AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2014-02-09, 17:52   Link #1
Crusify_me
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Taiwan: Is democracy and military the only reasons Taiwan is not a part of China?

Taiwan, despite having a democratically elected president, its own military, and its own society and culture which is vastly different than that of Communist China, is not officially recognized as a sovereign state in the UN.

The only reasons that Taiwan is not a part of China today has to be that the Taiwanese people are able to elect their own president, and that Taiwan has its own military. If you strip a country of its land, its right to elect its government (democracy) and its means to protect itself (army), then you literally have lost all sovereignty.
Crusify_me is offline  
Old 2014-02-09, 21:52   Link #2
bhl88
Otaku Apprentice
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Unseen Horizon
Send a message via MSN to bhl88 Send a message via Yahoo to bhl88
Somehow I feel that Taiwan only existed to oppose China...
__________________

Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!
bhl88 is offline  
Old 2014-02-09, 23:42   Link #3
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
The story goes, that back when mainland is still part of the red menace, America offered Taiwan's leaders the option of independence as "Taiwan", and be recognised by the UN as a country. But the Taiwanese leaders were retarded and insist that they need to "reconquer" the mainland, and as such they can never give up their claim that they own all of China. Hence "Republic of China", or ROC.

Then the Cold War ended, China became a trading partner with America, and all of a sudden Taiwan couldn't go independent even if they wanted to. All because of some demented old men who had fantasies of regaining past glories.

EDIT: Just to prove how delusional they were, an English world atlas that was sold in Taiwan back then, had an added page that claim not just that the ROC own all of China, but that they even deny Mongolia's independence! Because, the government reasoned, Mongolia never asked the ROC if they can go independent or not, so their independence didn't happen!
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 01:13   Link #4
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
Taiwanese are culturally Chinese to a similar extent that people from Guangdong, Shanghai, and other places that don't naturally speak Mandarin are. I wish that English had a better way of expressing the difference between 中國 and 中華, as I've met many Taiwanese who say they are the latter but not the former.

EDIT: I've heard another legend that goes like this — in the 80s and early 90s, there were serious negotiations going on to set up a system for Taiwan similar to HK, but stuff like the Tiananmen massacre and the strait crisis got in the way and killed the prospect. This is what happens when you have a country run by communists try to deal with non-communist ones.
LeoXiao is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 06:19   Link #5
MrTerrorist
Takao Tsundere Cruiser
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Classified
Also unlike China, Taiwan have fond memories under Japanese rule due to the fact how the Japanese government help improve the country's infrastructure and treated the natives better due to Taiwan being their Model Colony.

To give you an idea how fond they are of Japan, when the Kuomintang took over, the people hated the new government due to their corruption and discrimination against natives which many of the older generation wishing for the good old days. Due to Japanese influence, Taiwanese Mandarin is different from Mainland Mandarin.

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
__________________
MrTerrorist is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 06:22   Link #6
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Taiwanese are culturally Chinese to a similar extent that people from Guangdong, Shanghai, and other places that don't naturally speak Mandarin are. I wish that English had a better way of expressing the difference between 中國 and 中華, as I've met many Taiwanese who say they are the latter but not the former.

EDIT: I've heard another legend that goes like this in the 80s and early 90s, there were serious negotiations going on to set up a system for Taiwan similar to HK, but stuff like the Tiananmen massacre and the strait crisis got in the way and killed the prospect. This is what happens when you have a country run by communists try to deal with non-communist ones.
Culturally, I think Taiwan is like a Chinese Japan. They have adopted quite alot of norms that are similar to that of the Japanese.

Even their lolis are just as cute as their Japanese counterparts.



As for language, they speak Hokkien, or Fujian.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 06:27   Link #7
Seitsuki
Onee!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
I...can't say I'm surprised that's the one aspect of the topic you seem to have focused on.

OT: my TW friends really don't seem to terribly care about the whole issue, but they do emphasise that they don't consider themselves part of China. Guessing its a cultural thing by now.
__________________
thanks to Patchy ♥
Seitsuki is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 06:46   Link #8
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
I...can't say I'm surprised that's the one aspect of the topic you seem to have focused on.
I seriously doubt there would be a difference between a Japanese loli telling me "お兄ちゃんひどいよ!" or a Taiwanese loli saying "哥哥真坏!". If both are present I'll take both of them home!

Quote:
OT: my TW friends really don't seem to terribly care about the whole issue, but they do emphasise that they don't consider themselves part of China. Guessing its a cultural thing by now.
They never did. But China is pretty insistent that Taiwan belongs to them and they have hinted that they will take it by force if necessary.

Just fcking leave them alone already.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 07:14   Link #9
Seitsuki
Onee!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
What the heck are you doing for them to say something like th....

...Hello? Police?
__________________
thanks to Patchy ♥
Seitsuki is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 07:20   Link #10
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 29
My mother's family comes from Taiwan while my father's from the mainland Fukien province. While they were alive, my grandparents spoke distinctively different accents in their Mandarin and Fukien.
MeoTwister5 is online now  
Old 2014-02-10, 07:29   Link #11
Fireminer
Lumine Passio
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 8
I feel pretty weird when picking up so many articles on Vietnamese papers that talk about China's [possible] re-take of Taiwan by force. Guess that after Taiwan, South East Asia Sea is next.

Anyway, America won't do any good for now. She is too tied up with China. Furthermore, Japan, Taiwan and Korea is arguing between themselves. Especially Japan, with the PM's recent controversial visit. Satellite Theory - If America allows these countries to strengthen in order to retaliate China, what would stop them from doing that with America herself? America's allies need a lesson to remind them who they are. And who is the better teacher than China? It's like Czech before WWII 0 - A Sheep. So, when China decides to step over the boundary, it will all be over.

Either way, Russia will get a lot from this!
Fireminer is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 15:36   Link #12
SoldierOfDarkness
The Dark Knight
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The story goes, that back when mainland is still part of the red menace, America offered Taiwan's leaders the option of independence as "Taiwan", and be recognised by the UN as a country. But the Taiwanese leaders were retarded and insist that they need to "reconquer" the mainland, and as such they can never give up their claim that they own all of China. Hence "Republic of China", or ROC.

Then the Cold War ended, China became a trading partner with America, and all of a sudden Taiwan couldn't go independent even if they wanted to. All because of some demented old men who had fantasies of regaining past glories.

EDIT: Just to prove how delusional they were, an English world atlas that was sold in Taiwan back then, had an added page that claim not just that the ROC own all of China, but that they even deny Mongolia's independence! Because, the government reasoned, Mongolia never asked the ROC if they can go independent or not, so their independence didn't happen!
There are some who would argue that Chiang got the last laugh as the current China that exists right now reflects more of Chiang's vision than Mao's.

In any case a lot of people seem to forget that when Chiang took control of Taiwan it was literally a one-party leadership that performed their own purges.

It wasn't until the late 80's and early 90's that they started having "opposition" parties.

In any case even if Taiwan were to reunite with China it'd probably be the same as Hong Kong, AKA SAR zone.
SoldierOfDarkness is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 17:51   Link #13
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
In any case even if Taiwan were to reunite with China it'd probably be the same as Hong Kong, AKA SAR zone.
No, it would only happen if it is done via military invasion. This is the long and short of it. There is no re-uniting because the only people who think they are part of China, came FROM China, and they are all dead now. I have no illusions that China can invade and kill half the island's population in the process, AND get away with it. But don't even think anyone in Taiwan care about being a part of "China" anymore.
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 17:55   Link #14
SoldierOfDarkness
The Dark Knight
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
No, it would only happen if it is done via military invasion. This is the long and short of it. There is no re-uniting because the only people who think they are part of China, came FROM China, and they are all dead now. I have no illusions that China can invade and kill half the island's population in the process, AND get away with it. But don't even think anyone in Taiwan care about being a part of "China" anymore.
No I meant that "IF" they were to reunite.

And that's a big "IF"

Military invasion, well there's nothing to be gained from it anyways so chances are they'll just continue the status quo unless something dramatically changes the political landscape.
SoldierOfDarkness is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 19:42   Link #15
Rovert10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
If America allows these countries to strengthen in order to retaliate China, what would stop them from doing that with America herself? America's allies need a lesson to remind them who they are. And who is the better teacher than China?
The Japanese Self Defense Force already has the capacity to screw any Chinese hopes of projecting force beyond their own coastline.

It may be a "Self Defense" force but built up as a projection of power in the Pacific if needed especially with how close the US and Japan work together.

China has a shit-ton of people in their military forces but sure as hell have no logistical capacity to project any of that. Its Navy is outdated as well as its Air Force. You can't use a number advantage if you can't even make it to the coast line to land. Invading China is suicide but that's all the Chinese Military can do at the moment which is defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
They never did. But China is pretty insistent that Taiwan belongs to them and they have hinted that they will take it by force if necessary.

Just fcking leave them alone already.
They won't take it by force unless the USN suddenly stops patrolling the area. That won't happen. China likes to wave its dick around only for the USN and JMSDF to laugh in China's face.

Point is that China may seem like the big baddie over the horizon but the situation is definitely not as grave as you may initially think. Media really loves to overplay it.

Anyways apart from China's Military capacity.


Coming from a family who lives exclusively in Taiwan (well except myself and my immediate family in the US), we honestly don't care at all about the mainland these days. We're too busy dealing with our own internal political bullshit.

Taiwanese Hokkien though from what I've seen. Is one of those dividing lines between "Native" and "Chinese Immigrant". And it really does show.
My mother's side came from the mainland after my grandfather moved after WW2 after fighting on the democratic Nationalist Army. They have no knowledge of Hokkien.
My father's side all know Hokkien due to being there for a much longer time.
Rovert10 is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 20:23   Link #16
Rovert10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Yeah, we're just sitting here to act as a "buffer zone" of sorts. Really that's probably the biggest reason why Taiwan is still around after all these years.

Last edited by Flower; 2014-02-11 at 00:10. Reason: Removed deleted post portions quoted....
Rovert10 is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 21:05   Link #17
Fireminer
Lumine Passio
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 8
Japan export value to China: 18 percent of the total export value. Equal to US to be the 1st important customer.

China export value to Japan: 7 percent of the total export value. Japan is the 4th important customer of China.

China main imported goods from Japan: Technology goods, Hi-end consumer product, automobile. Oh, and capitol, if you counted it - it's more than 6.5 billion dollar.

Japan main imported good from China: Food and Industrial Materials.

Taiwan export value to China: 42 percent (including Hong Kong), the largest partner.

Taiwan's mainly imported goods: Raw material, fuel,... Industrial component in the whole. Japan is the biggest partner (17.6 percent), folowed by China (16.1).

A war on economy. Who would be crippled by who first? Remember that China is one of the World biggest debt holder, as well as the owner of many critical materials for modern industry.

And beside, China (and Vietnam) has realized that the People War is part of the past. An arm race is going on between East Asia countries. A gold mine for Russia and Israel companies - too bad that America hasn't realize the full potential. If the Abeconomy could really restore Japan to its "Magical Period", then the More the Merrier!

Last edited by Fireminer; 2014-02-10 at 21:36.
Fireminer is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 23:25   Link #18
LeoXiao
提倡自我工業化
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 22
White Terror = tens of thousands
Great Leap Forward = tens of millions

If China had 1000 times more people than Taiwan, you might be able to to claim some sort of moral equivalency between the KMT and CCP, but seeing that China doesn't even equal 100 Taiwans, and since the Great Leap Forward was only one of several Maoist holocausts, the CCP is objectively worse by a couple dozen times.

The Taiwanese by and large have a good attitude towards Japan. A few of course have overly rosy or downright incorrect views about Japan's role in history, but those kinds of people exist everywhere. The Taiwanese attitude on Japan is certainly more healthy than the mainland equivalent, which is irrational hatred. Even the Russians don't hate the Germans as much.
LeoXiao is offline  
Old 2014-02-10, 23:57   Link #19
AnimeFan188
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The Taiwanese attitude on Japan is certainly more healthy than the mainland equivalent, which is irrational hatred. Even the Russians don't hate the Germans as much.
The Russians stomped the Nazis pretty decisively during the war, even to the point
of marching into Berlin. They also got to dominate East Germany (along with the rest of
Eastern Europe) for decades afterwards.

The Chinese got no similar satisfaction, so their sense of entitlement is pretty strong.

There's also the Chinese communist leadership stirring the nationalist pot to dampen
internal dissent.
AnimeFan188 is offline  
Old 2014-02-11, 00:04   Link #20
Flower
Purrrfectly cuddly! ^^
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Yamoto, Akiba, Log Horizon Guild Hall
Gonna hop in the thread right now and ask that discussion be kept polite and civil. If not the thread will be closed real fast.

Discussions around political issues involving China and other countries has become an all too common topic of late for people to go crazy and insulting around. So I am posting in advance to ask to keep things under control in here.

Okay? Good. ^^
__________________
Flower is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.