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Old 2011-12-12, 20:00   Link #18221
Ithekro
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It is a gesture. They don't believe they will get the drone back.

As for it being reverse engineered. Maybe. But then one would assume we know how to deal with the drones.

Unless they are more stealthy than they looks, it will be about air superiority. Which in most cases the United States can get. Especially since the Iranian Air Force has mostly 1970s and very early 1980s designed aircraft, with the most modern being the MIG-29s, the Mirage F1 and the Grumman F-14 Tomcat. They have been building homebuilt versions of the American F-5 in recent years that looks like a cross between the old F-5 and the F-18.
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Old 2011-12-12, 20:04   Link #18222
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
There may be a possibility that Iran might reverse engineer the wing and use them to monitor US bases in the Gulf and assist insurgents in their attacks in Afghaniatan, Kuwait and Iraq. That itself is a tremendous advantage against the US already.
Though.. knowing what its made of and how it works is still a far cry from being able to *produce* the components or assemble them, provide the support structures (remote control, etc). They ain't magic swords, they're just the tip end of a large combined system
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Old 2011-12-12, 20:13   Link #18223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
NO. Which part of "no" is difficult to understand? Organizationally, the Eurozone _is_ part of the EU and the Lisbon EU treaty.
It's a subset of the EU, but it is not the EU. Laws intended for the Eurozone, should not apply to the EU as a whole.

Quote:
I think I see where your fundamental mistunderstanding is coming from. Yes, the Eurozone is not the EU, _but_ both use the same treaty, namely Lisbon. There is no separate treaty for the Eurozone.
Perhaps that's a flaw with Lisbon then.

Quote:
When Cameron vetoed the attempt of the Eurozone countries to embed their required rule changes into the Lisbon treaty, he essentially slammed the door. "You won't fix your problems without our consent, and without giving us the veto we demand". He did NOT - I repeat: NOT - say "do as you please, but only in the Eurozone". If this is the impression that's spread in the British media, it's _wrong_.
I agree, the laws should not be embedded in Lisbon. Lisbon is a document for the EU, it should instead be embedded into the Eurozone treaty (whatever that is).

Quote:
Therefore, the 26 countries are now beginning a separate treaty _aside_ of Lisbon. And this is the kicker: They say "fine then, we'll go ahead on our own". Here, Cameron stuttered "but, but... you can't DO that! You can't use European institutions as described in Lisbon for your separate treaty". Merkel and Sarkozy said: "Sure we can. Our lawyers said that there's no problem with that". This slumbering conflict can very well flare up soon. Because depending on the legal outcome of this, it may very well happen that the UK will soon be the only remaining member of Lisbon.
They don't want their money going to solve a Eurozone problem. A reasonable point. It should be payed for by the Eurozone.

I think you're seeing deceitful intent on the part of Britain, where there isn't particularly one. Perfidious Albion, and all that. It's within Britain's rights to veto legislation, it's not like they're a tiny island with a population less 1% of the whole EU holding things up. They have a right to not assent if they do not want to. And it's not like the treaty isn't going ahead anyway, so why bother making a fuss? It#s not like they've actually stopped anything.
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Old 2011-12-12, 20:17   Link #18224
Ithekro
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(This is not spoiler content since this is the backstory you get right at the start)

To use an old anime example: in Space Battleship Yamato, the Earth has been fighting the Gamilons for prehaps decades. They have reverse engineered a lot of Gamilon tech and it shows in the space ships they use at the Battle of Pluto. They have Gamilon style ships and weapons. But they are still inferior to the Gamilon originals as the Earth has not been able to replicate the Gamilon power system...the Wave Motion Engine. Either because they don't understand how it works, or they've never manage to capture one fully intact...or the principle of the Warp is beyond them, so they can't even begin to make use of the technology. Because of this the Earth ships weapons are not powerful enough to stand toe to toe with the Gamilon Fleet. Well they are also outnumbered. However this technology has made it so the Earth could at least fight almost at the Gamilon's level. Enough so that the Gamilons got angry enough to wipe out the human race via radioactive planet bombs.

Now the Americans and Iranians are not in this situation. Nor does it seem likely that the Americans will want to take over Iran to the level the Gamilon wanted Earth (I see no reason to want to live in Iran when I can live in California). Nor is reverse engineering a drone likely to give them much of an advantage verses the United States, if things did get out of hand. Come to think of it, that advantage wouldn't even work against Israel, though it might be something against anyone else in the region that is not Russia, China, or India.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2011-12-12 at 21:11.
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:02   Link #18225
Ithekro
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Double post for actual news:

Canada pulls out of Kyoto Protocol
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45645743

Part of the article:
Quote:
Environment Minister Peter Kent said that Canada is invoking its legal right to withdraw and said Kyoto doesn't represent the way forward for Canada or the world.

Canada, joined by Japan and Russia, said last year it will not accept new Kyoto commitments, but withdrawing from the accord is another setback to the treaty concluded with much fanfare in 1997.

The protocol, initially adopted in Kyoto, Japan, in 1997, is aimed at fighting global warming. Canada's previous Liberal government signed the accord but did little to implement it and Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government never embraced it.

"The Kyoto Protocol does not cover the world's largest two emitters, United States and China, and therefore cannot work," Kent said. "It's now clear that Kyoto is not the path forward to a global solution to climate change. If anything it's an impediment."

Kent's announcement comes a day after marathon climate talks wrapped up in the South African port city of Durban.

Negotiators from nearly 200 countries agreed on a deal that sets the world on a path to sign a new climate treaty by 2015 to replace the first Kyoto Protocol, which expires at the end of next year.

Kent said the Durban agreement does represent a path forward. Durban's accord envisions a new treaty with binding targets for all countries to take effect in 2020.
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:30   Link #18226
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Chinese fishermen 'stab South Korean coast guards'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16134647

Quote:
The captain of a Chinese fishing boat has stabbed two South Korean coast guards, killing one and injuring another, officials say.

The clash took place after the boat was stopped for illegal fishing in the Yellow Sea off Korea's Incheon port.

Korean officials seized the vessel and detained nine Chinese crewmen.

A Chinese foreign ministry spokesman said Beijing was trying to clarify details and was willing to work closely with the South Koreans.

Chinese crews are regularly caught fishing in Korean waters. They are usually released after paying a fine.

About 430 Chinese ships have been seized for illegal fishing in the Yellow Sea so far this year, up from 370 last year, according to the coast guard.

Shards of glass
In this incident, the coast guard were able to restrain eight of the Chinese crew members but it was the captain who put up a fight, investigators said.

"The captain of the boat who was in the steering house stabbed two of our coast guard officers with an unidentified weapon," Ahn Sung-Shik, head of the Incheon coast guard investigation department told the AP news agency.

South Korean news reports say that the fishing captain was wielding shards of glass from a broken window when coast guards raided the boat.

South Korea's foreign ministry summoned the Chinese ambassador in Seoul and lodged a protest over the clash. Korean officials have previously pressured Beijing to do more to curb illegal fishing in Korean waters.

But previous attempts to intercept Chinese fishing boats have also ended in violence.

In October the coast guard said it had used tear gas and rubber bullets to subdue Chinese fishermen wielding clubs and shovels.

There have also been a number of incidents involving Chinese sailors and the authorities of other countries.


Last month, the crew of a Chinese fishing boat was briefly detained by Japan for entering its coastal waters.

Similar arrests last year in disputed waters sparked a major diplomatic confrontation between Japan and China.

And in the South China Sea, Chinese vessels have several times angered the authorities of other countries with apparent incursions.

The sea inside South Korea's exclusive economic zone, between China and the West coast of the Korean peninsula is rich in crabs and anchovies.

The BBC's Lucy Williamson in Seoul say that illegal fishing has boomed there over the past year.
In the meantime, turns out that there are quite a few people on the Chinese forums calling for teaching the Korean Coast Guards a "lesson on how to be respectful towards Chinese fishers". At the risk of sounding racist, the self-satisfied Sinocentricism hasn't died yet, and only when it is buried for good can there be true peace in East Asia.
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:41   Link #18227
Ithekro
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Sounds like what father had to do in the canals and rivers of Vietnam during the war. But the US Navy tended to be more than ready to deal with anyone that put up a fight for breaking South Vietnamese laws or aiding the North Vietmanese cause.
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Old 2011-12-13, 01:03   Link #18228
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Quote:
This year the Honduran legislature has taken the first big steps towards the creation of what it called “special development regions”. It has passed a constitutional amendment making them possible and approved a “constitutional statute” that creates their autonomous legal framework. Mauritius has just announced that it will allow its supreme court to hear cases from the new entities (beyond that, in a relic of colonialism, is Britain’s Privy Council, to which the decisions of the island state’s supreme court can be appealed). And on December 6th Porfirio Lobo, the Honduran president, appointed the first members of the “transparency commission”, the body that will oversee the new entities’ integrity.

http://www.economist.com/node/21541392
a interesting experiment.
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Old 2011-12-13, 01:36   Link #18229
Tom Bombadil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Chinese fishermen 'stab South Korean coast guards'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16134647



In the meantime, turns out that there are quite a few people on the Chinese forums calling for teaching the Korean Coast Guards a "lesson on how to be respectful towards Chinese fishers". At the risk of sounding racist, the self-satisfied Sinocentricism hasn't died yet, and only when it is buried for good can there be true peace in East Asia.
Yeah, it is pretty ugly, both the incident itself and the reaction on the internet. The pollution and lack of management of the fishing industry on the Chinese side is finally taking its toll. There is a very simple explanation for fisherman venturing into others EEZs: there is not much fish to be caught near Chinese shores. I agree the Chinese government should do more to put some tap on the unruly fisherman. But I am pretty pessimistic on how much such measures will work unless the fundamentals are changed.

As for the internet reaction, Chinese internet is filled with so called FQ愤青/粪青(angry youth/ sh*t youth). These are usually most loud and noisy bunch. The previous disputes (such as the one with Japan over Diaoyu Dao/senkaku) has the negative effect that some people resort to nationalism whenever there is some incident involving Chinese fisherman and foreign police, regardless of the circumstances. But there are sane voices whichever internet forum you go to. I don't know much of the Korean reaction, but from the Chinese source that I read, there are a few Korean papers calling nasty names to the Chinese fisherman. Most Koreans that I know are pretty patriotic/nationalistic. I doubt there is no hate spewing on the Korean internet. In fact, I suspect there are quite some since they will have some self-rightness(justified to a degree) on their side .

To summarize, yes, it is a tragic incident, and crimes should be punished by law. The Chinese government should consider measures to prevent such incidents from reoccurring. But I don't think that simplify everything down to sino-centralism is going to help any side.
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Old 2011-12-13, 02:17   Link #18230
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Yeah, it is pretty ugly, both the incident itself and the reaction on the internet. The pollution and lack of management of the fishing industry on the Chinese side is finally taking its toll. There is a very simple explanation for fisherman venturing into others EEZs: there is not much fish to be caught near Chinese shores. I agree the Chinese government should do more to put some tap on the unruly fisherman. But I am pretty pessimistic on how much such measures will work unless the fundamentals are changed.

As for the internet reaction, Chinese internet is filled with so called FQ愤青/粪青(angry youth/ sh*t youth). These are usually most loud and noisy bunch. The previous disputes (such as the one with Japan over Diaoyu Dao/senkaku) has the negative effect that some people resort to nationalism whenever there is some incident involving Chinese fisherman and foreign police, regardless of the circumstances. But there are sane voices whichever internet forum you go to. I don't know much of the Korean reaction, but from the Chinese source that I read, there are a few Korean papers calling nasty names to the Chinese fisherman. Most Koreans that I know are pretty patriotic/nationalistic. I doubt there is no hate spewing on the Korean internet. In fact, I suspect there are quite some since they will have some self-rightness(justified to a degree) on their side .

To summarize, yes, it is a tragic incident, and crimes should be punished by law. The Chinese government should consider measures to prevent such incidents from reoccurring. But I don't think that simplify everything down to sino-centralism is going to help any side.
People turn to sino-centricism because of how the Chinese government behaves on the world stage; or at least how the western headlines like to put it : claiming parts of the South China Sea, dumping goods on the market, artificially keeping their currency low, etc.

Even the local born Chinese of where I stay invented degratory terms for them because of how a significant majority carry themselves upon China's economic might. It all starts with the government, if they stop trolling the rest of the world, more likely than not the citizens would follow suit, and so likely would Sinocentricism blames disappear.
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Old 2011-12-13, 03:26   Link #18231
Frenchie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
They don't want their money going to solve a Eurozone problem. A reasonable point. It should be payed for by the Eurozone.
I just wish we had Charles de Gaulle stick for a little while longer and perhaps Britain would have given up on joining, seeing as he vetoed the first two applications of Britain to the EEC (European Economic Community) in 1963 and again in 1967.

If they don't want their money to go towards the EU, then they should never have joined.

Charles de Gaulle and the EEC

Quote:
"Claiming continental European solidarity, de Gaulle again rejected British entry when they next applied to join the community in December 1967 under the Labour leadership of Harold Wilson. During negotiations, de Gaulle chided Britain for relying too much on the Americans, saying that sooner or later they would always do what was in their best interests."
And he was oh so right, except the British actually like playing America's lapdog. I wonder who else is trying to eschew having to comply to certain financial regulations, which Britain says will kill their financial center: 'The City'.. I think it was this little thing called the Dodd-Frank act.. and something about a consumer watchdog..

Oh that's right! The U.S.A.!
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Old 2011-12-13, 07:38   Link #18232
ganbaru
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Iran says Obama should apologize for downed drone
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7BC0R220111213
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Old 2011-12-13, 09:55   Link #18233
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While the EU faces the Euro crisis:

Switzerland enriches itself... by borrowing
Quote:
It's a first in the history of the Confederation. For it's short-term debts, Switzerland is paying a negative interest: those who lend money are impoverishing themselves. And investors are rushing for swiss bonds.

Fritz Zurbrügg, director of the Federal finances administration, has never seen this. Three month ago a federal subscription was launched with a negative interest rate of 1%. Far from deterring investors, this 6 month loan was oversuscribed. The Confederation needed only 600 millions, but investors offered 8.8 billions of francs.

Security at all costs

The explanation is simple. Switzerland is benefiting from its status as a safe haven. Nowaday, no investment is secure. Institutional investors are thus ready to pay an interest to be sure they'll get their money back.

According to Fritz Zurbrügg, Switzerland situation is unique. As the other european countries are facing the reverse situation: rising, if not exploding interest rates. For example, Greece has seen its short term interest rates go past 40%.
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Old 2011-12-13, 09:58   Link #18234
DonQuigleone
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Wow, Switzerland has a gold mine. They should get people to bid against one another. See how low they will go!
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Old 2011-12-13, 10:20   Link #18235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Wow, Switzerland has a gold mine. They should get people to bid against one another. See how low they will go!
Thing is, the value of the Euro has plunged compared to the Swiss Franc. And this is widely considered detrimental to our export oriented economy, as well as our tourism sector.

Originally the Euro was at 1.6 CHF, and for a long time remained above 1.5. With the crisis, it started to plunge, and reached 1.3 one year ago (good timing for my vacation in Paris). With the whole Euro crisis, it almost reached parity in september of this year (1.09), until our central bank decided to put a stop, pegging the Euro at above 1.2 by buying "unlimited" amounts of Euro.

Even then, our economy his currently very concerned by the "Strong Franc", consumers being more focused on retailer not lowering enough the price of european imports (consumer products, foodstuff as well as cars).
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Old 2011-12-13, 10:44   Link #18236
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
It's a subset of the EU, but it is not the EU. Laws intended for the Eurozone, should not apply to the EU as a whole.
The changes to the treaty would only have applied to the Eurozone. That is part of the vagueness surrounding the reporting on the issue. Cameron wanted opt-outs for future fiscal policy in exchange for his support. He needed concessions to keep his support from the Eurosceptic element of conservative party.

The Veto didn't happen because of a difference in the national interests of the UK and the rest of the EU but because a clash of interests regarding party/public support and re-election hopes of the leaders involved that made agreement impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I agree, the laws should not be embedded in Lisbon. Lisbon is a document for the EU, it should instead be embedded into the Eurozone treaty (whatever that is).
The Euro is the official currency of the EU and the ECB is a EU-institution. The Maastricht treaty (1992) laid the foundations of the EMU and all members signed it with the intention to join. The Euro and EU are completely intertwined. That two members and a new entrant haven't got any intention to join in the short term doesn't change that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
They don't want their money going to solve a Eurozone problem. A reasonable point. It should be payed for by the Eurozone.
The Eurozone problem is *not* a currency-crisis but a banking and sovereign debt crisis. UK based financial institutions were just as guilty as the ones in Eurozone countries of providing easy loans to proliferate governments without evaluating the risks properly. They also suffer the same systemic risk in case of a collapse. It's not unreasonable for the UK to contribute to the rescue efforts (which they do in part through the IMF) as their countries' financial system is as much at risk as that of anyone else. The main difference is that the UK can free-ride on the efforts of others as the pound protects them from a debt default.

That is the only reason the markets haven't driving up the interest rates on UK debt like those of Spain and Italy. The BoE can always inflate it's way out of trouble. It is quite fortunate in hindsight for all parties involved that the UK is not part of the Eurozone, as it would have been a prime candidate for a default given the poor state of it's public finances and it's massive financial sector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think you're seeing deceitful intent on the part of Britain, where there isn't particularly one. Perfidious Albion, and all that. It's within Britain's rights to veto legislation, it's not like they're a tiny island with a population less 1% of the whole EU holding things up. They have a right to not assent if they do not want to. And it's not like the treaty isn't going ahead anyway, so why bother making a fuss? It#s not like they've actually stopped anything.
I agree, there is no master plan of any of the parties involved. Just the typical short term thinking so common in politics. What can get problematic is a fight over the use of the EU institutions by the new non-EU treaty in the coming months.
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Old 2011-12-13, 11:35   Link #18237
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Deadly attack rocks central Liege in Belgium

Quote:
A gunman has opened fire in the centre of the Belgian city of Liege, killing at least three people and wounding 75.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:17   Link #18238
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The U.S. is now a dictatorship.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:25   Link #18239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
hyperbolic post is hyperbolic.
the existence of such a bill does not turn an otherwise perfectly democratic nation into a dictatorship.
especially since the guy with the authority to utilize such a bill is still an elected official.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:28   Link #18240
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
hyperbolic post is hyperbolic.
the existence of such a bill does not turn an otherwise perfectly democratic nation into a dictatorship.
especially since the guy with the authority to utilize such a bill is still an elected official.
it is call the slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
where the tea party libertarians, i thought they want less government?
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