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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Rating
Perfect 10 165 75.34%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 22 10.05%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 4.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 1.37%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.83%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.37%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 1.37%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 0.91%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.46%
1 out of 10 : Painful 6 2.74%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-02-26, 12:07   Link #261
Tempest35
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
I had a query that I forget to add when I watched the episode last night. Why is this poll wearing a skirt?



It happened right after Koyomi discovered Karen with skirt. I would be very delighted to read an answer that can make sense.
I agree with zargu.

To Koyomi, Karen w/skirt = Telephone Pole w/skirt. His own personal WTF 0.0 moment, if you will. He looks up to see his taller imouto who's always worn sweats and the like for casual clothes suddenly appears before him wearing actual feminine clothes... He might as well have looked up to see a random pole with a skirt
Guess he's always pegged tomboy Karen to burn skirts if ever presented with one, but now...not so much. She's adorable in a skirt.

Doesn't help that Karen's a big (ie. tall) girl either...or she's athletic like a beast... >.> (personal fets )
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:12   Link #262
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
Well, you could argue that it WAS fanservice, but I disagree. I consider fanservice to be a blatant attempt by one or more characters to showcase themselves in 'ecchi' situations. I did not get that feeling here at all. Neither Koyomi nor Karen knew what they were getting into, and that whole scene details how rational/logical thought can very easily be thrown out the window during strong emotional moments(e.g. lust). It really is quite ingenious =03.
No no no. The definition of fan service is not that, it really is what the phrase looks like. Specific service for the fans put in by the creator. This isn't limited to sexual things but in modern anime it's the most commonly seen and recognized version of it.

To me it is obvious what the intents of this scene were by both Nisio and Shinbo's grotesque over expansion of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro Hayase View Post
After reading the comments it seems like the incest part made some people uncomfortable. It's like a cultural shock for some I guess. The incest theme is commonly found in Japanese literature and has been around for centuries.

The episode is probably more acceptable to a Japanese audience or someone familiar with Japanese customs, than an American or Western one. I personally prefer faithful adaptions than the anime studio doing their conducting experiments with the anime.
I really wish people would stop mis characterizing arguments here.

First of all Japan is not the only society with incest as a theme in their literature historically. European monarchs practically practiced various forms of incestuous relations for centuries.

Also while in Japan they are more comfortable with things like cousin to cousin marriage, I dare you to try and go marry your sister in Japan and announce it to the public. If you believe otherwise, good luck.

Most importantly though, why do you think everyone who is not happy with this episode is like some social prude who is outraged on the attack of morality or something ?

Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was. It took up the entire episode . The fact that I find such a feitsh stupid, not offensive really but stupid, is merely a side note to the bigger picture here. When you take one scene that did almost nothing for the story as a whole, and suck up an entire episode out of it (This is an 11 episode series? Now it's practically 10 with some fanservice OVA tucked in it), then I'm going to raise issues with it when Nise has already had glacial pacing issues.
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:15   Link #263
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She seems to be a roadrunner rather than a phoenix .
technically they are both bird
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:32   Link #264
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
I had a query that I forget to add when I watched the episode last night. Why is this poll wearing a skirt?
Karen usually wears tracksuits because she says skirts make her legs look too long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirn View Post
Please, please, please stop referring EDICT when doing translations. While it has some newer words or some slang often seen in anime/manga, it got a lot wrong (or wrong without context).
Ok, I checked the undead page in wikipedia.

ファンタジーを題材とするテーブルトークRPGやコンピュータゲームでは代表的なモンスターとして定着して おり、「アンデッド・モンスター」か単に「アンデッド」と呼ばれ、日本語では「不死の怪物」や「不死者」などという訳もよく使われている。しかし、本来の意味からすれば、「不死」=「死なない」というよりは「 死にぞこない」というべきであり、正しい意味での不死者はイモータルと言う。それ以外の日本語表記では、「 亡者」や「死霊」などがある。

It says that while 不死 properly means immortal, it is often used even for undeads.

Also found something else interesting in that page. ノーライフキング. From the novel of Itou Seikou, ノーライフキング is the ultimate vampire. The term was invented because he feared "lich" was copyrighted. One of the title of Kissshot, King of Kaii, in furigana was exactly this "No Life King". I thought it was just Engrish, but it appears it was not the case. (btw, King of Kaii in furigana was also "King of Outsider" sometimes).
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:34   Link #265
Hiro Hayase
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
No no no. The definition of fan service is not that, it really is what the phrase looks like. Specific service for the fans put in by the creator. This isn't limited to sexual things but in modern anime it's the most commonly seen and recognized version of it.

To me it is obvious what the intents of this scene were by both Nisio and Shinbo's grotesque over expansion of it.



I really wish people would stop mis characterizing arguments here.

First of all Japan is not the only society with incest as a theme in their literature historically. European monarchs practically practiced various forms of incestuous relations for centuries.

Also while in Japan they are more comfortable with things like cousin to cousin marriage, I dare you to try and go marry your sister in Japan and announce it to the public. If you believe otherwise, good luck.

Most importantly though, why do you think everyone who is not happy with this episode is like some social prude who is outraged on the attack of morality or something ?

Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was. It took up the entire episode . The fact that I find such a feitsh stupid, not offensive really but stupid, is merely a side note to the bigger picture here. When you take one scene that did almost nothing for the story as a whole, and suck up an entire episode out of it (This is an 11 episode series? Now it's practically 10 with some fanservice OVA tucked in it), then I'm going to raise issues with it when Nise has already had glacial pacing issues.
Very true, I completely forgot about Europe there lol. Although, some people do see it as a sort of cultural shock, but maybe not here, well other forums. They are literally writing walls of text how incest is bad and etc.

Well I don't consider this episode that much of fanservice, since it does have relevance and has purpose in the LN. But how they execute it is another story for the future.

Kanbaru Suruga has said quite a few times that she's worried that the relationship between Koyomi and Karen is too close, and that it might take a wrong turn somewhere.

But I have to add that works that provoke controversy ( or strong feelings) is good thing. That's the same with art. Art is anything that you can getaway with. That's my definition of art.


P.S. I thought it would have 15 episodes like Bakemonogatari.
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:52   Link #266
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
ファンタジーを題材とするテーブルトークRPGやコンピュータゲームでは代表的なモンスターとして定着して おり、「アンデッド・モンスター」か単に「アンデッド」と呼ばれ、日本語では「不死の怪物」や「不死者」などという訳もよく使われている。しかし、本来の意味からすれば、「不死」=「死なない」というよりは「 死にぞこない」というべきであり、正しい意味での不死者はイモータルと言う。それ以外の日本語表記では、「 亡者」や「死霊」などがある。
Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not, but I'll add. This part「しかし、本来の意味からすれば、「不死」=「死なない」というよりは「死にぞこない」というべき であり、正しい意味での不死者はイモータルと言う」state that the usage of undead for 不死 (死なない) is not by its original meaning but rather for「死にぞこない」and in its original meaning, 不死者 should equal to "Immortal".
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Old 2012-02-26, 12:52   Link #267
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
No no no. The definition of fan service is not that, it really is what the phrase looks like. Specific service for the fans put in by the creator. This isn't limited to sexual things but in modern anime it's the most commonly seen and recognized version of it.

To me it is obvious what the intents of this scene were by both Nisio and Shinbo's grotesque over expansion of it.
Hmmm, I guess you're right. Still, I thought it was very fulfilling regarding how well it was done and the feelings(from myself, and Koyomi/Karen) that arisen from it =03.
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:14   Link #268
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Originally Posted by sirn View Post
Not sure if you're disagreeing with me or not
I wrote this sentence below that paragraph:

It says that while 不死 properly means immortal, it is often used even for undeads.

In short it is as I say, it also means undead, as a word you use in fantasy stories to denote a certain kind of monster. It's not the original meaning and it's not etimologically correct, but it is used.
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:40   Link #269
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
You are!
I have no idea what you are talking about. At the end Karen said it would be more fair if they switched sides. Both of them got a turn at cleaning the other's teeth.

They make out, yup, that's definitely what happened.

Also, it's very painful to watch fellow novel readers talk about the meaning of 不死 since they clearly know which version is being used.
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:42   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Reckoner
Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was.
I thought the same, but instead of raging I'm laughing my ass off. Quality of life ++
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:44   Link #271
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It's finally here, and it met up to my expectations

And now, to celebrate it, I'll post something relevant :

Spoiler for question time:
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:49   Link #272
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Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
It's finally here, and it met up to my expectations

And now, to celebrate it, I'll post something relevant :

Spoiler for question time:
sorry to pop ur bubble but that was already posted. its a toothbrush
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Old 2012-02-26, 13:51   Link #273
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sorry to pop ur bubble but that was already posted. its a toothbrush
Ah...

Too bad. Apologize then.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:02   Link #274
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This episode was quite something.

Araragi finds himself in a compromising situation with a member of the female cast. Stock, standard setup for practically EVERY FREAKING SCENE in the Monogatari series, with a few exceptions. This time, he is having sex with his younger sister. But there lies the crux of the episode. They aren't having sex. Teeth are being lovingly cleaned. The sexual innuendo level is off the chart, but the only thing crossing the plane was a plastic toothbrush into the oral cavity, a very common, socially acceptable activity.

Reading through the comments here, and a random sampling of blogs over there, some love it, some hate it. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I can't help but think the following when someone goes ballistic on how bad and horrible this episodes was:

"Someone didn't get the joke." I kinda feel bad for them. You can try to explain the joke, but even if you succeed they will never find it as funny as the person who got it.

But I got the joke, and it is terrible, horrible, implying that a brother and sister are mutually consenting to do sexual things, it is the most horrible thing ever. How can people like this crap? Araragi has given her a sponge bath in her underwear *gasp* He's brushed her teeth *scandalous* Will he be so depraved as to wash her hair next! That monster must be stopped! Wait, he's already washed a young girl's hair! Oh the humanity!!

Eh. Anime, fiction as a whole, is rife with genocide, betrayal, rape, incest, lying, stealing, whiny male protagonist, the whole rogues' gallery of human vice on parade for all to see. I view incest in a incredibly negative light. Given the absurd choice between murder and incest, I'd be selfish and go with murder. Even with that being said, I can't understand where this moral outrage is coming from. Never was it said or implied that this was correct behavior, nor was it suggested that you should rush out and brush your younger sister's teeth in a sexual way. This was black (pink?) comedy at its finest.

What I enjoyed most about this episode, beyond how amusingly silly it is, was the execution. SHAFT was destined to produce this series. The eccentricities of the SHAFT machine mesh perfectly with the worm gear of Nisio Isin. Its like the moment a autistic savant finds their specialty, what is produced should not be possible, but it is amazing.

This makes the outrage amusing to me. If this is offensive, how did they make it this far watching this series, produced by SHAFT, who do love their underage girl service? It's like going to a hockey game and being abhorred at the body checks and fighting. It should be very obvious what you are getting in to. Oh well, different strokes for different folks, its not like tastes and preferences have to be sane and logical.


Directly related to this episode, I found the following interesting.
Spoiler for Nisio Isin's comments on Karen Bee:
In some ways, it's like a serial killer's manifesto. It doesn't justify the act, but it gives you a glimpse into the motives behind it.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:12   Link #275
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I'm starting to be amazed how some comments basically distord a good deal of the complain.
While people mileage vary regarding their take about incest and whatnot, it isn't something you can force people to readily accept. Even so, it is -not- the core problem of the episode, at least to me.

Honestly, pretending the scene is innocent, by claiming it is just a game with toothbrush is really not an honest argument: the presentation and the themes are no brainer. Heck, those who enjoyed the scene themselves know perfectly the subverted genre and "mood" used here. It is by no means subtle whatsoever.
-everyone- knows damn well that toothbrushing isn't a crime and that no girl would get pregnant after that (hell, just imagine the birth rates! That would be Japan's best way to fight their declining population).
The major problem is how the innuendo are conducted in a fashion that makes the whole deal out of tracks and proportions.

Of course, it is not the first time we got a fanservice scene in the monogatari series, and surely won't be the last one (heck, I wouldn't be surprised if something "more outrageous" will show up, after that and things like Nadeko's snake).
That being said, you are off tracks here.

The consensus for the "unsatisfied party" with this episode is as follow: this episode -does not contribute to the main plot-, in a very dubious fashion to boot.
Not all scenes should, since you have your casual scenes and whatnot. However, we are talking about a -full- episode of a 11 episodes series. If you factor the context, there is no way everyone would be satisfied with this weird directing choice altogether.
The only "major" thing we learned in this episode is Karen's admiration for Suruga and... that's basically it. Which means that we could pretty well obliterate that episode from the series, and the continuity and plot wouldn't be hurt to the slightest, or at worst, just barely.

My personal opinion is that: I honestly laughed a bit how silly/exaggerated the scene was, but quickly gone baffled how long it took and how the premise took the whole episode. Yes, the toothbrushing scene is 3-4 minutes, but the leadup and the other points totalized -20 minutes-.
Really, the "incest" part is really not the worst part of it. I personally would react the same if it was any of the female character, perhaps a bit less with hitagi since it would be "less alienating" since she is Koyomi's girlfriend after all.

But seriously, it is starting to be quite annoying to see comments alienating people stance by false pretense of satirical outrage, while -several- traits of the episode made it quite questionable, in a directing perspective.
Fanservice by itself wouldn't cause so much ruckus, within different circumstances, so branding people as "how could they follow this series so far" is moot and impertinent.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-02-26 at 14:24.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:20   Link #276
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What I enjoyed most about this episode, beyond how amusingly silly it is, was the execution. SHAFT was destined to produce this series. The eccentricities of the SHAFT machine mesh perfectly with the worm gear of Nisio Isin. Its like the moment a autistic savant finds their specialty, what is produced should not be possible, but it is amazing.
Yeah, I think this basically encapsulates the whole thing for me. The theme of this episode was basically: excess. The original author took a simple but silly/crazy idea and just ran with it. The animation team took that same concept and simply let it play it out in its full absurd glory. They even gave it a full episode to let it play out, equivalent to the time allocation in the original work. And you watch it play out and you go "wow, now that's something I don't see everyday -- what the heck just happened?" And I think that was the point.

I think a lot of the criticism of this episode and the show is sort of more like "why are you doing this?" And I think the show's answer, for better or worse, is just basically "because we can". This isn't the show some people wanted it to be, but it's the show they set out to make. And I think some people feel confused and bewildered, and some other people feel maybe a bit betrayed. And I suppose it would be fair to say that we're being toyed with to a certain degree. This isn't like Bakemonogatari in a lot of ways, but at the same time it is. The whole thing is strange from beginning to end, and maybe some people can't decide if it's a "good strange" or a "bad strange". (Allusions to this episode's sub-theme notwithstanding? )

Now me, personally, I don't mind. I was thoroughly entertained by the excess and silliness, and I'm not worried at all about the episode count, how they'll fit in the rest of the story, or whatever. I'm sure they have something in mind. But, by the same token, I'm not going to try to say that this approach is beyond criticism. Heck, it invites criticism; I think that's the whole point of spending a whole episode on this! They're just putting it out there; here we are spending a whole episode on the sexual innuendo of teeth brushing with Karen at the beginning of Tsukihi's arc. Whaddya gonna do 'bout it? For me, I'm just going to laugh. Keep on being crazy, Nisemonogatari!


Edit: As an analogy, it reminds me of when a popular band that has a certain style decides all of a sudden to put out an album that has a totally different style or is really weird/experimental, and fans start complaining "what happened to this band? They used to be so good!" And someone asks the band about it, and they just say it's an album they wanted to make. It's the "because we can" principle. They know it might alienate some of their fans, but pleasing those fans wasn't why they did it in the first place. "To thine own self be true," as it were. From the commentary posted above, that seems to be the case here too.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:27   Link #277
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
If everything is subjected to criticism, then even criticism must be open to criticism. Who in his right mind would cut the much anticipated toothbrush scene? It was clearly not an option from the start. Just look at all the 10 this episode received, and think that in Japan is likely to be the same. Shaft knew what it was doing.
I agree, but "Deal with it" isn't really a productive criticism or conclusion of anything, and serves to not create any further understanding. It's merely a dismissive, and frankly, arrogant tone that shoudn't be used when you aren't properly responding to people. I criticize not what you say, but your manner of debate.

What you fail to understand is that you are not focusing on the argument and taking it out of context. Demi. had only labeled cutting out that as an option and that if it is to be kept, that the scene should not be immune to criticism.

In other words, whether or not Shaft knew what it was doing or how well it was doing does not effect what's being displayed on screen. Some of us don't care about how well it is adapted. If we say an episode is bad, then source is bad or adaptation is bad, it doesn't matter. I am not going to exempt every movie, anime and show and check out all their sources.

Viewers are unfair. Deal with it. I could have just posted that, but that wouldn't be productive would it?
Quote:

If the criticism just comes down to "Oh no, this episode is about sexual themes, if I like it they might mistake me for an otaku" then I can just shake my head in disbelief at what anime fans have become now.
Otaku pandering doesn't mean anything special. In Japan if you watch anime you are an otaku. Otaku pandering is something like "sighted people pandering". "Adult pandering type" describes it better, in that your body need to have reached puberty for you to understand.
Yes, the pandering argument is lacking. I hate it myself. Problem is that people are also questioning the point of the episode and not just its content.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:36   Link #278
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Ah...

Too bad. Apologize then.
no need to apologise
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:40   Link #279
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...Most importantly though, why do you think everyone who is not happy with this episode is like some social prude who is outraged on the attack of morality or something...? Look, what was stupid about it was how over indulgent, how over done and extended this scene was. It took up the entire episode. The fact that I find such a fetish stupid, not offensive really but stupid, is merely a side note to the bigger picture here. When you take one scene that did almost nothing for the story as a whole, and suck up an entire episode out of it...then I'm going to raise issues with it when Nise has already had glacial pacing issues.
Good points, although probably your inability to enjoy the fetish had something to do with your feeling the episode had poor pacing. Personally, I was shocked when the episode ended: I was so enthralled that I thought it wasn't even half over. A combination of fascination, discomfort and admiration had stalled my brain, lol. Now that's good anime.

In fact, one of the great things about the episode was that in an ep billed as being about Tsukihi, she only showed up at the end. Shinbou has many talents, one of which is always keeping the viewer a bit off-balance, vulnerable to what comes next. He does this with the nature and rhythm of his outstanding visuals -- and he did that here -- and also with the pacing of the script. Apparently for the first time ever as a director, Shinbou is credited as co-lead writer for this series, so he no doubt had more of a hand in the script than usual.

However, in a Shinbou/Nisio anime, "story" is a minor part of the enjoyment, for me. The fact that this scene "did almost nothing for the story as a whole" is quite beside the point, since it did so much else (characters, fanservice, visuals, dialogue, humour, etc.).

All in all, I consider this a great anime episode, partly because of the fact that Shinbou went so far. It wasn't "over-indulgence," it was Art, with a capital A. As well, of course, as Fanservice with a capital...F.

This may be the most I have ever enjoyed Kitamura Eri's voice. By emphasizing the edge in it, she (or famous sound director Tsuruoka Yota) gave it more presence. And I was surprised at how much I enjoyed Iguchi Yuka's singing of the OP. Of course, the OP animation was what drew me in to begin with: one of the great OP animations I can remember -- rhythmic, complex, beautiful.
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Old 2012-02-26, 14:41   Link #280
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On the one hand I can agree with people saying this episode didn't contribute to the plot. On the other hand I was too busy laughing my ass off to care.

I've never really cared all that much about plot in this series. To me, the Monogatari series isn't about plot. It's entire point is to give interesting and funny characters and explore them in various ways regardless of whether it turns out to be fully relevant in the grand scheme of things. So frankly I didn't mind the overblown "toothbrush" scene and everything leading up to it. Perhaps this is Nsio/Shinbo going too far in being clever for the sake of being clever, but that's what I've always liked about this series. It's what I think it's all about.

Now if the somewhat incestrous relationship developing between Araragi and Karen turns out to be completely irrelevant altogether later on then it would definitely seem pointtess and is really something that should've been relegated to an OVA or something. But we don't know if it's going to be irrelevant or not so we can't say for sure. Still I guess some people probably feel that even if it is relevant, then it still shouldn't have taken up so much screen time, but that depends also on what will actually happen next. It is also possible that this element has so much impact that it requires a whole episode of AraragixKaren antics to set up.

[EDIT]

Oh not again...
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Last edited by Haak; 2012-02-26 at 15:06.
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