AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Another

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-02-25, 23:34   Link #141
Hakuromatsu
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greater Boston
Well, totoum, you've given me a lot to think about. I think there's a deeper issue here.

The phenomenon hadn't started in April, as evidenced by the fact that Class 3 had enough desks during its opening ceremony and the fact that no one died during that month. We're in agreement there. Now, the trigger for the phenomenon starting was Kouichi transferring to the class in May, leaving the class a desk short and forcing Akazawa to start engaging in the countermeasure of ignoring Mei. We're also in agreement there.

However...this is where things get dicey. The only change made to the class roster in May was the addition of Kouichi, and yet, the phenomenon only started when he was added. So there are three possibilities:

1. Kouichi is the Another. There would've been no Another in the class in April, so obviously there would've been no phenomenon that month. This is an easy and logical explanation -- but with the red herring dream sequence and Mei's assertion to the contrary, it doesn't seem likely.

2. Another student from Class 3 is the Another. This is trickier to explain, because the phenomenon didn't occur in April even though the Another would've been in the class -- and Teshigawara makes it clear at the beginning of EP6 that the class had enough desks at its opening ceremony. It's possible that when characters use the term "phenomenon" they're referring to the monthly deaths, not the presence of the Another in the class (i.e. there's an Another every year, but with successful countermeasures and dumb luck there aren't deaths every year). This is messy, messy reasoning -- but it's the only way I can seem to rationalize another student being the Another using our combined logic.

3. Someone who isn't a student in Class 3 is the Another. Well...this is an interesting proposition. There's no precedent for this, and it seems as though neither Chibiki nor anyone in the class has remotely considered it. I can't rationalize it, but then again, this is a possibility that exists outside the logic of what we've heard in the first seven episodes, so I can't rule it out either. Well anyway, this gives some steam to the Reiko bandwagon -- and no other character outside Class 3 has had enough screentime to be considered.

Hakuromatsu is offline  
Old 2012-02-25, 23:42   Link #142
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
A the begining of episode 4



There's also the fact that at first the students of class 3 thought it wasn't happening this year (episode 4 , about 17:15)



They didn't bother ignoring anyone at first (Mei wasn't being ignored at the start of the schoolyear,she only started on May 1st),if it happens every year they never would have considered the possibility of it not happening this year.
You're slightly misrepresenting people here. There were no INCIDENTS last year, but that may have been because they consistently ignored someone and the Another never caused a disturbance. Mei wasn't ignored only because they ended up having an even number of desks and they didn't account for Kouichi transferring in.

What you quoted does not actually insinuate that there was no Another the previous year.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 00:21   Link #143
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Mei wasn't ignored only because they ended up having an even number of desks and they didn't account for Kouichi transferring in.
The fact they forgot about kouichi is completely irrelevant to the discussion,the point is that if it happens every year their reaction to having the right number of desks should be "hey why is the number of desks correct?" not "cool,it's not happening this year!" and not even bother setting up countermesures.

There's also the question Kouichi asked the librarian in episode 6

Quote:
Was 1983,15 years ago,a year when it happened?
Why ask that if it happens every year?Certainly not to ask if someone died that year,he already knows his mom did.He can't be asking if ignoring someone worked that year because back then the "ignore someone" countermeasure hadn't been invented yet.He's checking to see if her death could be due to the phenomenon.If it happened every year he wouldn't need to check.
__________________

Last edited by totoum; 2012-02-26 at 00:37.
totoum is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 00:50   Link #144
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
That's irrelevant to the fact that the things you quoted above don't conclusively indicate what you concluded. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, just with how you presented the argument. It creates noise data.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 01:28   Link #145
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's irrelevant to the fact that the things you quoted above don't conclusively indicate what you concluded.
It's not written black on white but I don't see why it would need to be,the actions of the character speak for themselves.
Their actions just don't make sense if it happens every year.
__________________
totoum is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 01:43   Link #146
PreSage
Up-rope-ree-ate!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: some random place out there...
Those I don't think are "dead/Another":
Spoiler for speculations:
__________________
:|Sig Gallery|:
:|
Bishielicious|:
---------------
PreSage is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 03:12   Link #147
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Their actions just don't make sense if it happens every year.
Debateable. Especially since we already have precedent for people being pretty stupid.

Quote:
(4) Not the student who's Nurse sister died because she died in his place.

I think those who have relatives die for them are not Another
What do you base this on?
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 07:46   Link #148
Hakuromatsu
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greater Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Their actions just don't make sense if it happens every year.
I agree with you here but still think you're missing the big picture. You're saying that the phenomenon doesn't happen every year, and that, in a similar manner, it didn't happen in the month of April -- and that makes sense. But to hold that position you have to be willing to accept that the Another cannot be a student other than Kouichi from Class 3 (read my last post), unless you claim that there is an Another every year even if there aren't deaths every year. If you say that there wasn't an Another in Class 3 during the month of April, then the Another either has to be Kouichi or a person outside Class 3.
Hakuromatsu is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 10:28   Link #149
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu View Post
I agree with you here but still think you're missing the big picture. You're saying that the phenomenon doesn't happen every year, and that, in a similar manner, it didn't happen in the month of April -- and that makes sense. But to hold that position you have to be willing to accept that the Another cannot be a student other than Kouichi from Class 3 (read my last post), unless you claim that there is an Another every year even if there aren't deaths every year. If you say that there wasn't an Another in Class 3 during the month of April, then the Another either has to be Kouichi or a person outside Class 3.
Well for a long while I had indeed ruled out every student of class 3 except Kouichi but Forsaken Identity as well a little detail has made me come around on that,you said

Quote:
The only change made to the class roster in May was the addition of Kouichi
Kouichi's name wasn't actualy added to the roster in May,as per the roster he showed Mei in episode 5 his name was on there back in march,either he's the Another and that document was modified or he's not and while his name was on the roster and there was a desk planned for him the other students forgot about him and that held off the curse until he came in to the class.
__________________
totoum is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 12:21   Link #150
Hakuromatsu
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greater Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Kouichi's name wasn't actualy added to the roster in May,as per the roster he showed Mei in episode 5 his name was on there back in march,either he's the Another and that document was modified or he's not and while his name was on the roster and there was a desk planned for him the other students forgot about him and that held off the curse until he came in to the class.
Are you going by that shot of the roster at 14:34 in episode 5? Well, it's incredibly vague, unless there's something in the fourth column that I'm not able to read. It's clear that student No. 30 is a boy whose first name ends in "ichi," and may begin with "kou" -- it's almost impossible to read that kanji. Probably Kouichi, but not definitive.

But then I read Forsaken_Infinity's post from a couple pages ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
In Keichi's particular case, his dad contacted school well in advance so they knew about his transferring in. They just forgot to account for it. Not sure if this was mentioned in the anime though. Either that or if you are a proponent of Keichi is the another theory then you can take it as modification of records by the phenomenon I guess lulz.
Am I being dense, or was this not mentioned in the anime at all? Well if it wasn't, then it's no wonder I didn't know Kouichi was on the March roster. I'd be a bit frustrated if that wasn't made explicit in the anime. But anyway, thanks for cluing me in.

Kouichi's name was on the March roster, and that means (among other things) that Akazawa is an absolute idiot who can't count to 30 and is probably the worst head of countermeasures ever. What if a student had just been sick for the opening ceremony? Would she have said that the class had enough desks then? Anyway, this is a logical explanation for how the Another could've been in the class in April without the phenomenon being triggered, so I'm satisfied.
Hakuromatsu is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 12:44   Link #151
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Uhhh I'm not sure what this discussion is about? Wasn't it blatantly stated that it doesn't happen every year?
Dengar is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 12:47   Link #152
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Uhhh I'm not sure what this discussion is about? Wasn't it blatantly stated that it doesn't happen every year?
I thought it was,and like I said everybody sure acts like it doesn't happen every year,but I can't find a really explicit quote.

If you remember where I'd definatly apreciate it.
__________________
totoum is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 13:28   Link #153
Random32
Also a Lolicon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakuromatsu View Post

2. Another student from Class 3 is the Another. This is trickier to explain, because the phenomenon didn't occur in April even though the Another would've been in the class
Maybe
1. The phenomenon is linked to the number of students in the class. Another is added and Sakakibara is subtracted, thus keeping the class at a safe size.
2. It doesn't start until later in the year.
Random32 is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 13:42   Link #154
Hakuromatsu
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greater Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
Maybe
1. The phenomenon is linked to the number of students in the class. Another is added and Sakakibara is subtracted, thus keeping the class at a safe size.
2. It doesn't start until later in the year.
I'm disregarding my logic from that old post now that I know for a fact that Kouichi was on the March roster (even though I still don't remember it being explicitly mentioned in the anime). It's obvious now that if Kouichi had been in the class in April, as the roster suggests he should've been, the class would've been short on desks and the phenomenon would've started that month instead. So I agree with the first possibility you list.
Hakuromatsu is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 15:37   Link #155
PreSage
Up-rope-ree-ate!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: some random place out there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What do you base this on?
It's based more on my logic of the trends of the various deaths and their connections than on any single fact. It is a bit difficult to explain but let me try:

Most of the deaths so far seems like only one of two possible family members die but not both. For example, Ritsuko died instead of Reiko (although Reiko was the student of class-3), the nurse died instead of her brother, the 2 students of current class-3 died but no mention of any further deaths of their relatives. The only exception is the homeroom teacher who killed himself and his mother but his death is also different from the others in that it was voluntary/controlled (in a sense, suicide/murder) and not accidental/natural death (uncontrolled events) like the others.

So if the relative of the extra student (Another) also died this time around, then that would break this trend by having 2 deaths of the same connection. That's why I think the Another student already represents one death in that bloodline (so to speak) that the rest of their family members will not die now - and, of course, that extra student will not die either since they are already dead. That is why those with a relative who died like the kid with the nurse-sister, are not Another. It will be a curse of death of those who are still alive and their connections.

Going back to my previous post, I will put Teshigawara back on the list of being a possible extra student, since he wasn't from Tokyo (remembered the wrong character from the wrong show when I made that post ). However, since Teshigawara and his glasses friend are childhood friends who have been together since 2nd grade, I think these two are unlikely to be extra - since they have memories of each other outside of Yomi North and class-3. One of them are still possible but, to me, an unlikely possibility.
__________________
:|Sig Gallery|:
:|
Bishielicious|:
---------------
PreSage is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 15:54   Link #156
Hakuromatsu
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greater Boston
PreSage, both Yukari and her mother die. And let's not get into the argument from the other thread, but it's arbitrary to discount Kubodera and his mother just because their deaths could've been voluntary.
Hakuromatsu is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 15:56   Link #157
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Most of the deaths so far seems like only one of two possible family members die but not both. For example, Ritsuko died instead of Reiko (although Reiko was the student of class-3), the nurse died instead of her brother, the 2 students of current class-3 died but no mention of any further deaths of their relatives. The only exception is the homeroom teacher who killed himself and his mother but his death is also different from the others in that it was voluntary/controlled (in a sense, suicide/murder) and not accidental/natural death (uncontrolled events) like the others.
To be fair, we don't have that much sample data for deaths yet. The fact that the Homeroom teacher and his Mom's deaths are both attributed to the curse is enough to indicate this idea is flawed.

Quote:
So if the relative of the extra student (Another) also died this time around, then that would break this trend by having 2 deaths of the same connection. That's why I think the Another student already represents one death in that bloodline (so to speak) that the rest of their family members will not die now - and, of course, that extra student will not die either since they are already dead. That is why those with a relative who died like the kid with the nurse-sister, are not Another. It will be a curse of death of those who are still alive and their connections.
So how come everyone hasn't noticed this and used it to single out the Another deductively? "You, none of your relatives died, you're the Another"?

Quote:
Going back to my previous post, I will put Teshigawara back on the list of being a possible extra student, since he wasn't from Tokyo (remembered the wrong character from the wrong show when I made that post ). However, since Teshigawara and his glasses friend are childhood friends who have been together since 2nd grade, I think these two are unlikely to be extra - since they have memories of each other outside of Yomi North and class-3. One of them are still possible but, to me, an unlikely possibility.
If Kouichi's dad can have his memories rewritten while he's in India, all bets are off, yo.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 16:10   Link #158
Lord of Fire
The Voice of Reason
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I thought it was,and like I said everybody sure acts like it doesn't happen every year,but I can't find a really explicit quote.

If you remember where I'd definatly apreciate it.
Episode 4 has this piece of dialogue between two students from another class right near the beginning of the episode (00:39:44 - 00:58:12, [Underwater] subs):

Quote:
- "The curse of class 3, and the story that started it all 26 years ago."
- "Yeah..."
- "Does that mean it's going to happen again this year?"
- "Who knows. Nothing happened last year,"
This is the only evidence I could find thus far that directly suggests the curse doesn't happen every year.
__________________
Lord of Fire is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 16:36   Link #159
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
And all it necessarily insinuates is that people didn't DIE that year.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2012-02-26, 16:48   Link #160
Hakuromatsu
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greater Boston
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And all it necessarily insinuates is that people didn't DIE that year.
I understand what you're getting at: "phenomenon" refers to the monthly deaths rather than the existence of an extra student in the class, which you're saying does happen every year. That's the viewpoint I held yesterday.

I still acknowledge that possibility -- but if that's true, I find it odd that Teshigawara would explicitly use the fact that the class had enough desks at its opening ceremony as evidence that there was no phenomenon in April. His perspective seems to indicate that in past years, such as 1997, there had also been enough desks at the opening ceremony -- which, barring some unforeseen circumstance similar to Kouichi transferring into the class, would mean that there was no extra student in those years. (Unless 1998 was the first year that Class 3 had the correct number of desks, and Teshigawara was just making a logical assumption.)
Hakuromatsu is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.