For example, Great Brittain is not safe if the contagion spreads to Spain or Italy, having the Pound Sterling won't protect their banks.

This crisis is caused by unresponsible spending by national governments and uncautious lending by banks, whether they used Euros or DM doesn't matter.
True, but Germany gave away its independence. The ECB is buying papers and Germany can't do anything about it.
I think I disagree about the "have to" part. Germany could have very well decided to let Greece fall. Without the Euro there would be no way for the other countries to transfer papers to the German taxpayer. All Germany has done is delaying the default with taxpayer's money to save foreign banks. Of course there would be damage - but that cannot be avoided anyways. The only thing Germany has done is having increased its own damage. It was a very risky gamble. Too risky in my opinion.
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