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Old 2011-12-12, 06:36   Link #18201
DonQuigleone
Knight Errant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
I find this anti-anglo stuff a bit hard to bear. I feel like I've walked into a Sinn Féin meeting...

I think a key thing to remember is that this is a Eurozone problem. Why should countries with independent currencies have to join such a mechanism?

I can understand why Eurozone economies need further regulation, but not why countries with independent currencies.
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Old 2011-12-12, 06:49   Link #18202
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I find this anti-anglo stuff a bit hard to bear. I feel like I've walked into a Sinn Féin meeting...
Now, now... ^_^;

Quote:
I think a key thing to remember is that this is a Eurozone problem. Why should countries with independent currencies have to join such a mechanism?
Who says that you "have to join"? You don't, and nobody expects that from you. It's only about blocking the Eurozone countries from resolving their problems within the framework of the Lisbon treaty. See Darkbeat's "we don't profit from this" responses for reference.

But I guess we should drop this. I don't feel that anything new or worthwhile is coming out of it.
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Old 2011-12-12, 07:10   Link #18203
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Who says that you "have to join"? You don't, and nobody expects that from you. It's only about blocking the Eurozone countries from resolving their problems within the framework of the Lisbon treaty. See Darkbeat's "we don't profit from this" responses for reference.

But I guess we should drop this. I don't feel that anything new or worthwhile is coming out of it.
Well obviously Ireland has to join (and I certainly don't object to that...).

But Britain blocked it from being an EU mechanism, but not from being a Eurozone mechanism (which is what it should be), because, of course, the UK is not in the Eurozone, and so can't block it.

I think it's important to delineate the two. The Eurozone!=EU. There are countries outside the EU that use the Euro, and countries in the EU that don't use the Euro. I think it's appropriate to limit these financial reforms to countries using the Euro, those who wish to join the Euro in the future, and those who wish to voluntarily join. I don't think countries who are not in the Eurozone should be compelled towards any financial reforms, as those countries can not bring down the Eurozone.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be an EU wide financial reform, but I think the Euro has to be dealt with first. Either way, the Eurozone should be more tightly regulated financially then the EU as a whole. I do also like the idea of the financial services tax that they were proposing, obviously it's Cameron's right to fight it tooth and nail. Every country has it's bugbears. Ireland has it's neutrality, which pretty much means we'll always veto any kind of EU wide army or foreign policy.
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Old 2011-12-12, 07:36   Link #18204
ganbaru
books-eater youkai
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
A few hacker teams do most China-based data theft
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...12-12-06-51-17
Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- As few as 12 different Chinese groups, largely backed or directed by the government there, commit the bulk of the China-based cyberattacks stealing critical data from U.S. companies and government agencies, according to U.S. cybersecurity analysts and experts.
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Old 2011-12-12, 07:42   Link #18205
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
But Britain blocked it from being an EU mechanism, but not from being a Eurozone mechanism (which is what it should be), because, of course, the UK is not in the Eurozone, and so can't block it.
NO. Which part of "no" is difficult to understand? Organizationally, the Eurozone _is_ part of the EU and the Lisbon EU treaty.

Quote:
I think it's important to delineate the two. The Eurozone!=EU. There are countries outside the EU that use the Euro, and countries in the EU that don't use the Euro.
I think I see where your fundamental mistunderstanding is coming from. Yes, the Eurozone is not the EU, _but_ both use the same treaty, namely Lisbon. There is no separate treaty for the Eurozone.

When Cameron vetoed the attempt of the Eurozone countries to embed their required rule changes into the Lisbon treaty, he essentially slammed the door. "You won't fix your problems without our consent, and without giving us the veto we demand". He did NOT - I repeat: NOT - say "do as you please, but only in the Eurozone". If this is the impression that's spread in the British media, it's _wrong_.

Therefore, the 26 countries are now beginning a separate treaty _aside_ of Lisbon. And this is the kicker: They say "fine then, we'll go ahead on our own". Here, Cameron stuttered "but, but... you can't DO that! You can't use European institutions as described in Lisbon for your separate treaty". Merkel and Sarkozy said: "Sure we can. Our lawyers said that there's no problem with that". This slumbering conflict can very well flare up soon. Because depending on the legal outcome of this, it may very well happen that the UK will soon be the only remaining member of Lisbon.
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Old 2011-12-12, 13:12   Link #18206
Xellos-_^
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i think Mentar is a tad too optimistic about the survival of the Euro

Quote:
Grupo Gowex (GOW), a Spanish provider of Wi-Fi wireless services, is moving funds to Germany because it expects Spain to exit the euro. German machinery maker GEA Group AG is setting maximum amounts held at any one bank.

“I don’t trust Spain will remain in the euro zone,” said Jenaro Garcia, founder and chief executive officer of Madrid- based Grupo Gowex, which provides Wi-Fi access in 15 countries. “We moved our cash and deposits to Germany because Spain will come back to the peseta.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...akup-risk.html
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Old 2011-12-12, 14:01   Link #18207
sneaker
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Yes, the cash flow to Germany, Switzerland and other countries deemed "safe havens" is enormous, Germany's TARGET2 credits are increasing by some 60 bn Euro per month, the last time I looked they were already around 460 bn Euro. German, British and even US bonds (who have already been downrated and were short of going bankrupt just a few weeks ago) have very low interest rates at the moment for that reason, too.

About who benefits most from the current bail-outs, aside from the PIIGS themselves, are countries (or its banks) that lent money to the PIIGS, the biggest creditors are:
1. France
2. Germany
3. UK

And the UK has the luck that they are not participating in any bail-outs through the ECB, ESFS etc., so essentially German taxpayers are helping save the UK. I think the UK is in a rather fortunate position, the only thing I'm happy about is that people are currently pointing fingers at them, so we Germans might not have to take all the blame once the house of cards collapses. The UK is currently just a scape goat, just like Germany was when it hesitated to bail out Greece back in 2010. No one today really believes that bailing out earlier would have prevented the crisis (and Germany was never obligated to do any bail-outs and the ECB was not allowed to, when the Euro was created all countries agreed upon never bailing out any member), just like I think these new rules (which are largely already existing rules) will help. Merkel and Sarkozy have not even declared how exactly "deficit sinners" are to be punished - you can't take money from a broke man. Merkel is always talking about "new, stricter rules" in exchange for bail outs and lost sovereignty, while there is one thing we have learned about Europe during this crisis: no one gives a fuck about the rules. The only thing that will remain are having to bail out other countries and having lost sovereignty. With the new ESM mechanism (scheduled for mid 2012) it can get even funnier, because the members are obligated to transfer unlimited amounts of money on request. Giving up on 100% majorities will back fire some day for Germany, I can already see it coming.
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Old 2011-12-12, 16:01   Link #18208
Haak
Haters Gonna Hate
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Age: 23
"Er...can we have that back?":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16150384
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Old 2011-12-12, 16:59   Link #18209
ganbaru
books-eater youkai
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
Two Putin-era Russians seek liberal mantle
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7BB13V20111212
How many time before at least one of them will put in jail ?
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Old 2011-12-12, 17:15   Link #18210
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
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Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Well looks like Iran will be building B2s soon.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-12-12, 17:23   Link #18211
Ithekro
The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Naw. Aside from the superficial appearance of a Flying Wing, the two designs have nothing in common.
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Old 2011-12-12, 17:23   Link #18212
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Two Putin-era Russians seek liberal mantle
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7BB13V20111212
How many time before at least one of them will put in jail ?
or given a cup of tea.
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Old 2011-12-12, 17:35   Link #18213
Mentar
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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Age: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think Mentar is a tad too optimistic about the survival of the Euro
Maybe. I could see some southern states deciding to return to their own national currencies. But not an end of the Euro in itself. Then again, expect stories like these to continue to pop up in anglophile finance media. They've been campaigning against the Euro since day 1 of its inception.
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Old 2011-12-12, 17:42   Link #18214
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Maybe. I could see some southern states deciding to return to their own national currencies. But not an end of the Euro in itself. Then again, expect stories like these to continue to pop up in anglophile finance media. They've been campaigning against the Euro since day 1 of its inception.
the story isn't about talking heads located in US or UK but business owner on the ground in the EU. They are ones who are predicting that some countries (ones they are located in) would leave the Euro. I am not predicting the end of the Euro myself but i am willing to bet that several of the Club Med countries would choose to leave the Euro before the crisis is over.
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Old 2011-12-12, 17:50   Link #18215
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Naw. Aside from the superficial appearance of a Flying Wing, the two designs have nothing in common.
There may be a possibility that Iran might reverse engineer the wing and use them to monitor US bases in the Gulf and assist insurgents in their attacks in Afghaniatan, Kuwait and Iraq. That itself is a tremendous advantage against the US already.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-12-12, 18:15   Link #18216
Kyuu
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 36


Now, how is a cat gonna manage all that?
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Old 2011-12-12, 18:21   Link #18217
sneaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I am not predicting the end of the Euro myself but i am willing to bet that several of the Club Med countries would choose to leave the Euro before the crisis is over.
As long as they are being bailed out, they'd be stupid to leave the Euro during this crisis.
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Old 2011-12-12, 18:38   Link #18218
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Age: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the story isn't about talking heads located in US or UK but business owner on the ground in the EU. They are ones who are predicting that some countries (ones they are located in) would leave the Euro.
But the story is simply about a friggen Wi-Fi ISP getting cold feet, which proves exactly nothing. All you need is search enough, and once again you have a horror story. Why do you think are there never stories about those businesses who have more confidence? If you really think that this is a mere coincidence, I've got a nice bridge to sell you

Quote:
I am not predicting the end of the Euro myself but i am willing to bet that several of the Club Med countries would choose to leave the Euro before the crisis is over.
I could see this for Greece. But Spain? Nah. Spain's fundamentals aren't so bad.
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Old 2011-12-12, 18:39   Link #18219
ganbaru
books-eater youkai
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
or given a cup of tea.
With some polonium or ricin ?
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Old 2011-12-12, 19:28   Link #18220
-Sho-
~Omedetô~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere between heaven and hell !
Funny that Obama claims the US Drone back.
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