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Old 2011-11-09, 13:16   Link #17541
Ithekro
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Population counts suggest there are nearly 6 million (more like 5.7 million really) Jews in Israel. There are a little over 5 million (about 5.3 million) Jews in the United States (as it was by far the safest place to go from all the various purges over the last two centuries). No other country can boast a Jewish population of over a million. France is offically the closest with nearly a half million Jews. The total world population is estimated to be about 13.4 million Jews across the entire planet. That's not really all that many people compared to the other 7 BILLION people.

I respect the jew (to a point, I have worked for them and have found some friendly and some to be assholes). I can get along with them in some things. I've found that Israeli born Jews and Arabs do have one thing in common in terms of personality. They love to haggle and argue. Mostly argue. Once you are on their good side, they treat you almost like family, and won't argue with you as much. However the Israeli governement as simpyl worn away the respect they earned due to their back and forth over Palestine. I use to think it was just settlements encroaching in form the Israeli side of the border into the West Bank. That was annoying, but somewhat expected. What I didn't know about was the settlements being built along the Jordan River along the West Bank's border to Jordan. Why would you have settlements away over there? The Israeli border is no were near that place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Settlements2006.jpg

The method is probably the problem. The question becomes, "what does Israel hope to accomplish with this tactic?" They just constrict more and more, and yet claim they want not just peace but also the establishment of a Palestinian state. Just under what terms though. That has been the question. How far can this drag out before such a State is no longer sustainable? How long until Israel is forced to take it from the Palestinians forever?
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2011-11-09 at 15:58.
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Old 2011-11-09, 13:30   Link #17542
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post

I am not surprised you are calling this racist, but you certainly can't deny the great influence of Israel in US foreign policy.
another lobby considered almost as powerful in the U.S is the Armenian lobby (believe it or not).
is anyone going to claim that the Armenians are secretly running U.S politics ?

events in the middle east have very little to do with U.S politics.
especially during this particular presidents term.
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Old 2011-11-09, 13:31   Link #17543
sneaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The question becomes, "what does Israel hope to accomplish with this tactic?"
Expanding their territory, by creating faits accomplis. If a Palestinian state is ever to be created and borders are to be defined, they can say "Israelis live here, so this is part of Israel".

When Germans were expelled from eastern Europe after World War 2, Poles, Russians etc. (were) settled there. After the German reunification and the regain of its sovereignty, decades after World War 2, there was no way that Germany was gonna get its land back. It will be the same for Palestine one day.
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Old 2011-11-09, 13:39   Link #17544
Darkbeat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I respect the jew (to a point, I have worked for them and have found some friendly and some to be assholes). I can get along with them in some things. I've found that Israeli born Jews and Arabs do have one thing in common in terms of personality. They love to haggle and argue. Mostly argue. Once you are on their good side, they treat you almost like family, and won't argue with you as much. However the Israeli governement as simpyl worn away the respect they earned due to their back and forth over Palestine. I use to think it was just settlements encroaching in form the Israeli side of the border into the West Bank. That was annoying, but somewhat expected. What I didn't know about was the settlements being built along the Jordan River along the West Bank's border to Jordan. Why would you have settlements away over there? The Israeli border is no were near that place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Settlements2006.jpg

The method is probably the problem. The question becomes, "what does Israel hope to accomplish with this tactic?" They just constrict more and more, and yet claim they want not just peace but also the establishment of a Palestinian state. Just under what terms though. That has been the question. How far can this drag out before such a State is no longer sustainable? How long until Israel is forced to take it from the Palestinians forever?
You seem to believe the state of Israel uses settlements as some kind of enterprise. Indeed, perhaps originally this was so as after Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt, Menachem Begin was quite keen to promote Jews returning to the wider parts of their ancestral homeland that Israel won in the defensive 6 day war.

Now is an entirely different story. Settlements continue to grow because that's life. There's 500,000 Israeli Jews over the green line and many Israeli arabs there also. These people will continue to get married, have children and live their lives in the place they were brought up. You can't stop that.

Now the Palestinian Authority has gone on record as saying that any future PA state would be Jew-free. That's both racist and quite frankly impossible. It's one thing to complain about the settlements, but the facts on the ground are that they are there and they aren't going anywhere.
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Old 2011-11-09, 13:55   Link #17545
Sugetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Expanding their territory, by creating faits accomplis. If a Palestinian state is ever to be created and borders are to be defined, they can say "Israelis live here, so this is part of Israel".

When Germans were expelled from eastern Europe after World War 2, Poles, Russians etc. (were) settled there. After the German reunification and the regain of its sovereignty, decades after World War 2, there was no way that Germany was gonna get its land back. It will be the same for Palestine one day.
You hit the nail on the head, or at least it looks like this is the final aim. Please watch this video and skip to minute 22:00 which goes into deep detail of the Israeli settlements.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...26245072381061
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:12   Link #17546
Darkbeat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Expanding their territory, by creating faits accomplis. If a Palestinian state is ever to be created and borders are to be defined, they can say "Israelis live here, so this is part of Israel".

When Germans were expelled from eastern Europe after World War 2, Poles, Russians etc. (were) settled there. After the German reunification and the regain of its sovereignty, decades after World War 2, there was no way that Germany was gonna get its land back. It will be the same for Palestine one day.
To be fair, Germany is/was a country. The West Bank was settled (illegally!) prior to 1967 by Jordan but has never had any Palestian state and no pre-determined borders of Palestine exist.

Either which way, it's all history now. The settlers (read: Jews) are there, what now?
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:13   Link #17547
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkbeat View Post
You seem to believe the state of Israel uses settlements as some kind of enterprise. Indeed, perhaps originally this was so as after Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt, Menachem Begin was quite keen to promote Jews returning to the wider parts of their ancestral homeland that Israel won in the defensive 6 day war.

Now is an entirely different story. Settlements continue to grow because that's life. There's 500,000 Israeli Jews over the green line and many Israeli arabs there also. These people will continue to get married, have children and live their lives in the place they were brought up. You can't stop that.

Now the Palestinian Authority has gone on record as saying that any future PA state would be Jew-free. That's both racist and quite frankly impossible. It's one thing to complain about the settlements, but the facts on the ground are that they are there and they aren't going anywhere.
I think that's why Mahmoud Abbas agreed to the principles of land swaps:
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=176148
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:26   Link #17548
Darkbeat
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Land swaps are fine, but you still can't insist there be a total cessation of building (even in areas you have absolutely no interest in obtaining) in the meantime. Settlements account for a tiny portion of the west bank, between 1-3%, it's really not the big issue some people seem hell bent on painting it as.
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:32   Link #17549
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by Darkbeat View Post
Land swaps are fine, but you still can't insist there be a total cessation of building (even in areas you have absolutely no interest in obtaining) in the meantime. Settlements account for a tiny portion of the west bank, between 1-3%, it's really not the big issue some people seem hell bent on painting it as.
Not a big issue??? Did you check my post above?
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:38   Link #17550
bladeofdarkness
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the settlements are NOT a big deal.
as proven when, after they were REMOVED from Gaza, violence only increased by a very large amount.
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:39   Link #17551
sneaker
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Either which way, it's all history now. The settlers (read: Jews) are there, what now?
That was my point, entirely. Israel wants to create this exact situation.
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:41   Link #17552
bladeofdarkness
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That was my point, entirely. Israel wants to create this exact situation.
that IS the exact situation.
its not that Israeli WANTS to create it, but that its already on the ground, and has BEEN the way since before you or I were born.
what are you going to do about it.
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:45   Link #17553
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the settlements are NOT a big deal.
as proven when, after they were REMOVED from Gaza, violence only increased by a very large amount.
They are a big deal. It is simple math: Occupation = War. The American media downplays the Palestinian suffering and Jews and Arabs who are against the occupation.
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:47   Link #17554
sneaker
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
that IS the exact situation.
its not that Israeli WANTS to create it, but that its already on the ground, and has BEEN the way since before you or I were born.
But they are continuing to expand, right? It's not just the past, but also the present and the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
what are you going to do about it.
Nothing, of course. Israel has created and is creating even more facts while the world still discusses the matter over and over again. (fait accompli) That's the point.
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Old 2011-11-09, 14:50   Link #17555
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
They are a big deal. It is simple math: Occupation = War.
you've got it backwards, because its War that led to occupation in this case.
and in the case of Gaza, removing them led to War.

Quote:
The American media downplays the Palestinian suffering and Jews and Arabs who are against the occupation
and i don't know what its like in the American media, but in the Israeli media, the voices that oppose the occupation are OVER-played.
its just that most just ignore them as the delusional children that they are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
But they are continuing to expand, right? It's not just the past, but also the present and the future.
whats the difference.
once its on the ground, what does it matter how many buildings there are.

Quote:
Nothing, of course. Israel has created and is creating even more facts while the world still discusses the matter over and over again. (fait accompli) That's the point
and ... ?
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Old 2011-11-09, 15:09   Link #17556
sneaker
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
whats the difference.
once its on the ground, what does it matter how many buildings there are.
More buildings, more people = even stronger arguments for Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and ... ?
No "ands".
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Old 2011-11-09, 15:11   Link #17557
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
More buildings, more people = even stronger arguments for Israel.
again.
more buildings does NOT lead to more people.
its exactly the other way around.
more people require more buildings.

and this is NOT a stronger argument for Israel so much as a strong argument for birth control.
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Old 2011-11-09, 15:17   Link #17558
sneaker
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
again.
more buildings does NOT lead to more people.
its exactly the other way around.
more people require more buildings.
Really? So if I don't build more buildings, people will just start living in the desert? Or will they move to other cities? There is no strict serial order in that, number of buildings and number of people are connected in some way or the other. Not that it matters....

We should drop this, I don't even know why you quoted me in the first place. My whole argument is in my very first post on this matter, there is nothing more I can add.
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Old 2011-11-09, 15:22   Link #17559
bladeofdarkness
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Really? So if I don't build more buildings, people will just start living in the desert? Or will they move to other cities? There is no strict serial order in that, number of buildings and number of people are connected in some way or the other. Not that it matters....
my point was that the settlements grow as all cities grow.
not as a result of mass migration of people to them, but as a result of people living their lives there.
couples get married, children are born, towns grow.

like Darkbeat pointed out, its not a result of some government conspiracy to annex territories, but a simple fact of life.
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Old 2011-11-09, 15:30   Link #17560
sneaker
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Aaah, now I get your point. I was wondering, what you got so hung up about.
I must admit, that I don't know the settlement situation to an extend where I could specify how much is mere natural growth by birth surplus and what is political expansion. Though I still adhere to my initial point, even if that policy is not followed to this day.
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