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Old 2013-11-12, 04:19   Link #1061
JustRob
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
Cool it Rob. Name calling won't be tolerated. You've been doing well thus far, but if the argument is starting to get frustrating then you may stop by not replying any longer.

What you need to realize that your side of the argument is pretty hard to swallow for most people. What you also don't seem to acknowledge that whatever positive intention Danzo may have had about achieving long term peace had also gotten mixed up and polluted by his own political ambition. In a hindsight, the goal he set aside to get to peace didn't seem any better than let things be as they were. His intention doesn't reflect his own action as has been shown time and time again. As our own history also shows, coercion never ever worked to achieve any form of peace. Also, there is more than one solution to every problem, but people like Danzo usually are unwilling to look for any other alternative.

For the rest of you folks, take it easy on Rob.
How is "hypocrites" name calling? It's true, as are the people who relentless try to convict Danzo. The Leaf village enjoys the peace that Danzo and Itachi helped maintain, yet you judge him. And why? Because of the oh so horrible things he's done? So his acts were immoral. So he committed crimes to achieve his objectives. As best stated by himself, niceties alone will not make the world go around. Sometimes, people like Danzo are a necessary evil.

And yes, the same is true in the real world. Do we know half the things the government does we don't know about? At the very least, we know the government of America is spying on politicians and important people as far away as Europe. So now that we know about it, we point our fingers towards them and scream about our rights to privacy. But just how many possible attacks were they able to prevent by monitoring possible danger? Time and time again tragedies have happened because nobody ever thought a person would do that. If these can be prevented by close surveillance, so be it.
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Old 2013-11-12, 05:04   Link #1062
monir
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
How is "hypocrites" name calling? It's true, as are the people who relentless try to convict Danzo. The Leaf village enjoys the peace that Danzo and Itachi helped maintain, yet you judge him. And why? Because of the oh so horrible things he's done? So his acts were immoral. So he committed crimes to achieve his objectives. As best stated by himself, niceties alone will not make the world go around. Sometimes, people like Danzo are a necessary evil.

And yes, the same is true in the real world. Do we know half the things the government does we don't know about? At the very least, we know the government of America is spying on politicians and important people as far away as Europe. So now that we know about it, we point our fingers towards them and scream about our rights to privacy. But just how many possible attacks were they able to prevent by monitoring possible danger? Time and time again tragedies have happened because nobody ever thought a person would do that. If these can be prevented by close surveillance, so be it.
I get your argument which pretty much emphasizes the point, "means to an end." It's also nice to see you start to cave in a little about what Danzo actually is "a necessary evil" which at the beginning you were unwilling to even consider.

Let me ask you one thing to see how far you are willing to go to support a guy like Danzo: would you let a guy like Danzo harm your loved ones, your family member, your children, or someone that you deeply care about because he says it will lead to peace? Where would you draw the line? You don't need to answer the question if you choose not do so since it is a bit personal.

As for US foreign policy, errr... that's a topic we better not delve into in here. There are couple of threads in the General Chat section where argument such as yours has been laid to rest more than a few times by well supported reason.

Btw, yes, calling people "hypocrites" is name-calling where the intention is to berate, insult, and etc. Don't let it get personal and don't cross the personal territory.
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Old 2013-11-12, 05:26   Link #1063
JustRob
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
I get your argument which pretty much emphasizes the point, "means to an end." It's also nice to see you start to cave in a little about what Danzo actually is "a necessary evil" which at the beginning you were unwilling to even consider.

Let me ask you one thing to see how far you are willing to go to support a guy like Danzo: would you let a guy like Danzo harm your loved ones, your family member, your children, or someone that you deeply care about because he says it will lead to peace? Where would you draw the line? You don't need to answer the question if you choose not do so since it is a bit personal.

As for US foreign policy, errr... that's a topic we better not delve into in here. There are couple of threads in the General Chat section where argument such as yours has been laid to rest more than a few times by well supported reason.

Btw, yes, calling people "hypocrites" is name-calling where the intention is to berate, insult, and etc. Don't let it get personal and don't cross the personal territory.
Ofcourse I wouldn't. Even if knew war would break out if I didn't go along with it, I still wouldn't. Most people wouldn't, no, in fact, nobody would, save for a few individuals. Itachi was such an individual. No other man has as much dedication and integrity in this manga as he does. Unlike you or me, he witnessed war himself when he was only a child. He knew horrors most people can't fathom. And he knew that he had to do whatever he could to prevent another war. So he tried to erase any sense of emotion, and murdered his family and friends in cold blood. Any normal person couldn't bring themselves to do that, and even if they could, they would go mad after the fact.

So from that standpoint, I can see where people are coming from. Nobody can imagine that they would be willing to kill their own family, and so they convince themselves that it's probably not worth it anyways. But here, we're talking about a situation where there was no other way. Itachi knew for a fact the Uchiha were planning a bloody massacre, and he knew there was only one way to prevent it.

It must be nice to be able to pretend that what Danzo said was exaggerated, and that the massacre was probably not necessary. But this threat was real, not some vague promise of world peace and happiness for all.
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Old 2013-11-12, 05:57   Link #1064
monir
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post

So from that standpoint, I can see where people are coming from. Nobody can imagine that they would be willing to kill their own family, and so they convince themselves that it's probably not worth it anyways. But here, we're talking about a situation where there was no other way. Itachi knew for a fact the Uchiha were planning a bloody massacre, and he knew there was only one way to prevent it.
Okay, now we are going somewhere. Why did Itachi think there were no other way? If there was a plot brewing, how does it help to kill every single Uchiha? I'm sure Sasuke wasn't the only child in that clan. What about the older folks? And what about taking preventive measures by letting Konoha know what is about to transpire in the very near future? Not every Uchiha is a sharingan user!!!!

The point is, I simply have hard time imagining that killing the entire clan was the only possible way to stop a coup just because Itachi thought so as such.

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It must be nice to be able to pretend that what Danzo said was exaggerated, and that the massacre was probably not necessary. But this threat was real, not some vague promise of world peace and happiness for all.
Danzo's perspective comes from a old-bitter time where they seemed to think kill-or-be-killed was the only way to go. A middle ground can be reached and it's being shown by Naruto.
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Old 2013-11-12, 07:13   Link #1065
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
You have a wild imagination, I'll give you that. But to me, far more interesting is "what if Tsunade got her way"?

When Tsunade ordered the messenger frog, Kosuke, to retrieve Naruto, he hadn't finished his training yet. In fact, Naruto hadn't even attempted to fuse with the frogs yet. And as you know, Sage Mode can only be actived by remaining perfectly still or by fusing with the frog elders. So what would have happened, had Kosuke retrieved Naruto? He wouldn't have known about the Kyuubi interfering with the fusion, so he would go to the battlefield, without leaving Sage Mode clones, under the impression that he could go Sage Mode during battle by using fusion. After Naruto's Sage Mode had expired the first time, Pain would have utterly crushed him, taken him back, and extracted the Kyuubi from him, killing him.

That's what would have happened, if Danzo hadn't killed Kosuke the messenger frog, and delayed Naruto's return.

It's true, Danzo couldn't have known that Pain would bring everyone back to life. But as he said himself, Tsunade's healing techniques would prevent a total annihilation of the village.
We now know that the fusion didn't work because Kurama was fighting it.Under life or death circumstances Kurama would of aloud the fusion.
And you have Danzo wanting Tsunade to die and save the villagers at the same time.I know he made that statement and he might not have thought tsunade was going to almost die.
But the main point of Danzo getting his way was that Naruto would not show up during the attack at all,that's not what Danzo got but it is what Danzo wanted.
And for the record i don't think Danzo was evil,he committed treason but that's not evil.

Last edited by Monster0; 2013-11-12 at 07:44.
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Old 2013-11-12, 11:57   Link #1066
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Even if he hadn't sided with Hanzo, Hanzo would still have betrayed Akatsuki. He tried to have Kabuto and Nonou kill each other sure, but as an extra measure he sent Orochimaru to kill the possible survivor. Danzo couldn't have known Orochimaru would betray the village. Itachi was supposed to kill the entire Uchiha, including Sasuke. But as you know he failed, thus Danzo's scheme to have Sasuke killed later on. But he wasn't thorough enough here, which ended up being his death warrant. And ofcourse, Danzo had no idea about Ao's byakugan. It was unlikely for a byakugan to be there.
What you've listed is part of the reason Danzo was such a terrible influence on Konoha and the world as a whole. It's not just that he was a monster, it's that he was incompetent too. For all his so called pragmatic view Danzo's schemes always ended in failure. Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice and with Danzo's case there are much of both.
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But yeah, it's really easy to talk about someone's wrongdoings, while neglecting their good deeds. Because as I've explained above, had Danzo not delayed Naruto, the Leaf village would no longer exist by now and Akatsuki would be ruling the world.
What good deeds? The only one you list isn't even a deed but an unintended consequences to yet another of his failure and it stretches the truth beyond the breaking point anyway. The reality of it is first that if Danzo had succeeded the village would have been destroyed and Pain would have won and secondly that the delay he provoked isn't half as meaningful as you try to depict it to be.
Danzo only managed to delay Naruto for maybe ten minutes, he had already finished his training. The only thing that happened in this short time was Naruto realizing that he could use Kage Bunshin to extend the time limit of for Sage mode in movement, a realization he could also have made during the first few minutes of his fight against Pain with the same result.
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Paint Danzo as the bad guy all you want, Konoha owes its future partly to him. It's because of sacrifices people like him and Itachi made that the village remained peaceful.
Sacrifice? Please. Danzo never sacrificed anything of his own, he only ever sacrificed others for his own agenda. That's his original character flaw, that's why he couldn't bring himself to stay behind to save his comrades contrary to Sarutobi and Nidaime and why at the end of his life he turned tail and tried to run away from Sasuke "for the sake of Konoha" because he couldn't allow himself to be killed. At heart Danzo was always a coward, this was the starting point of his resentment toward Sarutobi.

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Originally Posted by monir View Post
Okay, now we are going somewhere. Why did Itachi think there were no other way? If there was a plot brewing, how does it help to kill every single Uchiha? I'm sure Sasuke wasn't the only child in that clan. What about the older folks? And what about taking preventive measures by letting Konoha know what is about to transpire in the very near future? Not every Uchiha is a sharingan user!!!!
The case of Itachi is more difficult to pinpoint within the story because of the author intent, I was only half joking about his fabulous ponytail. Contrarily to Danzo who is obviously an antagonist painted with great length by the author as an evil sob; Itachi (this pristine example of peaceful, loving and gentle man!) is meant to be seen as a tragic hero whose terrible deeds and crazed fucked up decisions cannot be held against him because he had no choice blah blah blah. And because he cannot possibly be blamed, the two others parties have to be unrealistically complete morons who systemically made the worst possible calls for decades until they reached the point of no-return - a point that was never even reached realistically speaking which is why the author doesn't really dwell into the specifics of the coup.
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Old 2013-11-12, 17:51   Link #1067
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What is said about Itachi might also be applied to Danzo.It's hard to consider things we don't know about Danzo,like his up-bringing.What was Danzo's childhood like?
What we see as child abuse is to Danzo the greatest of all honor.
However his cowardice throws a lot of doubt on his honor.Cowardice,stupidity,and resentment does not make one evil,but it does make one a bad ninja and leader.
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Old 2013-11-12, 21:00   Link #1068
itachi-san314
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The case of Itachi is more difficult to pinpoint within the story because of the author intent, I was only half joking about his fabulous ponytail. Contrarily to Danzo who is obviously an antagonist painted with great length by the author as an evil sob; Itachi (this pristine example of peaceful, loving and gentle man!) is meant to be seen as a tragic hero whose terrible deeds and crazed fucked up decisions cannot be held against him because he had no choice blah blah blah. And because he cannot possibly be blamed, the two others parties have to be unrealistically complete morons who systemically made the worst possible calls for decades until they reached the point of no-return - a point that was never even reached realistically speaking which is why the author doesn't really dwell into the specifics of the coup.
I feel like kishi could have fixed the entire itachi story by changing the rules of Kotoamatsukami to be able to be used more often and danzo having simply used it on sarutobi and itachi. then just insert a reason why danzo would have wanted sasuke to live (for his own purposes most likely like having a powerful sharingan to steal in the future or for orochimaru as part of a trade or something) and bam! no plotholes and itachi gets no blame since he was under a genjutsu even more powerful than his own
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Old 2013-11-14, 10:47   Link #1069
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So the Uchiha who 'invented' Izanami was a woman? Also, YES! I KNEW the fanon theory (I've seen more than one fic with it) that "Uchiha women can't have Sharingan" was false! Look at that Mangekyo!
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Old 2013-11-14, 11:30   Link #1070
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So the Uchiha who 'invented' Izanami was a woman? Also, YES! I KNEW the fanon theory (I've seen more than one fic with it) that "Uchiha women can't have Sharingan" was false! Look at that Mangekyo!
Filler, so not canon
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Old 2013-11-14, 14:17   Link #1071
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Yay for crappy filler.

Izanagi and Izanami do not require the Mangekyo for their use, just a Sharingan is enough (Mangekyo can be used but is not required) and yet this filler has everyone with Mangekyo even though it is supposed to be very rare.

Also if you have the power of the Mangekyo why the hell would you sacrifice it for just a one use Izanagi?
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Old 2013-11-14, 14:51   Link #1072
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All of you also keep bringing up the Uchiha massacre, time and time again. And once again I ask you, come up with a better solution. The Uchiha were out for blood, negotiations were failing, and they were ready to declare war on the village. What would you have done? Give them the time to start their coup, unleashing a civil war within the village, and assuring that another village would take the opportunity to wipe them out?

.
Sorry but this is my most hated argument for the justification for the Uchiha massacre that other villages would see the coup as an opportunity to invade. Because evidence in the manga is against this happening.

First example.
The Kyuubi attack

Which results with the 4th Hokage dead along with lots of other Konoha ninja as well as there big protective wall being broken.

No other villages launch a large scale attack.


Second example
Orochimaru's invasion of Konoha

The 3rd Hokage is dead as well as lots of other ninja plus Konoha's former strongest ally Suna now being an enemy and even if they reform the alliance quickly Suna is still leaderless. And if they wait a little while not only will Jiraiya have left the village for a month with the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki but Kakashi will also be out of commission.

No other villages launch a large scale attack


Third example
Pain's invasion

Village is destroyed and the 5th Hokage is out of action

No other villages launch a large scale attack
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Old 2013-11-14, 15:15   Link #1073
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Those Uchiha brothers have so many powers.
It pretty amazing when you give some thought.
Usually, shinobi have a small, limited number of jutsu.
But those Uchiha's are an exception, a very powerful one.
Guess only the gifted ones are lucky to have that much power.
Those two are also a nice example of how easy it is to go to the dark side.
The unavoidable flashbacks were nice.
Looks like Sasuke has some resentment towards Itachi.
Well, that's hardly surprising...
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Old 2013-11-15, 07:14   Link #1074
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Wow, this episode is so bad. "Ha, I'll use my Izanagi on you now!" "I don't think so, I got Izanagi too!" "Wait up, my Izanagi will win!".

It reminds me of Yu-Gi-Oh, where they keep screaming "You activated my trap card!" "Too bad for you, I had another trap card!" "But wait, bet you didn't see this trap card coming!".

Everyone is way too comfortable with sacrificing an eye for escaping death once. It's a one time use, and if you use the other eye too, twice. But then you're blind completely, and you'll get killed for sure. They all act as though Izanagi is a weapon they can keep on using, while that's not the case. And in a one on one fight, the guy who uses Izanagi first is basically at a huge disadvantage, because he can't use it anymore while the other guy can.

Ridiculous. This is why I hate anime filler.

Also, at first I thought this took place before the villages were founded. But then suddenly they all had a Konoha forehead protector. Are you telling me the Uchiha were killing each other off while living in the village, and the Hokage allowed this? Come on.
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Old 2013-11-15, 10:20   Link #1075
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Everyone is way too comfortable with sacrificing an eye for escaping death once. It's a one time use, and if you use the other eye too, twice. But then you're blind completely, and you'll get killed for sure. They all act as though Izanagi is a weapon they can keep on using, while that's not the case. And in a one on one fight, the guy who uses Izanagi first is basically at a huge disadvantage, because he can't use it anymore while the other guy can.

Ridiculous. This is why I hate anime filler.
this is the exact way izanami was presented in the manga. the animators didn't really have much to work with. i actually think they did a good job since their source material was so bad to begin with. if anything, this episode was easier to stomach than the manga chapter that explained the history of izanami
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Old 2013-11-15, 11:37   Link #1076
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I was actually glad they didn't spend too much time on explaining it in the manga. And the reason for that is this episode. It was a ridiculous story in the manga, but it was only a few lines and not that important, so forgettable. The anime went full retard with it.
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Old 2013-11-15, 17:28   Link #1077
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Weird that the previous episode preview had this flashback colored and the version we get is black and white. Different studios and all I guess.
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Old 2013-11-15, 17:44   Link #1078
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Different studios and all I guess.
More like a change of mind from the episode director. The episodes are generally still being worked on when their preview airs.
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Old 2013-11-16, 02:59   Link #1079
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The case of Itachi is more difficult to pinpoint within the story because of the author intent, I was only half joking about his fabulous ponytail. Contrarily to Danzo who is obviously an antagonist painted with great length by the author as an evil sob; Itachi (this pristine example of peaceful, loving and gentle man!) is meant to be seen as a tragic hero whose terrible deeds and crazed fucked up decisions cannot be held against him because he had no choice blah blah blah. And because he cannot possibly be blamed, the two others parties have to be unrealistically complete morons who systemically made the worst possible calls for decades until they reached the point of no-return - a point that was never even reached realistically speaking which is why the author doesn't really dwell into the specifics of the coup.
Itachi's story always cracks me up. That aside, I was so confused with this entire Isanami and Izanami correlation and the difference between the two. Can you summarize the bullet point, geezer? The amount of doujitsu Itachi possess begs the question if Sasuke will ever surpass him. Just when I think that Sasuke has mastered sharingan, Itachi poignantly interjects (even when he is dead) with, "there is more!"
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Old 2013-11-16, 09:24   Link #1080
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I can't summarize it to make sense, it doesn't, but basically :
  • Izanagi is a Doujutsu casted on oneself which work somewhat like a checkpoint in a video game. The user can "erase" anything that happened to him (and the anime showed that it also works on others which may or may not be correct) as long as the jutsu is active.
  • Izanagi is a Doujutsu which record a few events and sensations to create an illusory endless loop where you can trap someone forever just by looking at him long enough. The victim will remain stuck until he accepts his fate and stop trying to change his reality. The jutsu was conceived to "save" and teach a lesson for the Uchiha drunk with power after they used Izanagi.
  • Both those jutsu have a a steep price, the loss of the eye used.
Considering how overpowered those techniques are the author gave them a huge penalty but he didn't realize that the price made his entire story impossible. No one (well except for a bio-engineered freak with a Sharingarm) could use this more than once or else would find himself blind and defenseless. Not much time to get drunk on power nor much of a reason to sacrifice an eye just in case your comrade decides to do it twice.
As far as the filler scene with the Uchiha murdering each other screaming "There can be only one eye!" I didn't get it. Maybe they were fighting over their last slice of pizza.

Quote:
The amount of doujitsu Itachi possess begs the question if Sasuke will ever surpass him. Just when I think that Sasuke has mastered sharingan, Itachi poignantly interjects (even when he is dead) with, "there is more!"
It's more a problem of portrayal than actual power to be honest, it's very similar to Minato and Naruto. Sasuke could become a hundred times more powerful and still wouldn't be half the Sue Itachi is.
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