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Old 2011-10-24, 08:34   Link #17261
andyjay729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Libya's new rulers declare country liberated

I found this particular paragraph interesting.


Victory for all the freedom fighters!
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Old 2011-10-24, 10:49   Link #17262
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
when the political top dogs makes such declarations, its usually to get support from the PEOPLE for their new rule.
which means that its not the "new boss" thats the problem.
its the employees.
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Old 2011-10-24, 12:05   Link #17263
Haak
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Employees that have been conditioned to violence, mistrust and brutality and accepted as daily life thanks to their old boss. It takes time for that sort of culture to fade away but it can so long as nothing gets in the way. The other factor is the tendacy for people to, when disgusted with one extreme end of the spectrum, to swing all the way to the other extreme end of the specturm because they don't know how to use their brakes. A very common aspect of human nature, but that too can eventually lead to moderation by rocking from one side to the other until finding the center.
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Old 2011-10-24, 12:25   Link #17264
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Employees that have been conditioned to violence, mistrust and brutality and accepted as daily life thanks to their old boss. It takes time for that sort of culture to fade away but it can so long as nothing gets in the way. The other factor is the tendacy for people to, when disgusted with one extreme end of the spectrum, to swing all the way to the other extreme end of the specturm because they don't know how to use their brakes. A very common aspect of human nature, but that too can eventually lead to moderation by rocking from one side to the other until finding the center.
seriously ?
when the new guy in charge tries to gain popularity with the people by declaring "more polygamy for everyone", you're really going to argue that this is about conditioning to brutality or mistrust ?
or was Gaddafi's reign of terror particularly harsh about the "single partner marriage" issue ?
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Old 2011-10-24, 12:29   Link #17265
Haak
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That particular point is more about the second factor. In any case, I really don't think it's that big a problem. At least not enough to say "the new boss is the same as the old boss".
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Old 2011-10-24, 12:35   Link #17266
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That particular point is more about the second factor. In any case, I really don't think it's that big a problem. I mean it could be much worse. That's the least thing I'd be worried about.
except, since the new law means a MAN can marry more then one WOMAN, but a WOMAN can't marry more then one MAN - it means that one of the first big announcements the "new boss" declares only strengthens the idea that man and woman aren't equal.
which shoots the whole "all people are created equal" idea that democracy is suppose to be all about in the foot.

on the whole, this is a showing that the new boss is even LESS progressively minded then the old boss when it comes to gender roles (Gaddafi after all had his own personal Amazon brigade).
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Old 2011-10-24, 12:47   Link #17267
Haak
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
except, since the new law means a MAN can marry more then one WOMAN, but a WOMAN can't marry more then one MAN - it means that one of the first big announcements the "new boss" declares only strengthens the idea that man and woman aren't equal.
which shoots the whole "all people are created equal" idea that democracy is suppose to be all about in the foot.

on the whole, this is a showing that the new boss is even LESS progressively minded then the old boss when it comes to gender roles (Gaddafi after all had his own personal Amazon brigade).
That's a problem in their supposedly democratic system but I doubt there are many supposedly democratic systems that don't suffer from similar problems. It's a signifcant problem yes, but lets actually evaluate how big of a problem it is. It doesn't destroy the possibility of improvement and a fairer democratic system can still be formed. So to say "new boss, same as the old boss" is I think a bit of an exaggeration. i suppose you could say Gaddafi's regime was fairer to women but on the whole I'd say the gains from other places outweigh the costs here by a wide margin.
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Old 2011-10-24, 12:57   Link #17268
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
on the whole I'd say the gains from other places outweigh the costs here by a wide margin.
unless you happen to be one of those few Libyans who was foolish enough to be born with a Y chromosome.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:00   Link #17269
Haak
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...

Why would it be bad for men? And how are men the minority?
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:01   Link #17270
Zakoo
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Well well, so far he only said "polygamy", not polygyny or polyandry, meaning for both sexe.
Well ... though I can feel the "men only" soon.

But whatever, just because they messed up now doesn't mean it will continue, each country, or should I say, each democracy so far had its failure.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:04   Link #17271
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Why would it be bad for men? And how are men the minority?
Ok, you're right, my mistake.
i meant to say WITHOUT a Y chromosome.

my point still stands though.
in a time when the world looks to Libya to see what happens next, they make a declaration that's basically a step backwards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Well well, so far he only said "polygamy", not polygyny or polyandry, meaning for both sexe.
Well ... though I can feel the "men only" soon.

But whatever, just because they messed up now doesn't mean it will continue, each country, or should I say, each democracy so far had its failure.
the original post read :
Quote:
Mr Abdul Jalil said the new Libya would take Islamic law as its foundation. Interest for bank loans would be capped, he said, and restrictions on the number of wives Libyan men could take would be lifted.
a double failure.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:06   Link #17272
Haak
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my point still stands though.
in a time when the world looks to Libya to see what happens next, they make a declaration that's basically a step backwards:
I don't think it does really. I don't think this is enough to outweigh all the gains in freedom from other areas, even for women. If it counts as a step backwards, then Libya has still made several steps forward. In any case my iniital point wasn't that it wsn't a step backwards but rather that this is really human nature and can be resolved in the future.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:08   Link #17273
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't think it does really. I don't think this is enough to outweigh all the gains in freedom from other areas, even for women.
we have yet to see any such gains.
only the future will tell what, if any, are the gains in other areas for everyone concerned.
for now, they are off to a very bad start if their new leaders are to be believed.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:09   Link #17274
Haak
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
we have yet to see any such gains.
only the future will tell what, if any, are the gains for everyone concerned.
for now, they are off to a very bad start if their new leaders are to be believed.
If the new leaders are to be believed then they will also have much more freedom and fair elections.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:10   Link #17275
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
If the new leaders are to be believed then they will also have much more freedom and fair elections.
we'll have to see that before i believe it
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:12   Link #17276
Haak
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"when the political top dogs makes such declarations, its usually to get support from the PEOPLE for their new rule.
which means that its not the "new boss" thats the problem.
its the employees."


Regardless of your skepticism, the employees want more freedom and fair elections. We're taking about the flaws of the people, remember, not of the government.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:15   Link #17277
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Regardless of your skepticism, the employees want more freedom and fair elections.
and apparently a fair number of them also want more polygamy.
you can't take the good without the bad.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:16   Link #17278
Haak
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Like I said, I think the good outweigh the bad.

In any case my initial point wasn't that it wasn't a step backwards (excuse the double negative) but rather that this is really human nature and can be resolved in the future.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:21   Link #17279
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Like I said, I think the good outweigh the bad.

In any case my initial point wasn't that it wsn't a step backwards but rather that this is really human nature and can be resolved in the future.
i was under the impression that it WAS resolved in the PRESENT, or even from a certain view point, the PAST.
"polygamy is wrong, don't do it"
the issue has now being de-resolved (probably not really a word), and it casts a shadow over what should have been a joyful event.

Libya being liberated and Gaddafi dying of natural causes (for a tyrant) should be an unambiguously happy occasion.
but this development is something i find truly disturbing.
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Old 2011-10-24, 13:26   Link #17280
Haak
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i was under the impression that it WAS resolved in the PRESENT, or even from a certain view point, the PAST.
"polygamy is wrong, don't do it"
the issue has now being de-resolved (probably not really a word), and it casts a shadow over what should have been a joyful event.

Libya being liberated and Gaddafi dying of natural causes (for a tyrant) should be an unambiguously happy occasion.
but this development is something i find truly disturbing.
It wasn't really resolved unless you think some things can simply be resolved through brutal repression, which isn't true. The issue was always there. If anything Gaddafi's brutal regime prevented it from being resolved and caused it to fester. The issues were clearly always there.

But yeah, like I said that tends to happen when swinging from one extreme end to the other. What I'm simply saying is that the point on the other side of the specturm they've fallen on is far less extreme than the one that was previously in place and it can be improved upon with time.
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