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Old 2012-03-20, 08:22   Link #141
Kyuu
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Meh. I've never really had a bias over the different "eras". Different times, different technology.

While I end up seeing more and more of today's stuff - I don't mind going back on a few series back in the day. I still have to finish up much of the Slayers series, after all. Plus, there are a bunch of old gems back in the day too -- like oh... I dunno... Goldenboy and Gunbuster.

Also... you know that you've been on the Internets long enough... if you know what a "web ring" is.

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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor
So. Who remembers Anipike?
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Old 2012-03-20, 08:43   Link #142
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I'm kind of with Kyuu here... I have favorites out of each era and more than one genre. I like a variety of art styles. I will say I was ambivalent on anime in general until I discovered there were comedy series and romantic comedy series. Those tend to be my favored items to watch.
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Old 2012-03-20, 10:03   Link #143
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Anime is designed for a japanese audience. A unpracticed westerner (okay, white, black, or latino) frequently fails to notice cues that differentiate asians in real life - they may just be bad at noticing the cues in anime as well. They can't tell asian ages either without practice (cue the innumerable "that's jail bait" noises made at adult asian women).
Anime is not exactly designed for Japanese audience, its more like a niche target audience which over the years has been narrowed even more to target mainly otakus.

Which is what my first post in the thread was saying, niche target audience leading to a narrow range of creativity and expression. Otakus being the bulk of paying audience has increased the frequency of moe anime and style over the years. And the anime industry's failure to adapt has cost them much in recent years. Alot of Japanese shun anime and otakus simply because the amount of pretty and cute is too creepy for them.

The same can be seen internationally, anime simply can't beat western animation. Most of the world prefers less pretty and we are the niche audience outside of Japan who can still appreciate anime. Just to remind everyone that I've been objective in my posts all the while, I'm criticising anime even though I watch lots of anime myself. But after I became an animator, I believe I've watched more international animation than anime and I can see why anime remains such a niche type of animation.

And back to the main discussion of this thread, 80's and modern. One big factor that differentiates the vintage anime style and modern is the artists' training in arts. Art in the olden days was a practice that demands a great amount of technical training, alot of the old mangka are figure drawing artists with great skill.

The modern practice in art has been watered down alot, people no longer spend the whole day everyday on figure drawing, still life, drawing straight lines and circles. People no longer create a style out of their sheer amount of drawing, but instead take on the styles of others and tweak it to their own style. This is seen in all areas of art and design, not just manga.

And in anime its another story entirely, simply because the animators are not the original mangaka or character designers, they are people who draw to the style of the studio. From thousands of mangakas, the manga are adapted into hundreds of studios, instantly narrowing the style range from thousands of styles into hundreds. And the anime industry further narrows it down for niche target audience. Modern anime is the result of such manufacturing processes, a narrow band of styles.
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Old 2012-03-20, 12:36   Link #144
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[QUOTE=Kyuu;4062185]



Quote:
Compare the original designs of Da Capo (Kotori) and Dirty Pair:

Spoiler for Spoiler for space:
Pretty big skill difference.
Now now, that's not very fair to compare a game design to manga. Of course you can have all that skill and detail in manga! Manga has no restrictions because it isn't animated.

Quote:
So. Who remembers Anipike?
*gasp*
ME!!
Is it still around? That's where I ALWAYS used to go when I wanted info/pics from fansites!

Who remembers angelfire and geocities?

Quote:
anime simply can't beat western animation.
I'm gonna go laugh now. XD

Quote:
and I can see why anime remains such a niche type of animation.
It's not so niche here in PA, I can tell you that! You can buy Bleach, Naruto, and Sailormoon at Wal-mart and Haruhi in SOME grocery stores! Anime and manga are so much more popular than they used to be.
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Old 2012-03-20, 12:52   Link #145
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Who remembers angelfire and geocities?
I do. It's been a long time. I don't know whether they're still exist or not.
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Old 2012-03-20, 13:18   Link #146
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Old 2012-03-20, 13:22   Link #147
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
I'm gonna go laugh now. XD

It's not so niche here in PA, I can tell you that! You can buy Bleach, Naruto, and Sailormoon at Wal-mart and Haruhi in SOME grocery stores! Anime and manga are so much more popular than they used to be.
I'm not offending or insulting you, but if you do laugh because you find that statement wrong, you really are ignorant about animation as a film making technique, process and the industry as a whole. It is not uncommon for anime fans to think of anime as good animation, because alot of anime fans simply do not like western animation and thus are unexposed to the vast amount of great animation there is out there.

I would save each other about the history of animation,the animating and film techniques and technology used in animation as a whole. The simple fact is as an animation and film, anime is primitive and technically inferior to the west.

I seem to praise the west alot, so to reaffirm my objectivity, I'm a South East Asian who grew up on mecha anime since the age of 3. I do love anime, but the fact is anime is inferior to most animation out there. Static pretty pictures, sparkly blinking eyes and insane explosions after a badass static pose says nothing about animation. They are all just pretty pictures and not animation. Even the very best of Miyazaki's hand drawn animations still do not compare in technique to the true masterpiece classics of 1940's Disney animation. Sure Ghibli has really pretty and colourful worlds, but I credit that to artist Kazuo Oga more than anything.

If its not niche, how come you're only mentioning the most mainstream of series that is on sale? And do you think the series you mentioned outsells other non Japanese animations?
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Old 2012-03-20, 14:23   Link #148
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I can't really disagree there, and I guess it's only fair that Western cartoons excel in one area seeing how terrible they are overall. Not much of a resume, though... "Our artwork is sparse and bland, our soundtracks are meaningless background noise, the shows themselves are generally vapid nonsense that even kids in the upper single digits find hard to enjoy (I was one of them btw), and we basically just churn out cheap, poorly-written, low-quality garbage because we think kids are too stupid to enjoy anything else, but hey, at least the characters move real smoothly!"

(I'm just referring to cartoon television series, mind; American animated films actually have some merit, and in that field Japan and the United States are on much more even ground, though I still prefer Japan there.)
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Old 2012-03-20, 14:29   Link #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I would save each other about the history of animation,the animating and film techniques and technology used in animation as a whole. The simple fact is as an animation and film, anime is primitive and technically inferior to the west.

I seem to praise the west alot, so to reaffirm my objectivity, I'm a South East Asian who grew up on mecha anime since the age of 3. I do love anime, but the fact is anime is inferior to most animation out there. Static pretty pictures, sparkly blinking eyes and insane explosions after a badass static pose says nothing about animation. They are all just pretty pictures and not animation. Even the very best of Miyazaki's hand drawn animations still do not compare in technique to the true masterpiece classics of 1940's Disney animation. Sure Ghibli has really pretty and colourful worlds, but I credit that to artist Kazuo Oga more than anything.
I agree with most of what you said, but outside of the silver age of Disney western animation for a long time wasn't more advanced or different from anime. Both used static and pretty picture animation (limited animation). If you look at the 60s, 70s and 80s companies like Hanna-Barbera, DePatie-Freleng and Filmation mostly produced limited animation works in the same manner as the Japanese studios. The last of that type of show was Brave Starr before pretty much every major studio outside of Disney had gone bankrupt or stopped producing animation (partly because of outsourcing to and competition with Asian studios). Even Disney had hard time before they reinvented themselves with The Little Mermaid.

Things turned around in the late 80s with Warner Bros returning to animation and lead the way with Tiny Toon Adventures and Animaniacs both of whom were pretty revolutionary for that time. Seth MacFarlane, Butch Hartman, and Genndy Tartakovsky brought Hanna-Barbera back from the dead and around the same time Matt Groening came up with the Simpsons. The technological innovation in western animation can partly be traced back to the restart of the industry at that time when new ideas were desperately needed.

The Japanese studios on the other hand have simply continued the old practice of limited animation. The development in anime has been more on producing the same type of material with increasingly cheaper production methods. If you remove that static element, will it still be anime?

Last edited by Bri; 2012-03-20 at 14:46.
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Old 2012-03-20, 14:37   Link #150
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Some of the 90s western animation was done by the Japanese anyway. There has even been a suggestion that Kyoto Animation was involved with at least one episode of Animaniacs as contract work for TMS. They have been around since 1981. They just didn't do their own work until the last decade.
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Old 2012-03-20, 15:02   Link #151
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Originally Posted by mecharobot View Post
If there is one thing I've never understood, it would be the common anime fans hatred against noses. Is it such a bad things to have?
I would say no. Just ask Akagi or Kaiji.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:00   Link #152
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Static pretty pictures, sparkly blinking eyes and insane explosions after a badass static pose says nothing about animation. They are all just pretty pictures and not animation.
Now that's just downright untrue. We all know how animation in anime tends to suddenly become tenfold better during the more important scenes. Japanese animation studios don't have the budget to make every single moment of every single episode look awesome and smooth, but the animation does do its job properly when it really has to.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:05   Link #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I'm not offending or insulting you, but if you do laugh because you find that statement wrong, you really are ignorant about animation as a film making technique, process and the industry as a whole. It is not uncommon for anime fans to think of anime as good animation, because alot of anime fans simply do not like western animation and thus are unexposed to the vast amount of great animation there is out there.
I'm not looking at "just the animation", I'm looking at "the WHOLE package". Story, characters, settings, music, direction, creativity etc. Only Disney and its ex-animators like Bluth can come relatively close to what the best anime has to offer and they just barely scratch the surface. I really couldn't care less about "how fluid the movements are".


Quote:
If its not niche, how come you're only mentioning the most mainstream of series that is on sale?
Because back in the 90s, you had to go to a specialty comic or video store to get even the mainstream ones.

Quote:
And do you think the series you mentioned outsells other non Japanese animations?
Not Disney or Dreamworks films but compared to other animated TV shows? Beyond a doubt.

Quote:
Things turned around in the late 80s with Warner Bros returning to animation and lead the way with Tiny Toon Adventures and Animaniacs both of whom were pretty revolutionary for that time. Seth MacFarlane, Butch Hartman, and Genndy Tartakovsky brought Hanna-Barbera back from the dead and around the same time Matt Groening came up with the Simpsons. The technological innovation in western animation can partly be traced back to the restart of the industry at that time when new ideas were desperately needed.
Those were the days....

Quote:
Not much of a resume, though... "Our artwork is sparse and bland, our soundtracks are meaningless background noise, the shows themselves are generally vapid nonsense that even kids in the upper single digits find hard to enjoy (I was one of them btw), and we basically just churn out cheap, poorly-written, low-quality garbage because we think kids are too stupid to enjoy anything else, but hey, at least the characters move real smoothly!
THIS. The cartoons they run on TV nowadays are such utter CRAP compared to what I was used to seeing. Thank God I can escape to digital cable and watch Dexter's Lab and Powerpuff Girls on On Demand whenever I wish.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:06   Link #154
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I would say no. Just ask Akagi or Kaiji.
Actually, I wanted to punch some of those characters smack on the nose.
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:19   Link #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Actually, I wanted to punch some of those characters smack on the nose.
Then there was that FUGLY guy lurking around in all the Tenchi series with the giant nose. XD
.........I'm not sure if he even had a name.

Spoiler for "lol this guy:


Weren't there some guys in Evangelion with wicked-looking noses too? The ones who sat around the table....?
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Old 2012-03-20, 16:53   Link #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
Actually, I wanted to punch some of those characters smack on the nose.
You're just jealous your nose isn't as big as theirs.
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Old 2012-03-20, 19:02   Link #157
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Some of the 90s western animation was done by the Japanese anyway. There has even been a suggestion that Kyoto Animation was involved with at least one episode of Animaniacs as contract work for TMS. They have been around since 1981. They just didn't do their own work until the last decade.
True, that relationship dates back further even. The bulk of 1980s cartoons were all animated in Japan, Korea, Taiwan and the Philippines.

http://80scartoons.net/toons/

hmm, scary how much I remember from that list...
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Old 2012-03-20, 19:29   Link #158
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I do love anime, but the fact is anime is inferior to most animation out there. Static pretty pictures, sparkly blinking eyes and insane explosions after a badass static pose says nothing about animation. They are all just pretty pictures and not animation. Even the very best of Miyazaki's hand drawn animations still do not compare in technique to the true masterpiece classics of 1940's Disney animation. Sure Ghibli has really pretty and colourful worlds, but I credit that to artist Kazuo Oga more than anything.

If its not niche, how come you're only mentioning the most mainstream of series that is on sale? And do you think the series you mentioned outsells other non Japanese animations?
You have taken most good American animation into account, but there lots of Western cartoons with mediocre or even plain awefull animation. I am not saying that anime has overall better art, but you seem to neglict all the horrible animated things that can be seen on the American television.

edit: while we are in the subject of animation : I don't think japanese animation is that bad at all. Especially compared to the things that I have seen from cartoons made in other countries like England, France, Germany, China, Italy

Last edited by hyl; 2012-03-20 at 20:17.
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Old 2012-03-20, 20:17   Link #159
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I made a new post instead of editting my previous for a different matter.
Also I didn't read this thread untill today

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post

Funny that you include Panty and Stocking when its obviously using the Powerpuff Girls style. Everything else you mentioned seem to fall under big eyes including Shin-chan, otherwise cute characters as well.
But the power puff style was heavily influenced by exaggerated japanese anime of the 90's. So...


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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
It is not common in other parts of the world to have art styles of different studios that are similar to each other. Disney, Looney Tunes, Simpsons, Southpark, Powerpuff Girls, Sponge Bob, Flintstones, immediately one can see how different all these are, they all have different proportions, different eyes, different facial structures and all the way down to different drawing and colouring style.

The mentioned examples have indeed different styles, but most of them were also made in different decades. So i am not sure if it's a fair example to use against only the recently japanese anime.
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
There are alot of people out there who can draw anime or manga style art, but how many can actually draw the anatomically complex styles of Marvel, DC, Neil Gaiman's Sandman or Chinese manhua?

I have seen many anatomically incorrect drawn characters from Marvel, DC and Black horse comics. Like the most common mistake of physical impossible poses seen in many covers. Also in lots of instances the proportions and the muscules of how the characters are drawn in these comics are also quite exagerated and sometimes anatomically incorrect.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Of course there are simple art styles that are also not anatomically correct like Powerpuff Girls, Simpsons and many more, but at least they are completely unique and varied, compared to anime and manga.Definitely there is nothing wrong for a style to be what it is or superior in a greater sense than technicalities, but if the entire industry were to draw a similar style, there is a lack of creativity and boldness to explore and experiment

Are pretty looking or anatomically correct characters the only way to attract audience? Definitely not, otherwise Simpsons, Southpark and tons of other cartoons would have failed long ago and not have such a huge cult following that overshadows even anime.
From what you've quoted me for this question, I don't mean that the body proportion is bad, I mean that the lack of variety of body proportion is bad. I'll use one of my favourite anime, Haruhi, to describe and to cast away biasness.
I think it's also a matter of preference. I don't like some of these unique style of animation like most cartoons like Beavis and Buthead or the earlier nickolodeon cartoons like Ren and Stimpy , but i am sure some people like it.
Also some cartoons with unique style like simpsons or south park are not doing that well because of its animation, but rather for its satircal content.
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Old 2012-03-20, 23:11   Link #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post


But the power puff style was heavily influenced by exaggerated japanese anime of the 90's. So...
Amazing how that full circle was made, isn't it?


Quote:
I think it's also a matter of preference. I don't like some of these unique style of animation like most cartoons like Beavis and Buthead or the earlier nickolodeon cartoons like Ren and Stimpy , but i am sure some people like it.
I hated Ren and Stimpy as a child; it grossed me out. Now I find it delightfully idiotic to the point that it's funny. I will still take most anime over it though. Even anime equivalents like Crayon Shin-chan. XD

Quote:
Also some cartoons with unique style like simpsons or south park are not doing that well because of its animation, but rather for its satircal content.
That's for sure. Family Guy too. TV keeps proving to us that if you are outrageous, you will get high ratings. That's why reality TV shows with people screaming at one another are so popular now. The aforementioned cartoons are smarter shows at least.
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