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Old 2012-03-02, 13:35   Link #81
23 gundam fan
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Sasuke has already stated he plans to turn on Tobi. Before Tobi can turn on him. He is well aware he is being used. Learning that Tobi is not Madara shouldn't effect Sasuke's way of thinking. Some of what Tobi said about Konoha made sense to Sasuke. He has made the decision to believe some of it. While intelligent, Sasuke is no Shikamaru or Itachi. His emotions cloud his reasoning.
and shikamarus emotions doesnt. i have often thought about this. it was not a great idea to go after hidan and kakuza to begin with, but shika emotions got in the way. think about it. at first only ino and chouji were going on that mission, and they didnt even know the full abilities of kakuza, who everyone seem to sense was the stonger of the two. does that sound smart to anyone. also team asuma still stuggled against them and THAT WAS WITH KAKASHI OF ALL PEOPLE. what do you think would have happen if team asuma would have fought them with just ino and chouji. we all know they would have been killed in ten seconds, that is just the truth of the matter i think.
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Old 2012-03-02, 13:53   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
While intelligent, Sasuke is no Shikamaru or Itachi. His emotions cloud his reasoning.
After Asuma's death Shikamaru did a very stupid thing, he surely did know with the logical part of his brain that he has no chance, but his emotions took complete control over his brain. All human are like that, no exceptions. And i don't mean this as a negative thing, we humans are not machines, it's all right to behave like they did in those situations.
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Old 2012-03-02, 14:36   Link #83
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Sasuke has already stated he plans to turn on Tobi. Before Tobi can turn on him. He is well aware he is being used. Learning that Tobi is not Madara shouldn't effect Sasuke's way of thinking. Some of what Tobi said about Konoha made sense to Sasuke. He has made the decision to believe some of it. While intelligent, Sasuke is no Shikamaru or Itachi. His emotions cloud his reasoning.
as 23 gundam fan and Ero-Senn1n said, I agree that sasuke and shikamaru have succumbed to their emotions despite their intelligence, but it can also be said that itachi's emotions clouded his judgment in a critical moment. if it weren't for his love of sasuke and/or self-depricating desire for sasuke to judge him then itachi would have killed him too and none of this problem would have ever occured. I'm not saying killing sasuke would have been a good thing, but given the fact that he and the elders already decided to kill EVERYONE else, then it would have been wise to leave no survivors
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Old 2012-03-02, 15:25   Link #84
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Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan View Post
i understand where you are coming from, but the events after the thirds death could be argued to be total luck. the third could not have known how everything was going to work out. oroch could have got his arms restored by tsunda and coutinued to weak havoc on konoha. how it turned out is just how kish wanted it too. but it could have turned out far different. its like when people said sasuke didnt defeat deidara. hello if you are dead and the other person is still alive and walking and can affect the real world. its simple to me, the person alive won the fight. when you have to count on others, you have to have a lot of things fall into place. and you do not know if they will. case in point look at itachi and sasuke, itachi bet it all on sasuke and up till now, look at whats happen. its a great point of what happens when you die and have to leave it up to others.
How it could have turned out is fairly irrelevant. The fact is that Kishi has always made the Will of Fire speech a precursor to some kind of victory, even if the character saying it does die in the process or it's only a relative victory.
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Old 2012-03-02, 18:10   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I'm talking about Itachi not killing the clan...not him simply letting them go ahead with the rebellion. It's has been discussed in other threads before that maybe there were solutions other than the massacre.
Well, as its been presented to us, it does not seem like there was another way. Sarutobi tried to handle the situation diplomatically, but that failed... With diplomacy failed, it seemed certain that Uchiha would attempt to take over kohona.

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Personally I believe Itachi felt he didn't have a choice and saw it as either the-Uchiha-go-or-Konoha-goes. However once he made that decision and decided to spare Sasuke, he knew that Sasuke's life would be basically shattered. In other words, I'm saying Itachi sent Sasuke down this road the moment he decided to kill the clan. The murder is the source of his hatred--not Itachi's words, beatings or Tsukuyomi. Not Madara's or Oro's speeches. These things have only been used to direct Sasuke's existing hatred at specific people.
Yes the tragedy is at the core of Sasuke's life, but how he can deal with that trauma was still up in the air. There are MANY different ways people deal with tragedy. Sometimes its hate-filled vengeance, other times is simply wallowing in depression and other times its a more idealistic forgive and forget. With the right guidance, Sasuke could have been placed on a path that would provide him with a healthy outlet for all of his pain and put him on the path of recovery... but the negative influence of Itachi and those villians instead put him on a hate filled path.

Plus. like I said before, Itachi could have arranged things so that Konoha could have been more supportive to sasuke's upbringing... i mean they kind of just left him on his own. It didn't seem like anyone started actually dealing with him directly until 6 years after the tragedy when he got Kakashi as his teacher. 6 year old watched his brother kill his own parents and everyone else he knew a loved; first thing i would have done was find him a good Psychiatrist... the best thing they could have done for sasuke was probably make kakashi his guardian right away... while sasuke still goes through the academy Kakashi could provide sasuke with both training and proper guidance.

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One thing you and Slayerx don't really address is: Assuming your judgement about Sasuke is right and he didn't leave the village due to Itachi's mind rape--what would happen if he found out that Konoha responsible for the order to kill his clan? Likely he would've found out either from Tobi or Danzou (b/c Danzou would've eventually targeted Sasuke for his Sharingan if Itachi died). Would all the love and teamwork with Team7 have matter much then? I'd say it be more like a cruel joke. The people you live and care for are part of the organization that killed your family. It could've made his vengeance even worse. All the healing would be undone and it'd be like losing his family again.
Yes it would have made a HUGE difference; again because there is a difference between Revenge and Justice, which are both possible outlets for his trauma

Right now, Sasuke is planning on destroying all of konoha and killing all of his former friends. But when we look at what has happened to his clan, we can find that this makes no sense and is wrong. Why? Because the vast majority of konoha is innocent. Most of Konoha is unaware of what was being done to the Uchiha and even factions of the leadership such as sarutobi were opposed to all the actions that was being taken against them. In truth, The only guilty party are those who lead the discrimination and there is no good reason to harm the vast majority of Konoha. So why is Sasuke doing this? Because he's a hate filled prick who long since abandoned all love for those in Konoha. His revenge obsessed mind has allowed him to jump to the twisted conclusion that all of Konoha must pay for what happened to his clan and itachi even though most were unaware of what transpired, and his lack of love for the village and his friends removes any possible emotional hold that might stop him from going through with it.

If Sasuke had a less hate filled upbringing, being guided on a more positive path and maintained his close relationships with his friends, that would have made all the difference. Without being blinded by hatred, Sasuke would know that the ONLY people that are guilty are the elders; the ones who enacted and enforced the wrongful discrimination against the Uchiha and coerced Iatchi to do something terrible. Instead of lashing out a killing everyone, he would limit himself to the elders. Love for the village and his friends would help keep him on this path, because as long as he loves them, it will make it all the harder for him to lash out against them... Even if his anger wanted him to cross the line and hurt them, the love he had for them would cause an internal conflict; and the lack of good reason to hurt them (because they are innocent) would be the tipping point that would always keep him from crossing the line
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Old 2012-03-02, 18:31   Link #86
Shiryuu
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The Uchiha as a whole are just stupid. Why even bother planning a coup if they could've just left the village entirely and set up somewhere else?
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Old 2012-03-02, 18:54   Link #87
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The Uchiha as a whole are just stupid. Why even bother planning a coup if they could've just left the village entirely and set up somewhere else?
These things do not happen peacefully. You can't just leave a military ogranization. And even if you could leave Konoha somehow, other villages and countries would cause trouble to you. Also if you really feel as being part of an organization, then you don't want to leave it, you want to change it. This manga completely avoids these questions, i guess because it's more of a seinen theme, not a shonen one. I mean it avoids the question of really changing an organization like a ninja village. In reality Naruto would have to leave the village of Konoha and become a missing ninja after he let Pain go and if he didn't agree with Danzou becoming hokage. He would have to fight Danzou and kill him, destroy his organization, and change konoha. That would be the real revolution, but Kishimoto did the thing in a shonen manga easy way, let Tobi and Sasuke do the bad side of the job, and give to Naruto as a gift the changed villages. As we can see the villages are already in an alliance, everybody fighting together as if nothing happened in the past, and Naruto didn't have to do anything about it. He was looking at animal penises on a distant island while the world changed
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Old 2012-03-02, 21:30   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Shiryuu View Post
The Uchiha as a whole are just stupid. Why even bother planning a coup if they could've just left the village entirely and set up somewhere else?
The Senjuu as a whole are just stupid. Why even bother agreeing to live peacefully with the Uchiha if they were just gonna ostracize and discriminate them?
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Old 2012-03-02, 23:49   Link #89
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Tsunade deserves to have one good fight before she retires. Oro got it with Sarutobi, Jiraiya got it with Pain, Tsunade has never had a proper fight. I hope Kishi doesn't pull his usual sexist bullshit and ignore her.

On another note, Kishi really really sucks at writing female characters. I mean, I knew it all along but this chapter just made me I dare anyone to find the most timid and humble woman they know, and tell her she is weak because she is a woman. See how that works out for you. I dunno, maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe women in Japan accept this kind of crap. It's the only explanation I can think of for not having heard on the news about a mob of angry women breaking into a certain mangaka's house and flaying him alive. /rant

How the hell do the physical differences between male and female justify sexism when everything is powered by friggin' chakra anyway! /rant2
oh yes, he does suck at it. i couldn't name one good female character in naruto that could kick a truly powerful guy's butt and someone who really matters in the plot. tsunade was hyped up in the beginning and i thought she would be the exception but when i saw her freeze at the sight of blood because of some lame trauma, i knew she would be as lame as the others. sakura should have been built up considering she was one of the main characters when the series began. and although the time-skip gave her a chance to shine, it was short-lived. the mizukage showed some promise but she lacks character development big time! no backstory, no nothing. seriously kishi, do you have anything against women?
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Old 2012-03-03, 00:26   Link #90
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The Senjuu as a whole are just stupid. Why even bother agreeing to live peacefully with the Uchiha if they were just gonna ostracize and discriminate them?
I'd say it was pretty smart. They didn't have to fight them anymore, and they still got to make fun of them.
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Old 2012-03-03, 02:54   Link #91
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I'd say it was pretty smart. They didn't have to fight them anymore, and they still got to make fun of them.
So you agree with Sasuke that the village was laughing at the Uchiha. Looks like Sasuke made the right decision after all.

On another note, The Senjuu ask for peace and then they kill the Uchiha in their sleep. The Senjuu are righteous indeed. No doubt, these are the good guys.
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Old 2012-03-03, 02:58   Link #92
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So you agree with Sasuke that the village was laughing at the Uchiha. Looks like Sasuke made the right decision after all.

On another note, The Senjuu ask for peace and then they kill the Uchiha in their sleep. The Senjuu are righteous indeed. No doubt, these are the good guys.
exactly. I've always thought sasuke was justified. the only problem is that the young ninja in konoha never knew about any of this, much like the young uchiha not knowing of the coup they were planning, so in the end it is justified on sasuke's part. even naruto has acknowledged this
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Old 2012-03-03, 03:19   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
So you agree with Sasuke that the village was laughing at the Uchiha. Looks like Sasuke made the right decision after all.

On another note, The Senjuu ask for peace and then they kill the Uchiha in their sleep. The Senjuu are righteous indeed. No doubt, these are the good guys.
You don't kill people for making fun of you. That's the mentality of something that's less than a retard.

The Senju were pretty much extinct except for Tsunade way before the Uchiha got wiped off the face of whatever planet this manga takes place in. You're better off blaming the Hyuuga clan.
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Old 2012-03-03, 08:08   Link #94
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I hope Kishi doesn't pull his usual sexist bullshit and ignore her.

On another note, Kishi really really sucks at writing female characters. I mean, I knew it all along but this chapter just made me I dare anyone to find the most timid and humble woman they know, and tell her she is weak because she is a woman. See how that works out for you. I dunno, maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe women in Japan accept this kind of crap. It's the only explanation I can think of for not having heard on the news about a mob of angry women breaking into a certain mangaka's house and flaying him alive. /rant
Wait. I'm confuzzeled.

How did you get the Bad Guy making a sexist remark, and Tsunade replying (I'm paraphasing here) "Yeah I'm a girl, but I'm not weak and I'm about to kick your ass" as Kichi being incrdibly sexist in this chapter?
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Old 2012-03-03, 09:26   Link #95
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How did you get the Bad Guy making a sexist remark, and Tsunade replying (I'm paraphasing here) "Yeah I'm a girl, but I'm not weak and I'm about to kick your ass" as Kichi being incredibly sexist in this chapter?
Because she says "and it's true that I'm a girl..." as if it's a disease. Might as well have said "I can only use ninjutsu" and it would be less of a handicap
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Old 2012-03-03, 10:03   Link #96
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You don't kill people for making fun of you. That's the mentality of something that's less than a retard.

The Senju were pretty much extinct except for Tsunade way before the Uchiha got wiped off the face of whatever planet this manga takes place in. You're better off blaming the Hyuuga clan.
No, Sasuke's reasoning was that they killed his clan and were laughing behind his back. All along everyone's been arguing that nobody is laughing at the Uchiha but just now you agreed that they are. Therefore all of Sasuke's arguments are correct.

The clans in Konoha are possibly offshoots or in someway related to the Senjuu. Either way, the Senjuu lay the foundations for what Konoha is. During the day they proclaim the "will of fire" and during the night they kill people in their sleep.

Probably the only reason Hashirama proposed peace was because he took one look at the hardcore crazy-eyed Uchiha, glanced over to his weak-ass treehugging Senjuu and thought "I can probably take out the big guy, but the rest of them are going to slaughter my bandwaggoning little friends." So he proposes peace, he saves his clan from getting slaughtered and turns a war into a 1 on 1 fight. What a coincidence, Naruto did the same to Sasuke.
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Old 2012-03-03, 10:28   Link #97
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The Senju were pretty much extinct except for Tsunade way before the Uchiha got wiped off the face of whatever planet this manga takes place in.
that's actually always bothered me. everyone always talks about the uchiha getting wiped out, but what the frikk happened to the senju? it's like they were the mayans or something and took a spaceship to namek.

I guess they all could have just renamed themselves as sarutobi, hatake, namekaze, etc... but there's no explanation for it. or maybe all the males died off and all the females married and got new names... it's really a bit weird given all the talk of senju and uchiha lately
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Old 2012-03-03, 10:34   Link #98
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Because she says "and it's true that I'm a girl..." as if it's a disease. Might as well have said "I can only use ninjutsu" and it would be less of a handicap
That's more a matter of opinion, considering her very next words were "And even if you're wrong when you say I'm a weak woman"

and then goes on to say that that shit don't matter, all that matters is that she inherited the will of fire with the implication that she's about to try and kick some ass.

You're focusing too much on the words, and not looking deeply enough into her meaning and the context, which can only be grasped with what comes after.

Tsunade is basically saying - "You're right on all counts (though not neccissarily the weak part), and now I'm going to show you the strength of the Will of Fire"

In some ways you can interpret it as Tsunading saying that it doesn't matter if she's a girl, all that matters is that she hs that resolve.
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Old 2012-03-03, 11:26   Link #99
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I don't understand why everyone wanted more out of the Uchiha reunion. Like someone else said, it happened only because Kishimoto wanted to draw more Uchiha panels/for fanservice. There is nothing that could have possibly served by having them talk at length or fight.

There is no purpose in them talking because Itachi has already told Sasuke everything he has to say, and Tobi told him the truth about Itachi. Sasuke knows everything, and he explicitly decided in spite of that to go against Itachi's wishes and his dream, and destroy Konoha. There is nothing Itachi could say to change his mind, Sasuke already decided he didn't care what Itachi wanted.

They cannot fight because Itachi must stop Kabuto and Sasuke has to be at full strength against Naruto.

I am getting tired of the Hashirama retconning though. I long for the say when the Third was the strongest Hokage and the "god of shinobi" without having any ridiculous powers.
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Old 2012-03-03, 11:55   Link #100
Ulquiorra
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I sometimes wish Naruto was more like Skyrim. A world where 110 lb. women can swing 50 lb. steel greatswords the same as 230 lb. guys. And no one cares because it is a fictional world. Where being a woman doesn't mean some sort of handicap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
After Asuma's death Shikamaru did a very stupid thing, he surely did know with the logical part of his brain that he has no chance, but his emotions took complete control over his brain. All human are like that, no exceptions. And i don't mean this as a negative thing, we humans are not machines, it's all right to behave like they did in those situations.
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and shikamarus emotions doesnt. i have often thought about this. it was not a great idea to go after hidan and kakuza to begin with, but shika emotions got in the way. think about it. at first only ino and chouji were going on that mission, and they didnt even know the full abilities of kakuza, who everyone seem to sense was the stonger of the two. does that sound smart to anyone. also team asuma still stuggled against them and THAT WAS WITH KAKASHI OF ALL PEOPLE. what do you think would have happen if team asuma would have fought them with just ino and chouji. we all know they would have been killed in ten seconds, that is just the truth of the matter i think.
I just read those chapters again. Funny thing. Shikamaru was not portrayed as crazy, irrational, or in the wrong like Sasuke has been. He was actually pretty calm and in control of his emotions. Tsunade was angry with him, but he immediately got the backing of Kakashi. If he were wrong, would Kishi have made Kakashi stand by him? The guy who said revenge destroys people? If Shikamaru's judgement was clouded, would Kishi allow him to think of a plan? Much different than Sasuke. I am just going by what Kishi wrote. If you find inconsistencies with the story, than blame Kishi.

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No, Sasuke's reasoning was that they killed his clan and were laughing behind his back. All along everyone's been arguing that nobody is laughing at the Uchiha but just now you agreed that they are. Therefore all of Sasuke's arguments are correct.
Oh please. Sasuke is mentally ill from being lied to his whole life. Both from Konoha and his brother. He has no coherent argument. Nor is he being portrayed as correct if you are reading the manga. Not even Kishimoto lusts after Sasuke that much to portray him as being correct in wanting to destroy all of Konoha.

Seriously. Go and look at the panel where Sasuke thinks the Konoha 11 are standing around laughing about Itachi dying for the village. The guy is damaged. That's why Naruto wants to save him.

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Probably the only reason Hashirama proposed peace was because he took one look at the hardcore crazy-eyed Uchiha, glanced over to his weak-ass treehugging Senjuu and thought "I can probably take out the big guy, but the rest of them are going to slaughter my bandwaggoning little friends." So he proposes peace, he saves his clan from getting slaughtered and turns a war into a 1 on 1 fight. What a coincidence, Naruto did the same to Sasuke.
I wish Sasuke would of went after the Konoha 11. It would of been a whole lot more interesting than this Itachi talk. But Kishi wanted to draw more panels of Uchiha wank. So whatever.

No matter how much Sasuke talks about destroying Konoha, he can't lay one finger on any ninja from the village. It's all hot air from Kishimoto. All that matters now is Sasuke's eventual redemption. Hell, he has been a great boon to Konoha. Getting rid of Orochimaru and Danzou. They should give him a promotion when Naruto brings him home.
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