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Old 2011-12-27, 14:00   Link #18681
Ithekro
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Maintaining tradition to maintain tradition. Some see it as the only way to keep their culture/religion pure and faithful. Others have other reasons behind doing things. Most whitewashed with tradition and "this is how things are" mentality. Some because they believe they are following "God's" law to the letter (or maybe the intent of the letter). Some are following and trying to get others to follow because they believe it will hasten the coming of utopia (the Messiah). Seeing the lacks ways of other versions of their own or other religions as unpure and false. This causes them to be even more strict, because now they have something to prove. That they are the more pure and correct way.

However in the Ultra-Orthodox Jew case...we are talking about a group that I suppose has traditions going back thousands of years, some from the Exodus (some from before that), and others handed down from after the destruction of the Temple (either the first one or the second one...I'm not sure when they started following some traditions and then others).


Some Christians, while not following all this, do also want them success because they see the UO utopia idea as the coming of Revolations, the ending of the World, and the return of Jesus. Ending with a Utopia for the faithful.

I truly do not know what, if any, ideas Islam claims based on these concepts.
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Old 2011-12-27, 14:57   Link #18682
Darkbeat
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While what Ithekro says is certainly true, there is an element of baiting involved here not being mentioned in the mainstream news.

A lot of news has focused on the mehadrin bus lines in Israel. A good example is the line from Ashdod to Jerusalem. There's a bus every 30 minutes (the 438) that goes the route but also, on the hour, there is a mehadrin bus (the 450) which operates with a voluntary separation of men and women (that aren't married). This is the voluntary choice of both men and women who take this bus, but recently (female) reporters have been intentionally taking the bus and flouting the separation which has stirred trouble.

This strikes me as an attack on free choice and democracy, rather than a defense thereof.
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Old 2011-12-27, 15:01   Link #18683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkbeat View Post
While what Ithekro says is certainly true, there is an element of baiting involved here not being mentioned in the mainstream news.

A lot of news has focused on the mehadrin bus lines in Israel. A good example is the line from Ashdod to Jerusalem. There's a bus every 30 minutes (the 438) that goes the route but also, on the hour, there is a mehadrin bus (the 450) which operates with a voluntary separation of men and women (that aren't married). This is the voluntary choice of both men and women who take this bus, but recently (female) reporters have been intentionally taking the bus and flouting the separation which has stirred trouble.

This strikes me as an attack on free choice and democracy, rather than a defense thereof.
how much of that is real voluntary oppose to involuntary voluntary? And name a Democracy (which Israel Claims to be) that runs a separate but equal service.
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Old 2011-12-27, 15:06   Link #18684
Ithekro
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If I read that right, there is a bus every half hour for anyone to take, but there is also an hourly bus for those that wish to maintain the seperation of the sexes.

Is this correct?

Also how are the sexes seperated in this case? A divider? seperate busses? Are the married women allowed to be with their husbands? (These are things that have not been regularly practised in my lifetime where I live, so I have no idea of the wheres or hows). The closest things to that would be the divide between "whites and colored" in the Deep South well over ten years before I was born. Though I do hear that some Christian churchs still keep men and women seperate...I've not experianced it.
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Old 2011-12-27, 15:10   Link #18685
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It's voluntary insomuchas you have two buses running at the same time (the 438 and the 450) on the same route. One you can sit wherever you want, the other the passengers (both male and female) respectfully prefer to keep separate. You don't have to take the latter bus, it's infrequent and often considerably more crowded. It exists because there are those, both men and women, who don't want to sit together unless they are married.

Does that sound unequal to you? It affects men and women the same.

EDIT: @Ithekro, that's right. There's a regular bus every half an hour, but on the hour you have the OPTION of one that has separation. There's no barriers, it's just seating separation. In some, women sit only at the front and men at the back. For others it's reversed.
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Old 2011-12-27, 15:29   Link #18686
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Shourd criticized the current Iranian regime and said she had received a wave of support from Iranians around the globe who understood her situation and apologized for their government’s actions.
“Iranians understand what we went through better than anyone else,” she wrote. “Their government is rapidly devolving into a neo-totalitarian regime that uses random arrests, assassinations, show trials, and executions to manipulate, silence dissent, and set an example.”
American officials could have done more to prevent or lessen the hikers’ protracted detainment, she also said. Shourd cited HR 1905, the Iran Reduction Act, a bill that she said would prevent low-level discussions between Iran and the Washington, “the only type that has proven effective.” She also criticized broad sanctions against the country that hurt Iranian citizens.
http://blog.sfgate.com/stew/2011/12/...olicies/?tsp=1
what a idiot, not a once did this airhead admit maybe it was a bad idea to go hiking in a war zone near a country not friendly with the US.
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Old 2011-12-27, 15:46   Link #18687
Ithekro
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...UC Berkeley...
Ah...that explains a lot right there.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:01   Link #18688
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
how much of that is real voluntary oppose to involuntary voluntary? And name a Democracy (which Israel Claims to be) that runs a separate but equal service.
Involuntary voluntary? Do you mean they do it voluntarily because they have to? Well, I'm not gonna claim the obvious by saying that makes no sense, but that's not at all what he's saying. Those who take the bus on the hour have the OPTION of choosing whether to take the bus where there is no separation or the bus where there is. If people didn't want to keep separate, they could take the bus where there's no separation. When you consider that, the voluntary separation sounds quite voluntary to me.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:11   Link #18689
Ithekro
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"Involuntary voluntary" I believe would mean, "Doing so because it is expected" or traditional. One of those "Doesn't do anything else because the idea of doing something else doesn't seem logical" problems. However that cannot be entirely the case here because there is an option to do something else that is more conveniant.

This isn't like the buses were the "coloreds" had to ride in the back by law because there was no other option, or the "seperate but equal" crap that was pulled for years in the same regions. There is a clear other way possible.

Now if you mean a matter of "programming" via religious teachings as an "involuntary voluntary", well...that is religion for you. The Amish I suppose could be considered similar in that, but they too have the option of leaving their 1699-ish lifestyle.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:14   Link #18690
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If I read that right, there is a bus every half hour for anyone to take, but there is also an hourly bus for those that wish to maintain the seperation of the sexes.

Is this correct?
That makes it sound much more relaxed than it is. In reality, young women are often verbally abused, spat on or sometimes even physically attacked for "shameless clothes". And if you're in the areas of the illegal settlements, even Israeli soldiers (!) are regularly attacked by ultra-orthodox extremists.

It's quite an unpleasant development which the worldly jews are suffering through. Since most of the ultra-orthodox don't work, they're alimented by the state. At the same time, they're outbreeding the worldly jews by a significant margin. To "thank" them for that, they're aggressively harassing people who don't share their views - they have time for that, after all.

However, since Netanyahu wouldn't be able to remain in power without the hardcore right, he has tolerated this (mis)behavior for far too long. And even now, when after the attacks on the IDF he has no choice but to condemn the ultra-orthodox violence, there's still no rigorous restoring of order.

So, in a nutshell, Israel is plagued by narrowminded religious zealots just like the rest of so many states in the middle east. If I was a worldly jew, I'd be extremely frustrated. The way things are developing, it's only going to get worse instead of better.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:25   Link #18691
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That makes it sound much more relaxed than it is. In reality, young women are often verbally abused, spat on or sometimes even physically attacked for "shameless clothes". And if you're in the areas of the illegal settlements, even Israeli soldiers (!) are regularly attacked by ultra-orthodox extremists.
That makes it sound more extreme than it is.

Young women are not "often" verbally abused or spat on. It shouldn't happen at all, but it rarely does occur by a fringe element and (this is extremely important) if something has occurred to provoke it.

It's very rare and the people who do that sort of thing are shunned quite openly by the leaders and majority in the hareidi tzibur (ultra-orthodox community).

"Settlers" as you know them are also not hareidi, they are dati leumi (religious zionist) and there was one single incident of attacking an IDF base (not IDF soldiers) by this sector this year. This caused an outcry from all sides.


Quote:
It's quite an unpleasant development which the worldly jews are suffering through. Since most of the ultra-orthodox don't work, they're alimented by the state. At the same time, they're outbreeding the worldly jews by a significant margin. To "thank" them for that, they're aggressively harassing people who don't share their views - they have time for that, after all.
Many hareidi men don't work, but most women do. The situation is improving quite considerably though, there was for a time a bias against recruitment of hareidim but not so much any longer.


Quote:
So, in a nutshell, Israel is plagued by narrowminded religious zealots just like the rest of so many states in the middle east. If I was a worldly jew, I'd be extremely frustrated. The way things are developing, it's only going to get worse instead of better.
I'd be extremely frustrated too if I only read biased news reporting and didn't actually know what's really happening.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:29   Link #18692
Ithekro
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Okay....why would they attack an IDF base at all? Aren't they suppose to be on the same side? Especailly it supposedly hostile Palestinian territory.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:30   Link #18693
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
how much of that is real voluntary oppose to involuntary voluntary? And name a Democracy (which Israel Claims to be) that runs a separate but equal service.
Most democracies have separate but equal public restrooms.

I'm not saying it's the same - in the case of public restrooms, the vast majority accepts and welcomes the separation (or at least doesn't care). No need to harass anyone. But my point is, separation isn't necessarily wrong.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:35   Link #18694
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Okay....why would they attack an IDF base at all? Aren't they suppose to be on the same side? Especailly it supposedly hostile Palestinian territory.
To avoid possible eviction, the Israeli army rather than the police are used to dismantle outposts and unauthorised settlement expansion.

I think the culprits were a bit mentally suspect too.
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Old 2011-12-27, 16:50   Link #18695
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Well since that is technically (until a treaty is finalized) foreign soil, the military would have law in their hands rather than the civilian police departments. So that makes sense.

I hope the military did carry out the law as required in that situation even after that incident. Can't let the radicals dictate policy by proxy for the people or the governement. At least not without someone saying something about it if it is wrong.
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Old 2011-12-27, 17:13   Link #18696
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Originally Posted by Darkbeat View Post
That makes it sound more extreme than it is.

Young women are not "often" verbally abused or spat on. It shouldn't happen at all, but it rarely does occur by a fringe element and (this is extremely important) if something has occurred to provoke it.

It's very rare and the people who do that sort of thing are shunned quite openly by the leaders and majority in the hareidi tzibur (ultra-orthodox community).
Quote:
In reality, young women are often verbally abused, spat on or sometimes even physically attacked for "shameless clothes". And if you're in the areas of the illegal settlements, even Israeli soldiers (!) are regularly attacked by ultra-orthodox extremists.
1) Please point me to a reference where their leadership condemned this behavior.
2) Verbal and physical abuse invalidates any claim of "disrespect".
3) if something has occurred to provoke it. um, that's the "she was raped because she provoked it by exposing her ankles" defense. :P
3) "separate but equal" really doesn't work and is socially abusive in practice - historically validated.
4) If they are really outlier fringe extreme zealots, then I should think a crack down for violating secular codes of behavior would be the least the government could do.

There's no reason to have respect for or even walk quietly by someone who wants to dictate everyone else's values.
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Old 2011-12-27, 17:17   Link #18697
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That makes it sound more extreme than it is.
Oh really.

Quote:
Young women are not "often" verbally abused or spat on. It shouldn't happen at all, but it rarely does occur by a fringe element and (this is extremely important) if something has occurred to provoke it.
Right, if these women wouldn't have dressed like they pleased, they wouldn't have been attacked. Clearly that's a provocation. NOT.

Quote:
It's very rare and the people who do that sort of thing are shunned quite openly by the leaders and majority in the hareidi tzibur (ultra-orthodox community).
Yea, it's so rare that there are demonstrations of thousands of people AGAINST this religious zealotry. Where camera teams come to the place to film the harassment that an 8-year old immigrant from America was going through. And where the camera team was ATTACKED by a mob of 200 Haredim, repeatedly.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national...emesh-1.403916

Heck, in fact, it's so irrelevant that even President Shimon Peres (!) encouraged people to ATTEND a demonstration against religious zealotry. It's going so far that it's even prime time news in other countries.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national...emism-1.403887

Totally rare, really. Who are you kidding?

Quote:
Many hareidi men don't work, but most women do. The situation is improving quite considerably though, there was for a time a bias against recruitment of hareidim but not so much any longer.
Oh, that sounds nice. So tell me: How many percent of haredi men and women work? How many of them do you expect to take on a job over study of scriptures, in the light of your positive developments, and with which statistics do you back this claim? Wikipedia claims that 50% of haredim live below the poverty line and receive welfare (compared to 15% of the rest of the population). They're also the fastest-growing population slice in Israel.

Quote:
I'd be extremely frustrated too if I only read biased news reporting and didn't actually know what's really happening.
Yeah, definitely. Maybe I'm an anti-semite too, like the Haaretz and the rest of the free media.
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Old 2011-12-27, 17:23   Link #18698
Darkbeat
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
1) Please point me to a reference where their leadership condemned this behavior.
2) Verbal and physical abuse invalidates any claim of "disrespect".
3) if something has occurred to provoke it. um, that's the "she was raped because she provoked it by exposing her ankles" defense. :P
3) "separate but equal" really doesn't work and is socially abusive in practice - historically validated.
4) If they are really outlier fringe extreme zealots, then I should think a crack down for violating secular codes of behavior would be the least the government could do.

There's no reason to have respect for or even walk quietly by someone who wants to dictate everyone else's values.
1. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=113006

2. I'm not saying it's right, it's very wrong and extremely upsetting to the majority in the hareidi community. What I'm saying is that people shouldn't go around looking for trouble, just as much as people shouldn't start trouble. Putting yourself at risk is forbidden in halacha (Jewish law) as much as being the risk.

3. You said 3 twice :P I'll answer #2 since #1 is similar to number 2?
You're quite right of course, I'm not arguing that separate but equal always works. It's just a fact that some people, men and women, don't feel comfortable with mixed seating on a bus. If there was no provision for that, they'd either create their own bus service or simply not take public transport. The option is there for those who want it. A democracy is supposed to serve ALL it's citizens.

4. I agree, of course. Look, there's a lot of different groups. We have naturei kartei who support palestinian terrorism and attacks against "zionists", but they number no more than a few thousand. Because they wear black hats too, people tend to tar all the hareidim with the one brush.
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Old 2011-12-27, 17:28   Link #18699
Ithekro
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Well Haaretz is criticized as being Anti-Zionist by some Israeli.
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Old 2011-12-27, 17:29   Link #18700
Darkbeat
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Oh really.
Yarly?


Quote:
Right, if these women wouldn't have dressed like they pleased, they wouldn't have been attacked. Clearly that's a provocation. NOT.
Dress in provocative clothing and walk into a religious neighborhood? I wouldn't wear a Rangers shirt and walk into a Celtic neighborhood in Glasgow, that's both incitement and outright stupid.

Just live and let live.


Quote:
Yea, it's so rare that there are demonstrations of thousands of people AGAINST this religious zealotry. Where camera teams come to the place to film the harassment that an 8-year old immigrant from America was going through. And where the camera team was ATTACKED by a mob of 200 Haredim, repeatedly.
So? Thousands? What is that? A fringe compared to MILLIONS.

Beit Shemesh is particularly bad, but I see the co-existance and the situation from FACTS ON THE GROUND. Haaretz is the most left wing publication in Israeli media and is whipping up a frenzy with hareidi attacks. So much so that President Perez has called for them to stop; http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/...ncitement.html



Quote:
Oh, that sounds nice. So tell me: How many percent of haredi men and women work? How many of them do you expect to take on a job over study of scriptures, in the light of your positive developments, and with which statistics do you back this claim? Wikipedia claims that 50% of haredim live below the poverty line and receive welfare (compared to 15% of the rest of the population). They're also the fastest-growing population slice in Israel.
As I said, most hareidi women work. Many men study in yeshivot to be sure. Are you jealous?
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