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Old 2012-03-18, 18:19   Link #101
Sasukemaru
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I agree the most gifted young ninja surpass their teaches, but the point i was making is it seems with the exception of narutos generation, each generation as a whole seems to have gotten weaker. Also i dont think any of the sannin surpassed sarutobi in his prime, bu like i stated, shinobi like itachi took things to a new level, but as a whole the generations have been getting weaker and weaker

Hashirama madara generation > 3rd raikage/hokage/kazekage hanzo generation > sannin nagato generation > 4th hokage/raikage/kazekage generation > naruto generation > kakashi generation

I got lazy at the end with naming names, but my point is most of the present kages dont even compare to their predecessors. I think it may have something to do with the times becoming increasingly more peaceful and stable.
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Old 2012-03-18, 18:40   Link #102
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
true, but it's based on interpretation. the argument could be made that the lesson means that the brightest students surpass their masters. I never took it to mean that all ninja of a generation surpass the previous one.
I'd say you're right. Because that would be ridiculous. Kakashi's words just reflect the natural order of things. As the upcoming generation get stronger, they surpass the previous generation because ninja as humans, fight, age and die. No one ever stays on top forever, even the ones that try to cheat death like Kakuzu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasukemaru
Also i dont think any of the sannin surpassed sarutobi in his prime, bu like i stated, shinobi like itachi took things to a new level, but as a whole the generations have been getting weaker and weaker
Every generation will only have a handful of standouts and someone coming along having power that surpasses anything ever seen probably only occurs once every few generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timemask
Maybe Kabuto's rear snake is for breaking him out of genjutsu, if the snake has been trained to put its chakra into Kabuto.
Yeah, james suggested the same thing. I think Kakashi explained that having your chakra disrupted doesn't work against Tsukiyomi. But Kabuto has something planned for it I imagine.
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Old 2012-03-18, 19:12   Link #103
Ero-Senn1n
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Kabuto himself shouldn't be able to put up some serious fight against these two. These two can beat the shit out of Orochimaru (Sasuke has now EMS, he had more than one powerup after he turned against Orochimaru), so why would Kabuto be able to fight them if his master Orochimaru was not able? That would not make sense. So the only thing that makes sense is if either Kabuto summons back Madara to save his ass or he summons other people. Letting Kabuto become a mad scientist type guy like Dr.Gero was is ok, but letting him become a super-powered ninja out of nowhere would be complete nonsense. I think Kishimoto might follow the pattern that was in Dragon Ball with Dr. Gero, sure the scientist upgraded himself by making of himself an android, but he was still very weak when compared to the top guys, in fact one of his own creations killed him. So Kabuto being killed by something that he created and maybe will try to use just now is quite possible in my opinion. And right now Madara seems to be the best choice for that. That would spare the kages on one hand, but more importantly if Kabuto dies then Edo-Madara remains in this world and we have another super-villain for Naruto.
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Old 2012-03-18, 19:46   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Kabuto himself shouldn't be able to put up some serious fight against these two. These two can beat the shit out of Orochimaru (Sasuke has now EMS, he had more than one powerup after he turned against Orochimaru), so why would Kabuto be able to fight them if his master Orochimaru was not able? That would not make sense. So the only thing that makes sense is if either Kabuto summons back Madara to save his ass or he summons other people. Letting Kabuto become a mad scientist type guy like Dr.Gero was is ok, but letting him become a super-powered ninja out of nowhere would be complete nonsense. I think Kishimoto might follow the pattern that was in Dragon Ball with Dr. Gero, sure the scientist upgraded himself by making of himself an android, but he was still very weak when compared to the top guys, in fact one of his own creations killed him. So Kabuto being killed by something that he created and maybe will try to use just now is quite possible in my opinion. And right now Madara seems to be the best choice for that. That would spare the kages on one hand, but more importantly if Kabuto dies then Edo-Madara remains in this world and we have another super-villain for Naruto.
Orochi was greatly weakened when Sasuke attacked him. Sasuke probably waited for the exact moment Orochi was weakened due to expiration of the Body-Transfer kinjitsu and while Kabuto walked away to strike. I won't say that Susake got a lucky strike by pinning Orochi's hands but the odds were against Orochi that entire fight. I seem to recall Orochi like to wear down his next victim with battle royals before taking their body. This was another factor to his downfall when the roles of predator and food was reversed.
Kabuto seems abit more sadistic than Orochi and he should have the abilities to back it up by now. I assume he has access to all of the KinJitsus that Orochi collected throughout the series since he knows EdoTensei.
I'm not gonna count Kabuto out until his soul is crushed or sealed because death is meaningless in this manga.
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Old 2012-03-18, 20:11   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
I think this war has exposed the biggest lies told in the series

Every generation does not surpass the previous, the only one to do that has been narutos generation with kakashis. The 3rd hokage isn't the strongest ninja to ever live, the so6p did in fact exist, and there has never been a kid younger then 12 year old naruto and stronger then pts kakashi. Oddly enough all of this misinformation came from kakashi. Ppl should stop taking what he says as gospel, and consider the fact what he says is usually wrong
I think you are wrong in one thing... I think a 12 old Itachi was stronguer then Kakashi at that time.
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Old 2012-03-18, 22:15   Link #106
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by DarthDestroiar View Post
I think you are wrong in one thing... I think a 12 old Itachi was stronguer then Kakashi at that time.
12 year old Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. According to the timeline that's around the age he cut off Oro's hand and basically called him a bitch.
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Old 2012-03-19, 04:22   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
I agree the most gifted young ninja surpass their teaches, but the point i was making is it seems with the exception of narutos generation, each generation as a whole seems to have gotten weaker. Also i dont think any of the sannin surpassed sarutobi in his prime, bu like i stated, shinobi like itachi took things to a new level, but as a whole the generations have been getting weaker and weaker

I got lazy at the end with naming names, but my point is most of the present kages dont even compare to their predecessors. I think it may have something to do with the times becoming increasingly more peaceful and stable.

Kakashi from the start of Shippunden when Naruto came back to
the Village and along with Saruka to take the bells of Kakashi's waist in
training, said that Naruto had already surpassed him!. and that was
without Naruto even reaching Sage mode?.
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Old 2012-03-19, 10:11   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yeah, james suggested the same thing. I think Kakashi explained that having your chakra disrupted doesn't work against Tsukiyomi. But Kabuto has something planned for it I imagine.
I agree that the snake can't save Kabuto from Tsukiyomi since it only take a few seconds to knock out someone unless the snake is super fast at putting chakra in Kabuto.

Kabuto may not know this which is why I think he may try have the snake break him out of genjutsu but it probably won't work.

@Apollian I think at that time Naruto only surpassed Kakashi in attack power / stanima etc but Kakashi was still stronger overall with his Mangekyou and years of experience back then (not counting the Kyuubi's power).
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Old 2012-03-19, 12:11   Link #109
Ero-Senn1n
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Orochi was greatly weakened when Sasuke attacked him. ...
That is why i added that Sasuke was then much weaker than his current power. Sasuke has EMS, which is above MS. Itachi beat easily Orochimaru two times, so with EMS he wouldn't be too much trouble for Sasuke. Orochimaru was praised by the 3rd hokage as the one who has the ability to become the next hokage, and Kabuto was just a guy who served under Orochimaru. Sure Kabuto got a lot more screen time than an average servant of an evil boss, but that doesn't mean he can just magically become stronger than Orochimaru. Of course he did thank Naruto for inspireing him to surpass his former master, so we can say that Naruto's magic speeches that help characters to power up was successful even in Kabuto's case. But in my opinion the powerup that we have already seen is just enough, to make Kabuto so powerful that he can fight two MS/EMS guys at the same time would be stupid. Of course i might be wrong, maybe it will be explained that Kabuto had this potential in him the whole time, but i think coming up with such a plot twist would be lame and not fitting Kabuto's mad scientist character.

And i didn't mean that Kabuto can't win, just that he can't win by himself, he needs to use either Edo-Madara or summon some other Edo-Tensei guys (Sasuke's parents or others).
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Old 2012-03-19, 18:09   Link #110
Ulquiorra
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You can make an argument that in every teacher-student relationship we have seen(Naruto/Kakashi, Naruto/Jiraiya, Sasuke/Orochimaru, Shikamaru/Asuma, etc), the student has now surpassed the teacher. So that is what Kishimoto might have been talking about with the next generation surpassing the previous one. Obviously Tenten was not going to be stronger than A or Oonki just because she came from a later generation. .

The only one that breaks this chain is Tsunade and Sakura. Sakura is light-years from surpassing Tsunade. Kishi messed up there.
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Old 2012-03-19, 23:44   Link #111
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You can make an argument that in every teacher-student relationship we have seen(Naruto/Kakashi, Naruto/Jiraiya, Sasuke/Orochimaru, Shikamaru/Asuma, etc), the student has now surpassed the teacher. So that is what Kishimoto might have been talking about with the next generation surpassing the previous one. Obviously Tenten was not going to be stronger than A or Oonki just because she came from a later generation. .

The only one that breaks this chain is Tsunade and Sakura. Sakura is light-years from surpassing Tsunade. Kishi messed up there.
I gave up waiting for Gai's students to prove they're worth the air they breathe when Gai opened the seventh gate against Kisame.
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Old 2012-03-20, 11:24   Link #112
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I gave up waiting for Gai's students to prove they're worth the air they breathe when Gai opened the seventh gate against Kisame.
Late bloomers obviously.
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Old 2012-03-20, 13:50   Link #113
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Or, they could wait till Gai gets old and stop with the Spring-Time-Youth nonsense and let nature take its course. By that time anyone could surpass the previous generation. The author could be going somewhere with this after all. Previous generations will get old and their powers will rot away. It's not a moral victory, but the next generation will surpass the previous generation... "eventually".
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Old 2012-03-20, 14:24   Link #114
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You can make an argument that in every teacher-student relationship we have seen(Naruto/Kakashi, Naruto/Jiraiya, Sasuke/Orochimaru, Shikamaru/Asuma, etc), the student has now surpassed the teacher. So that is what Kishimoto might have been talking about with the next generation surpassing the previous one. Obviously Tenten was not going to be stronger than A or Oonki just because she came from a later generation. .

The only one that breaks this chain is Tsunade and Sakura. Sakura is light-years from surpassing Tsunade. Kishi messed up there.
Tsunade is around 50 so Sakura has 34 years to surpass to surpass her. Sakura is only 16 so you can't expect her to be at Tsunade's level yet but I think Sakura should have been given more power-ups like Naruto / Sasuke.

Sakura is a main character and in Team 7 so she will probably surpass Tsunade at least in power.
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Old 2012-03-20, 15:31   Link #115
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^ That is one thing that I absolutely do not want to see happening. After all the pathetic displays of helplessness by Sakura I couldn't bare to watch her surpass someone like Tsunade, no matter how much time passes.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:27   Link #116
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Or, they could wait till Gai gets old and stop with the Spring-Time-Youth nonsense and let nature take its course. By that time anyone could surpass the previous generation. The author could be going somewhere with this after all. Previous generations will get old and their powers will rot away. It's not a moral victory, but the next generation will surpass the previous generation... "eventually".
In his own way, Orochimaru highlighted this exact phenomenon during his battle against Hiruzen. He spent a good chunk of his dialog mocking him for how much weaker the "god of shinobi" had become due to age and boasting about having a jutsu that allowed one to avoid this. It was quite poetic that the physical drawbacks of hastily using this jutsu he was so proud of are exactly what allowed him to be killed by the next generation.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:46   Link #117
Ero-Senn1n
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Tsunade is around 50 so Sakura has 34 years to surpass to surpass her. Sakura is only 16 so you can't expect her to be at Tsunade's level yet but I think Sakura should have been given more power-ups like Naruto / Sasuke.

Sakura is a main character and in Team 7 so she will probably surpass Tsunade at least in power.
Well, surpassing the previous generation is not so hard if they teach you all that they invented and then you can build on that. So when Kishimoto lets Kakashi say that, he just states the obvious, it has been true in our history too. The best example is science, but it's true for arts, politics, religion, martial arts and many other things. Of course it's a general idea, so anyone can find an example of the opposite. In Naruto we see a lot of examples: Kakashi invents the chidori and teaches it to Sasuke, then Sasuke perfects it. The 4th hokage invents rasengan, Naruto perfects it. So far the only exception is Sakura, who didn't really come up with her own improvments over what she learned from Tsunade. But that might change in this war.
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Old 2012-03-20, 20:51   Link #118
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Tsunade is around 50 so Sakura has 34 years to surpass to surpass her. Sakura is only 16 so you can't expect her to be at Tsunade's level yet but I think Sakura should have been given more power-ups like Naruto / Sasuke.

Sakura is a main character and in Team 7 so she will probably surpass Tsunade at least in power.
Both Naruto and Sasuke are 16 and have passed two Sannin in their 50s. And since Kishimoto made Team 7 a Generation Xerox copy of the Sannin, than it was expected that Sakura would also eventually pass her Sannin teacher. Not in 34 years. We are not going to be following these characters when they are 50. But in the current timeline.

Unfortunately, whatever development Kishi planned for Sakura went the way of "The Year of Kakashi." Not only is she worlds away from Tsunade right now, the audience is left to feel she will never come close to her teacher. Unless Sakura breaks out Byakugou in the next few chapters to help Naruto. And that would likely anger the fanbase and only confuse the audience even more.

Sakura is not really a main character anymore and she has to be judged against the other K12 and not Naruto and Sasuke.
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Old 2012-03-20, 23:30   Link #119
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^agreed. also naruto and sasuke were given extremely powerful lineages. if sakura was a descendant of the senju (which would have been cool, but is far too late to bust out now) then I could see her advancing rapidly. but not as some random kunoichi from a linage most likely less powerful than Ino's
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Old 2012-03-21, 00:51   Link #120
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Chapter 579 thread has been created. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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