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Old 2009-03-11, 22:39   Link #1801
ClockWorkAngel
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That's quite amazing actually, but leave it to the military to weaponize anything they can find. But if we can harness the power of ball lightning, think of the energy we could get from it!
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Old 2009-03-11, 22:49   Link #1802
Vinak
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Err... anti missle defense that has the slim margins of actually working. Anti missile defense will only work if we ever get lazer type weapons to work. But thats just nit picking. I mean really even if you know the trajectory of a missile it is very hard to acurately to shoot it down, not to mention if it was the nuclear variety the fallout radiation would be even worse, hence the stoppage of atmospheric atomic bomb testing. Plus tomhawk missles any one? we may not have missile command systems but for an offensive the US could easily take out a majority of those troops from airstrikes and tacitical naval bombardment.

not to mention that vehicles will soon be fitted with anti rpg units that will decrease the probability of deadly rpg fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

conventional missiles are pretty easy to stop. we just need to work on stopping ICBMS
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Old 2009-03-11, 22:49   Link #1803
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
not to mention if it was the nuclear variety the fallout radiation would be even worse, hence the stoppage of atmospheric atomic bomb testing.
The thing with fallout, it's actually dirt and debris that was lifted into the air by the blast. It's not a part of the bomb itself. If you shoot down a nuclear missile, the only thing you have to worry about is the actual radioactive material of the warhead itself, whic is probably going to be too dispersed to cause much of a problem. There won't be any fallout unless the warhead is successfully detonated.
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Old 2009-03-11, 22:58   Link #1804
sa547
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
The thing with fallout, it's actually dirt and debris that was lifted into the air by the blast. It's not a part of the bomb itself. If you shoot down a nuclear missile, the only thing you have to worry about is the actual radioactive material of the warhead itself, whic is probably going to be too dispersed to cause much of a problem. There won't be any fallout unless the warhead is successfully detonated.
If they think of something less physically damaging to the peninsula, and if they're crazy, they could just open up the border and let loose millions of hungry Northerners into the South and overload its economic structure and resources to the breaking point.

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Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Technology has really changed since the previous Korean and Vietnam wars, we cannot forget this. you simply cannot use strategies from decades past and expect them to work. We have ground penetrating radar, bunker buster bombs, stealth bombers. heck we even have anti missile technology.

not to mention this crazy shit in the works.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/0...-balls-of.html
I'm well-reminded of Red Alert where Tesla coils are used as weapons, but if they actually work, I'll be eating my hat and foreseeing tanks retrofitted with something like an outsized BFG9000.

Otherwise it could be a waste of taxpayer money.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:03   Link #1805
Vinak
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the weapon is currently designed to overload guidance systems in missiles.
it can be adjusted to overload the nervous system in humans to stun or kill.

the articles states the project has been categorized as top secret. kinda scary
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:07   Link #1806
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

conventional missiles are pretty easy to stop. we just need to work on stopping ICBMS
well when dealing with North Korea you have to worry about ICBMs, the radiation from nuclear testing in the atmosphere is still being studied, even if its dispersed that just means that when that radiation comes back down to earth, more of it will be dispersed leaving the earth more radioactive and more dangerous to those that live in those areas. Cancer is already becoming a major killer of people, based on genetics, radiation damaging dna, and the methylation of dna during mitosis or meoisis will further cause more mutations. This kind of background radiation is far more dangerous than just having one potent source because with one source you just have to increase distance but when the background radiation increases you have nowhere to run.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:09   Link #1807
LeoXiao
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China does what China thinks is in China's interest. If it comes down to a war, supporting North Korea is not in China's interest and China knows this.
I just explained why China would want to defend North Korea. I gave reasons as to how the economy is not everything to China (and with the economy the way it is now, I'd expect that to prove me even more right), and how they still want a buffer state.

I thought about the food issue for awhile, and its true that I made some understatements. Without Chinese supplies, North Korea is screwed in a couple years. However, thinking that an invasion and occupation of North Korea, even w/out nukes, is feasible, is incredibly naive. It's a fact that thousands of pieces of artillery and missiles are pointed at Seoul and every other South Korean city. It's a fact that North Korea has a huge army and an extremely disproportionate amount of weapons and fortifications considering their nation's size. It's a fact that many of their military personnel are hardcore patriots, and that the entire country has been bombarded by all kinds of propaganda for 50 years, which is impossible to avoid, particularly when the nation is completely isolated.
So many people would die if there was a war. And not just North Koreans. If the American people are getting whiny about 4000 dying in Iraq, they'll probably start rioting like crazy when tens of thousands of shell and rockets wipe out the entire 38000 troops stationing near the DMZ, along with Seoul. The South Korean Army would be struggling to feed its sown people, let alone feed North Koreans, while at the same time dealing with the 100,000-man special forces army of the North, and all the resistance they would encounter simply because of 50 years of indoctrination. A quarter of a million people would die? Try in the ballpark of ten times that number for starters. North Korea doesn't need years to fight the South. All they need is enough time to launch missile and fire artillery, and South Korea's already lost a lot of its potential. And this wouldn't be in some African nation that no one particularly cares about. It would be one of the most advanced countries on earth taking the toll, in probably less than a month's time. Once South Korea is in ruins, I'd like to see how the occupation and rebuilding effort (if there is one) is going to go.

I'm sure people understand that a war would be terrible, but you surely cannot compare it to Iraq or any other war that has occurred since... well, the 1st Korean war.

EDIT: Actually, you know what? What the hell do I know? What the hell do any of us know? Nobody knows how much food the North Koreans really have, nobody knows how loyal their people are. We don't know if China will help them or not at all. All we can do is speculate. All of us are probably going to be wrong in some major way.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:23   Link #1808
Nosauz
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communism is falling, the chinese know it, hell the whole world knows it. The social experiment failed and the chinese government is having a hard time dealing with the reality. Actually it would be safe to say that most typical chinese are fed up with the government, and the high amounts of corruption. If you look at the earthquakes in guandong, the only buildings left standing are government buildings whereas schools were the first things to collapse. Fighting a war of people that the chinese are not too particularly fond of is not gonna releive the anger from corruption which has been increasing since the inception of the chinese government after the the warring states era.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:37   Link #1809
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
communism is falling, the chinese know it, hell the whole world knows it. The social experiment failed and the chinese government is having a hard time dealing with the reality. Actually it would be safe to say that most typical chinese are fed up with the government, and the high amounts of corruption. If you look at the earthquakes in guandong, the only buildings left standing are government buildings whereas schools were the first things to collapse. Fighting a war of people that the chinese are not too particularly fond of is not gonna releive the anger from corruption which has been increasing since the inception of the chinese government after the the warring states era.
They dont have to fight it, all they have to do is give the North Koreans food, which they would in the case of war.
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Old 2009-03-11, 23:38   Link #1810
Vinak
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
well when dealing with North Korea you have to worry about ICBMs, the radiation from nuclear testing in the atmosphere is still being studied, even if its dispersed that just means that when that radiation comes back down to earth, more of it will be dispersed leaving the earth more radioactive and more dangerous to those that live in those areas. Cancer is already becoming a major killer of people, based on genetics, radiation damaging dna, and the methylation of dna during mitosis or meoisis will further cause more mutations. This kind of background radiation is far more dangerous than just having one potent source because with one source you just have to increase distance but when the background radiation increases you have nowhere to run.
North Korea doesn't have ICBM's

Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles
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Old 2009-03-12, 06:39   Link #1811
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Slight problem there. The US has had 7 years experience in dealing with an insurgency. When it comes to COIN operations, there's no one better at it than the US is right now.
Note : 26 + 16 + 7 years. You forgot about Vietnam and the Somalian Civil War.

ICBMs are considered sub-orbital weapons, since it moves above the atmosphere before coming down to achieve its range of above 5500km. As for NK's new missile, it should be considered an IRBM (intermediate-range ballistic missile) since it has a range above 3500km (approx 4000km). It can more or less hit central Alaska.

It would be good of Japan shoots down the missile. Kim needs to shut up and take care of his stroke before someone gives him a good buttstroke.
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Old 2009-03-12, 09:51   Link #1812
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Note : 26 + 16 + 7 years. You forgot about Vietnam and the Somalian Civil War.
I didn't forget about them. They're both too long ago to really be considered as experience, especially Vietnam. It ended well before most of the soldiers who'd be fighting were even born. Even Somalia, the US pulled out in the early 90s. most of the soldiers fighting now were little kids back then. Neither was really all that successful either.

The wars in Iraq and Afganistan on the other hand are going on right now. The actual lessons learned are still fresh in the minds of the soldiers who served there. Even if we assume it'd be a completely new force sent in with no combat experience in either nation, the people who trained them will have had that experience and can pass on quite a bit in terms of procedures of what works and what doesn't.
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Old 2009-03-12, 14:11   Link #1813
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/13/wo...ermany.html?hp

“Just make a note of the name: Winnenden,” the posting said. That is the town of the outskirts of Stuttgart in southwestern Germany where Mr. Kretschmer killed 12 people at his former school — all but one female — before shooting dead three more people and killing himself in another town 25 miles away after a gunfight with the police. The officials were speaking to reporters at the local police headquarters in the nearby town of Waiblingen.
The posting, made at 2.46 a.m. on Wednesday — less than seven hours before the shooting began — said: “I am sick of this messy life. Always the same. Everyone makes fun of me. No one recognizes my potential. I am serious.
another loser who can get a date but instead of trying to do something to improve himself decided lash out.
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Old 2009-03-12, 14:24   Link #1814
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
I just explained why China would want to defend North Korea. I gave reasons as to how the economy is not everything to China (and with the economy the way it is now, I'd expect that to prove me even more right), and how they still want a buffer state.

I thought about the food issue for awhile, and its true that I made some understatements. Without Chinese supplies, North Korea is screwed in a couple years. However, thinking that an invasion and occupation of North Korea, even w/out nukes, is feasible, is incredibly naive. It's a fact that thousands of pieces of artillery and missiles are pointed at Seoul and every other South Korean city. It's a fact that North Korea has a huge army and an extremely disproportionate amount of weapons and fortifications considering their nation's size. It's a fact that many of their military personnel are hardcore patriots, and that the entire country has been bombarded by all kinds of propaganda for 50 years, which is impossible to avoid, particularly when the nation is completely isolated.
So many people would die if there was a war. And not just North Koreans. If the American people are getting whiny about 4000 dying in Iraq, they'll probably start rioting like crazy when tens of thousands of shell and rockets wipe out the entire 38000 troops stationing near the DMZ, along with Seoul. The South Korean Army would be struggling to feed its sown people, let alone feed North Koreans, while at the same time dealing with the 100,000-man special forces army of the North, and all the resistance they would encounter simply because of 50 years of indoctrination. A quarter of a million people would die? Try in the ballpark of ten times that number for starters. North Korea doesn't need years to fight the South. All they need is enough time to launch missile and fire artillery, and South Korea's already lost a lot of its potential. And this wouldn't be in some African nation that no one particularly cares about. It would be one of the most advanced countries on earth taking the toll, in probably less than a month's time. Once South Korea is in ruins, I'd like to see how the occupation and rebuilding effort (if there is one) is going to go.

I'm sure people understand that a war would be terrible, but you surely cannot compare it to Iraq or any other war that has occurred since... well, the 1st Korean war.

EDIT: Actually, you know what? What the hell do I know? What the hell do any of us know? Nobody knows how much food the North Koreans really have, nobody knows how loyal their people are. We don't know if China will help them or not at all. All we can do is speculate. All of us are probably going to be wrong in some major way.
Wait. Your scenario, if I understand correctly, is that the North would use artillery and missiles to pound the South which would do nothing about it for a few days (neither would the US), and then the South would launch into a land invasion of the North? Don't you see anything wrong with that picture?

And by the way, the North has 100000 guys it calls "Special Forces". But what is it that makes them so special?

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2009-03-12 at 14:38.
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Old 2009-03-12, 14:35   Link #1815
Xellos-_^
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Wait. Your scenario, if I understand correctly, is that the North would use artillery and missiles to pound the South which would do nothing about it for a few days (neither would the US), and then the South would launch into a land invasion of the North? Don't you see anything wrong with that picture?
obviously he doesn't think the US airforce wouldn't have destroyer every NK artillary position near within the first hour of the war.

Quote:
And by the way, the North has 100000 it calls "Special Forces". But what is it that makes them so special?
they are equip with equipment that is only 30 yrs out of date instead of 40 yrs.
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Old 2009-03-12, 15:27   Link #1816
Vinak
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North Korea would have to somehow mobilize its forces without being noticed and then Rush south into Seoul and use the citizen population as a shield in order to have any kind of chance of winning a war.

Otherwise we'll just see a repeat of the Iraqi war. North Korean Radar and Airbase installations will be the first targets to be bombed. If the North tries to Rush, they will quickly find themselves bombarded with incendiary, and cluster bombs.

Once air superiority has been guaranteed, you will see US ground forces sweep through the nation to take out any remaining forces.

Like i said earlier, you simply cannot use strategies from decades past and expect to win. not to mention use equipment decades old.
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:37   Link #1817
LeoXiao
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
obviously he doesn't think the US airforce wouldn't have destroyer every NK artillary position near within the first hour of the war.


they are equip with equipment that is only 30 yrs out of date instead of 40 yrs.
Actually, the US won't be able to. Neither can South Korea. They will be able to destroy a lot of NK's heavy weapons pretty quickly, but not enough of them to prevent many South Korean cities from being bombarded and losing significant portions of their populations. This is not Iraq where all the enemy tanks are nicely laid out on a flat desert for A-10s to make scrap out of. You can't rely on technology 100% of the time either; lots of it doesn't work if there is bad weather or interference of some kind in the way.

The special forces are special not because of their weapons , but because they have better training than other soldiers, more loyalty, and more to the point, would probably make the best use of the tunnels and the rations which are probably stored inside them to facilitate an insurgent war against the South. The kind of worldview they have would encourage them not to surrender in huge droves like Iraq's Republican Guard did, and instead they would probably try to keep other North Koreans from surrendering.
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:53   Link #1818
Clarste
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That's quite amazing actually, but leave it to the military to weaponize anything they can find. But if we can harness the power of ball lightning, think of the energy we could get from it!
It's pretty hard to imagine what kind of energy we could get out of it, considering we have no idea what it is. And, in all likelihood, it'll take more energy to create than it would emit, regardless of what it actually is. I'm all for studying unknown phenomena, but I wouldn't put any hope whatsoever into any sort of application until we have the slightest clue what the heck it is. It's extremely rare and irreproducible, so for all we know it doesn't actually exist.

On another, did anyone else get the feeling the article was a joke when you got to the PHASER part? "Set your phasers to stun" is a classic Star Trek line, and the fact that they didn't make a joke about that in the article made it seem like deadpan humor.
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Old 2009-03-12, 20:50   Link #1819
Vinak
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Actually, the US won't be able to. Neither can South Korea. They will be able to destroy a lot of NK's heavy weapons pretty quickly, but not enough of them to prevent many South Korean cities from being bombarded and losing significant portions of their populations. This is not Iraq where all the enemy tanks are nicely laid out on a flat desert for A-10s to make scrap out of. You can't rely on technology 100% of the time either; lots of it doesn't work if there is bad weather or interference of some kind in the way.

The special forces are special not because of their weapons , but because they have better training than other soldiers, more loyalty, and more to the point, would probably make the best use of the tunnels and the rations which are probably stored inside them to facilitate an insurgent war against the South. The kind of worldview they have would encourage them not to surrender in huge droves like Iraq's Republican Guard did, and instead they would probably try to keep other North Koreans from surrendering.
Listen, Fixed Artillery installations are very easy to destroy. North Korean mobile artillery is so far outdated I'd hardly call it a threat. While the North Korean Air force would be destroyed before they even get a chance to defend themselves. your super troopers hiding underground will be found with ground penetrating radar and removed with bunker buster bombs.

I really don't understand why you are so fixated on North Korea.

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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
It's pretty hard to imagine what kind of energy we could get out of it, considering we have no idea what it is. And, in all likelihood, it'll take more energy to create than it would emit, regardless of what it actually is. I'm all for studying unknown phenomena, but I wouldn't put any hope whatsoever into any sort of application until we have the slightest clue what the heck it is. It's extremely rare and irreproducible, so for all we know it doesn't actually exist.

On another, did anyone else get the feeling the article was a joke when you got to the PHASER part? "Set your phasers to stun" is a classic Star Trek line, and the fact that they didn't make a joke about that in the article made it seem like deadpan humor.
the phaser part was a joke. cause the weapon in theory can be used to stun a person by overloading the nervous system. or it can be adjusted to essentially fry your nervous system killing you.
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Old 2009-03-12, 20:58   Link #1820
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your super troopers hiding underground will be found with ground penetrating radar and removed with bunker buster bombs.
The most powerful military power on the planet can't find an old man hiding in a cave.
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