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View Poll Results: Guilty Crown - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 23 23.47%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 24 24.49%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 17 17.35%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 9.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.06%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 6.12%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 3.06%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.02%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 5 5.10%
1 out of 10 : Painful 7 7.14%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-10, 08:32   Link #101
Crontica
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Are we forgetting the fact that Shuu had to watch someone die in front of him two times in a row? Why do i feel that the third one is gonna be Inori?
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Old 2012-02-10, 08:35   Link #102
Otani-kun
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I actually approve of Dark Shu. I got increasingly annoyed with his angsty hesitant personality throughout the first few episodes so this is a nice change of pace.

Seeing Souta being treated like a slave and almost dying was nice, he deserves it for being an idiot and getting Hare killed imo.
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Old 2012-02-10, 08:41   Link #103
Soji
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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
Are we forgetting the fact that Shuu had to watch someone die in front of him two times in a row? Why do i feel that the third one is gonna be Inori?
Please no...if this happen he will do the same thing a Mana...boom + new AV or void mass destruction
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Old 2012-02-10, 08:43   Link #104
freshoutofthepan
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Originally Posted by c^2 View Post
You are both missing the point; you can't have an effective organization without both trust and ability. Gai's organization had both, and hence it worked. Arbitrarily assigning people into a hierarchy and expecting results is a recipe for disaster. Putting one of those thugs into a position of authority after their recent actions is utterly insane, regardless of their ability or anything else. Shuu's organization is based on fear and secrecy, and as evidenced this episode, it is ready to crumble when the truth escapes.

Souta may be a moron, though no less deserving of sympathy than any of the others subjected to this ludicrously flawed system. Nor does he deserve to die for being a moron. He was also a very useful moron on two occasions, for Gai and Shuu, providing positive proof of how worthless the system is. I would rather have him covering my back than some thugs who would assault a girl in a wheelchair, or other random strangers.
I agree with the fact that you need both trust and ability to run an effective organization. But I also agree that Shuu's decision was within reason at that point in time, though i still think that ep 16 was a bit drastic..

It is entirely possible for someone to make that choice at that point in time and under a huge amount of stress and pressure from the situation itself and his peers. What he didn't have was enough time to foster trust between himself and the rest of the organization due to the fact that the red line was closing in, and he had to make a move fast in order to try and make a break for it. Throwing everyone in a hierarchy was probably the fastest and easiest way to maintain order AT THAT POINT IN TIME (just my opinion). Even though it was founded on fear, the hierarchy system is probably the most efficient if you want to get things done. I also have to say that such a system reduces the chances of an uprising in the short term, which is what matters at this point, as any move against the organization can be dealt with appropriately, further acting as a deterrent.

And anyway, he's just a 17 year old kid...give him a break~
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Old 2012-02-10, 08:54   Link #105
Jerseykid
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That was awesome. I was hoping to see Shu walk the line a little longer before crossing over to the ok we have to fix him now side. It's rare we get to see the good guy obviously on the wrong path.
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Old 2012-02-10, 08:56   Link #106
bevan
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Ouch man, can't wait to see Gai's appearance and the revelation about his mum's role in this mess
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Old 2012-02-10, 08:58   Link #107
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Right now, what I want is and ending with Shu and Inomanari who are alived and all the other killed by them.
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Old 2012-02-10, 09:30   Link #108
HelpeRX
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Re

I was like shit shu is actually strong even know hes bad but then he gets beaten up by his past undertaker friend I was like eh you still weak XD.
Also inori is turning into mana and gai is alive wTF
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Old 2012-02-10, 09:34   Link #109
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A few points on the ongoing debates over Shu, Souta, the effectiveness of the Void ranking system, and the effectiveness of a hierarchy system in general:

1. Democracy is indeed the best form of all known forms of government, but only as a generality. In other words, for most imaginable situations, it's true. But it's not true for the very unusual circumstances that Shu and these kids find themselves in.

The core downside of democracy is that it's relatively slow (i.e. compared to the speed of a King or Tyrant snapping his fingers, and his commands happening right there, right now). Getting the informed consent of the people takes time. Time that you may not have when your resources are running extremely low, the enemy seems to have you outgunned, the enemy is entirely merciless, and the enemy is steadily eating further and further into your territory.

This is the sort of situation that even democratic governments would probably declare martial law over. The reason being that, in such crisis situations, decisions need to be made and implemented very quickly. Maintaining order is very important. Why is it important?


2. Episode 15 made it crystal clear why it's important to enforce a degree of hierarchy-based order during a situation like this one. If you don't, people (like Souta's F-Ranks group) can go off on their own, do whatever they want, and potentially make things much, much worse for the group as a whole.

You can't afford much anarchy in a situation like the one that Shu's group is facing. You just can't. A well-organized military (like GHQ) will simply annihilate an unorganized group of civilians.


3. Now the Void ranking system... Yes, it does seem a bit off. Whether this is by intentional design (it's going to serve a thematic purpose later), or due to questionable execution in the writing, I don't know. We've already seen examples of how Void ranks don't necessarily correlate well to degree of Void usefulness. But suppose that they were tightly correlated. Suppose that F-rankers all had really crappy voids, and S/A-rankers had all the best and most useful voids. Then, sad to say, but the Void ranking system would make a fair deal of sense, given the scarcity of needed resources.

Like it or not, Shu is right about how the current situation doesn't really allow for strict egalitarianism. That's the cold, hard fact of the matter.


4. I think that the scene where Shu denies Souta the needed oxygen tank is not to display the Void ranking system in action, per se, but rather to show how Shu has become a bit of a vindictive bastard. If it was anybody other than Souta down there, I think Shu would have allowed the oxygen tank to be used.

Why do I think that? Because none of Shu's immediate entourage (most notably his two Secret Service girls, including one who even idolizes him) took action to stop Argo there, and only Yahiro bothered to even verbally defend Shu. That tells me that even they couldn't pretend that Shu's BS excuse made sense here (so Shu wouldn't use it unless it served an ulterior motive). Just because you have a hierarchy doesn't mean you take leave of common sense. Who's more likely to need an oxygen tank: F-rank divers scavenging for you, or A/S-ranks who likely never need to go underwater for long periods of time? The answer is obvious.

Yahiro backed Shu up here because I think Yahiro was simply thrilled at seeing Shu be a bastard for any reason whatsoever. Yahiro desperately wants Shu to be a totally cold, heartless Dictator. Even now Yahiro still considers Shu soft. Yahiro's overall philosophy is basically that of a Dr. Doom or a Lex Luthor. Yahiro is either that far over the moral event horizon, or he's a mole working for GHQ.


5. Shu basically wanting Souta to die is the "real edge" to Tyrant Shu that I mentioned before. He's now become somebody you do not want to earn the enmity of, which is quite different from how he used to be.


Anyway, that might have come off a bit long and incoherent, but I think it touches on every point I wanted to anyway.
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Old 2012-02-10, 09:39   Link #110
Akashin
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Originally Posted by HelpeRX View Post
I was like shit shu is actually strong even know hes bad but then he gets beaten up by his past undertaker friend I was like eh you still weak XD.
Also inori is turning into mana and gai is alive wTF
What did you expect? He wasn't armed with a particularly useful Void, and once the Void is out of the way of course Argo would overwhelm him. Shu simply doesn't have the means to really fend for himself without a Void in his hand, at least not against somebody with proper military training like Argo, and I really don't see that changing anytime soon. Give him a good Void though and he's plenty strong.
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Old 2012-02-10, 09:43   Link #111
c^2
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Nope. It was because he trusted Souta and the other fodder actually training with their voids instead of doing something stupid that they ended up in that mess.
Let us not forget why Souta went out: to prove a point in part, but also to secure a further supply of the vaccine. As far as he understands, Shuu has embraced the ranking system and abandoned him and the other low-ranking students to die. Trusting Souta is irrelevant at this point, if Shuu has already betrayed him. Perhaps proposing a vaccine recovery plan to Shuu would have gone better, but with Yahiro, I kind of doubt it. So, it wasn't especially stupid, just desperate.

Quote:
He drove out to stop Souta from being a retard but the idiot stood there arguing and so the enemy caught them. His plan to lure them away while the others escaped was working fine until Souta yet again had the bright idea to repair a damn car out in the open.
He drove out completely defenseless, demonstrating his own F-rank intelligence in process. He should have brought some useful people with him--alone, he is useless in any situation which might arise.

Agreed, the car repair out in the open among endlaves was suicidal, and Hare is bright enough to have that known as well. The whole event is one giant contrivance which would not have occurred if not for absurdly stupid actions on the part of Shuu, Souta, and Hare, each in turn.

Quote:
Souta was already outside the wall and the only person he had with him was Hare. Inori nowhere to be found. His only choices were to get to Souta ASAP and stop them or let them run to their deaths.
You even recognize that there was imminent danger involved, and the only person he brought with him was Hare. For all the good he could hope to do, he may as well not have gone. He should have found the right people to accompany him, or not gone at all. If he is lost, all is lost, so this is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Quote:
Shuu was acting stupid alright. Stupid enough to believe that trust and friendship wouldn't bite him in the ass. Stupid enough to not implement the system earlier. Stupid to trust F-Ranks.
Why would F-Ranks be inherently untrustworthy? Well, unless they found out that you plan to stab them in the back, but then whose fault is that exactly? Still, do you realize what you (and not you alone) are arguing here about trust? That just because it is possible that someone might violate your trust, that it is then logical to trust no one? The fact remains that you can't build a solid organization without some form of trust, and Shuu's efforts are completely in vein.
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Old 2012-02-10, 09:57   Link #112
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4. I think that the scene where Shu denies Souta the needed oxygen tank is not to display the Void ranking system in action, per se, but rather to show how Shu has become a bit of a vindictive bastard. If it was anybody other than Souta down there, I think Shu would have allowed the oxygen tank to be used.
Souta don't really need oxygen tank since he can use emergncey oxygen.
But Shu order them not to tell him that because he need to discover it by himself
or he is just useless trash.

And what make it funny is that Shu know about emergncey oxygen even though he is not part of diving team
while Souta who is part of it didn't even thought to use it....
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Old 2012-02-10, 10:36   Link #113
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Quick note. Comparing Guilty Crown to Code Geass is fine as long as it's done tastefully. But Do Not post Geass spoilers. Not everyone has seen Geass and some of the posts in this thread have given away huge details. Please be careful when comparing.
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Old 2012-02-10, 10:48   Link #114
Crontica
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The easiest way to gain trust is through respect, and you get respect through results.
Meaning that Shuu needs brush up on his infiltration techniques.
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Old 2012-02-10, 11:10   Link #115
n120cky
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OK, we got unique duet Tyrant King & Yandere Queen (well never see this coming), but i feel like the plot and character development was jumping around, for example I was surprise that Shu goal is iust getting out of Tokyo . . ., so he not gonna destroy GHQ? When he did success getting out of Tokyo what he will do next? I think he or Yahiro doesn't have any plan.

Inori action in this episode obviously shown the Mana ego, so Mana persona most likely will control Inori, and when there is Mana, Gai will be there . . .

I wonder if Shu will be feared when he found out that Inori becoming Mana.
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Old 2012-02-10, 11:15   Link #116
Soji
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^ I don't know why...but I don't think he will be scary by her. ...can be wrong thought.
Hell I get the feeling that shu already understand that some of mana is inside inori from this ep(again can be wrong).
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Old 2012-02-10, 11:32   Link #117
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I think the students are pretty much screwed anyway. Even if they could escape outside they will still be fugitives. They also need a constant supply of vaccines. Even if they managed to overcome these and become a criminal organisation, they will eventually becomes 18 years olds. Unless maybe they take to kidnappings as well.
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Old 2012-02-10, 11:40   Link #118
DXMichael
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The one thing that annoyed me the most in this episode was that they still made Shu look weak in the end. After all that build up with the city being surrounded, Shu being elected the new leader, Hare's death, Shu mental and emotional change, they still made him look weak at the end when he lost that fight with Arugo with one punch.

If it had been a decent fight with Shu actually defending himself and making Arugo reconsider his thoughts for a few moments before he landed the final blow, sure, I would have accepted that. But instead, it was 'Dodge, jump, punch, pin to the ground, you lose' which completely turned my "This Shu is awesome" thought into "What the hell?".

Also, if Gai was cloned, then I demand that Dan Eagleman gets cloned as well!
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Old 2012-02-10, 11:43   Link #119
hyl
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The one thing that annoyed me the most in this episode was that they still made Shu look weak in the end. After all that build up with the city being surrounded, Shu being elected the new leader, Hare's death, Shu mental and emotional change, they still made him look weak at the end when he lost that fight with Arugo with one punch.

If it had been a decent fight with Shu actually defending himself and making Arugo reconsider his thoughts for a few moments before he landed the final blow, sure, I would have accepted that. But instead, it was 'Dodge, jump, punch, pin to the ground, you lose' which completely turned my "This Shu is awesome" thought into "What the hell?".
Shuu is still less well trained as both a fighter and soldier than Argo is. Shuu still over relies on voids rather than combat tactics and that scene confirms it.
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Old 2012-02-10, 11:58   Link #120
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This episode was really not any good in term of execution and presentation, despite the events and points were sort of interesting in contrast with what has happened until now.

My main gripe isn't how "Shu is now a jerk" but rather how he "became" one. I was already baffled how he declared himself to become a King last week, but the way how he changed his personality is anything but convincing. Of course, he is doing some sort of "necessary" evil, except it isn't necessary: the hierarchy among voids is, as explained by many people already, utterly pointless especially when circumstances have to be factored (to begin with, I still have my eyes rolling thinking that they have gladly been using the Genome Resonance Gauge until now without even question its origins and usefulness).
But the whole thing about "cannot be equalitarian in such circumstances" is completely stupid: I would understand if the whole "let's go together" had failed, but it was the whole ranking system which led to lil' void prince tragedy.

But what's actually worse is the fact Shu was flipping like a weather vane, despite he was sort of progressing before Hare's death (I would actually expect a spike of angst, a progressive depression then, "perhaps" a vengeful, cold demeanor to some extent). I personally can't praise the writing: instead of depicting a character being honestly aggravated by the loss of a friend, he became a different character "for the hell of it", which was almost the case already with his sudden burst of confidence here and there.


Aside of that, the whole totalitarian system doesn't make much sense whatsoever: my suspension of disbelief hit the bottom of the barrel as soon as I saw students bowing before Shu: yes, he is the key to their salvation, but he is no saint at all, especially in such state. Therefore, to be able to control people this way is not really convincing the way they did, even if you expect the thug idiots to ask Shu for their own void to seize control by force (speaking of which, I still want more "rules" about the whole power of king concept, since it becomes quite sketchy how long/far void owners can use them, as in time limit or/and how to disengage them because... well, we have a -boomerang- here, so huge problem no?).
But what's more even mind puzzling is how Shu is pretty much left alone without any escort whatsoever: true, he was with Inori, yet I would expect a personal force to keep him safe, any day of the week, while he is moving, having his personal stuff to do or sleeping, you name it. They should know that even the government know Shu's powers, therefore, there is nothing wrong to expect him to be the target of external enemies or even internal struggle due to obvious hatred for him. Hell, I can't believe he was facing Argo alone with just 1 fresh unit he himself asked her to follow him. If she wasn't there, he would be fishfood should Argo feel to stop shu's misery.

Really, the whole deal with Shu's "transformation" wasn't bad itself and "suits" the themes, sort of. But the execution and presentation are really poor in this episode.

Of course, the other problem again is... well, Mana and Gai are back. Well, I can actually understand that Mana is back, although I'm curious what are the justification for her personality now, since she was... "supposed" to be cleansed. But what's more important is "why the hell Gai is alive". Clone? Errr, to the point even the cross is with him?
Honestly, the speculation for "Shu VS Gai" becomes dramatically tangible now, and I'm really not happy about the cirmcunstances they used to pull that, should they really use this plot device.
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