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Old 2012-03-20, 23:51   Link #161
kenjiharima
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It depends on the anime design on the 80's.

Iam still liking the Dragonball look till now and the old school Fists of the North Star, Akira, Battle Angle Alita, even old school Gundam I still like and Ranma, though I do not like Inuyasha.


here's a blast from the past. Nostalgic thread thanks, reminded me how much I love watching anime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdRstGMvkss
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Old 2012-03-21, 07:38   Link #162
C.A.
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You have taken most good American animation into account, but there lots of Western cartoons with mediocre or even plain awefull animation. I am not saying that anime has overall better art, but you seem to neglict all the horrible animated things that can be seen on the American television.

edit: while we are in the subject of animation : I don't think japanese animation is that bad at all. Especially compared to the things that I have seen from cartoons made in other countries like England, France, Germany, China, Italy
I believe you're not as exposed as much to international animation as you think.

If you mention England and France, then you'll need to look at Aardman and Gobelins. Aardman is one of the best stop motion animation studios in the world, Gobelins is the best animation school in the world, literally under a hundred students are picked out from tens of thousands of portfolios every year and the graduates find immediate positions in the best animation studios.

And there's Wakfu, a French cartoon series commissioned to Gobelins by the MMORPG of the same name. This cartoon is setting the industry standard for animated series now.

And guess what, Gobelins thought just animating in 2D was too simple for them, they churn out weekly full episodes in Flash. Yes the mediocre amateurish animating software that people use to make stuff float around on websites. Gobelins fully explores the potential of vector and tween graphic technologies producing an incredibly smooth and clean animation series. They also continuously challenge themselves to animate even more every new episode, one of the latest episodes had an entire stadium with every single spectator fully animated.

Here's a sample:



Also I do agree that sometimes Marvel goes too over the top with their muscles and poses, but the art direction and quality is still very high. Chinese Manhua are truly pieces of art though.

Alot of crazy cartoons like Spongebob and other Nickolodeon stuff actually have better animations than anime. Of course aesthetically people will think anime is more pretty, which is its graphical selling point, but anime applies very little of the principles of animation to its already low FPS. Alot of the craziness that goes on in those cartoons actually requires skillful animation to pull them off so they look convincingly crazy but not stupid and stale.

Principles like Squash and Stretch, Follow Through and Overlapping action are rarely executed in anime. But Gainax applies every single animation principle, they are the only animation studio that does that, which gives them their signature exaggerated dynamics and of course Gainax Bounce.
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Old 2012-03-21, 09:37   Link #163
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I believe you're not as exposed as much to international animation as you think.

If you mention England and France, then you'll need to look at Aardman and Gobelins. Aardman is one of the best stop motion animation studios in the world, Gobelins is the best animation school in the world, literally under a hundred students are picked out from tens of thousands of portfolios every year and the graduates find immediate positions in the best animation studios.


And there's Wakfu, a French cartoon series commissioned to Gobelins by the MMORPG of the same name. This cartoon is setting the industry standard for animated series now.


And guess what, Gobelins thought just animating in 2D was too simple for them, they churn out weekly full episodes in Flash. Yes the mediocre amateurish animating software that people use to make stuff float around on websites. Gobelins fully explores the potential of vector and tween graphic technologies producing an incredibly smooth and clean animation series. They also continuously challenge themselves to animate even more every new episode, one of the latest episodes had an entire stadium with every single spectator fully animated.

You are again only looking at the most famous studios and not at the general ones.
I am not saying that both England or France don't have good ones, but from my experience the majority of the animated shows that they show on television or paid TV are not that good. Most of them suffer from low budget, choppy or simple animation and other problems.

Also you seem to forget that anime (also called manga in France) is more popular than their own cartoons and the popularity is probably even on par with their comic book icons like Asterix and Obelix or the Smurfs.
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Old 2012-03-21, 09:41   Link #164
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post

Also you seem to forget that anime (also called manga in France) is more popular than their own cartoons and the popularity is probably even on par with their comic book icons like Asterix and Obelix or the Smurfs.
I would say that Son Goku, Naruto and Luffy pretty much overshadowed them. True story, bro.
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Old 2012-03-21, 09:43   Link #165
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@that youtube video: I'll never understand how people can stand watching flash animation.

I prefer this fight:
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:02   Link #166
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Now, one would think, that since I was a kid during the late 80s, I would love the animation style due to the "golden childhood age" reasons.... but I dont!!!

Maybe I dislike the 80s art style, because I asociate it with the animes back then and I just didnt like anime when I was a kid. I prefered the western animation.



Just like the person who opened this thread, I feel the character design is simplistic, lacking facial expressions, the hairstyles suck, eyes look void of life and all in all it looks terribly ugly.

But it seems the majority prefers the 80s.... which kind of makes me wonder, why the studios dont give their fans what they want. Maybe the japanese audience doesnt like it?


PS: as for how similar todays characters look opposed to the 80s, I must disagree. I feel that back then the girls really looked all the same. The same height, the same body shape (ridiculously long legs and bee-like waist, etc..) There is far more variation these days.

I mean depending on the genre, you get totally different art styles these days. Not all animes designs sport huge eyes. Thats mainly the case in the moe corner, which I avoid like the devil the cross. The animes I watch dont have the super huge eyes look and thats good, because I find that annoying. Another thing that annoys me from the modern animation style is, when girls have shiny skin, aka they looked like somebody applied wax polish on them and their knees, arms and sometimes even faces reflect light. Whose skin does that in RL? What purpose does that serve other than looking ridiculously unnatural?
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:09   Link #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Alot of crazy cartoons like Spongebob and other Nickolodeon stuff actually have better animations than anime. Of course aesthetically people will think anime is more pretty, which is its graphical selling point
Higher aesthetics are not the only things anime has going for it. >_> It actually has intelligence, deep thought, and characters you actually CARE about. Can you think of a Spongebob episode that pulled at your heartstrings or made you say "Wow, that was deep."?

Quote:
Alot of the craziness that goes on in those cartoons actually requires skillful animation to pull them off so they look convincingly crazy but not stupid and stale.
Just stupid. :'D

Quote:
But it seems the majority prefers the 80s.... which kind of makes me wonder, why the studios dont give their fans what they want. Maybe the japanese audience doesnt like it?
I don't know if it's the majority here. The thread seems full of mixed answers with "It depends" and "I like this but not that".
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:15   Link #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warita View Post

But it seems the majority prefers the 80s.... which kind of makes me wonder, why the studios dont give their fans what they want. Maybe the japanese audience doesnt like it?
You can easily guess which fans do the studios cater to. Hint, those in their home market. So, no, they are not going to listen to a group of westerners who thinks that everything is shinier, sparklier and edgier in the 1980s.

Also what you think that majority is, it is a very vocal minority, compared to the silent majority who just don't give a crap and just watch series as those comes out.
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:23   Link #169
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
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I think the fact that the vast majority of anime nowadays is 12-13 episodes as opposed to the 80s' much lengthier series certainly doesn't help.
I think that has hurt the story lines of anime more than any particular art style.
And I would say just the opposite - that a lower number of episodes keeps the plot tight and relevant. There's no time for filler, so there's no filler. It's why Elfen Lied and Madoka (13 and 12 episodes) are among my favorites, and probably why everyone seems to love FLCL (6 episodes).

Can a 50-100-200 episode anime have a longer story with more arcs? Unquestionably. Is the story executed better? I'd say that's up for debate.
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:26   Link #170
Sheba
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Series like Madoka Magica are more the exception than the rule tho. I have seen more series being silly and fanservice-y then remembering "OH SHIT WE HAVE PLOT! SPEED UP!!" and rush the ending than a tight paced storytelling. However, I can not exclude the possibility that one of the reasons is that most of those were adaptations of ongoing novels, or manga.
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:35   Link #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I have seen more series being silly and fanservice-y then remembering "OH SHIT WE HAVE PLOT! SPEED UP!!" and rush the ending than a tight paced storytelling.
I've seen that too....and it's annoying sometimes...
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:47   Link #172
warita
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Can you think of a Spongebob episode that pulled at your heartstrings or made you say "Wow, that was deep."?
But Spongebob selling point is precisely that it isnt deep. It isnt supposed to be and thats why I love it. It is simple and enjoyable and I can just switch off my brain and be happy.
I watch different genres for different moods and I certainly dont expect spongebob to be deep, I expect to laugh at it. If I want something animated and deep, I usually turn to something that has been produced around 2006-2007.


Quote:
Also what you think that majority is, it is a very vocal minority, compared to the silent majority who just don't give a crap and just watch series as those comes out.
So what you are saying is, that people who are either indifferent or like the modern art style dont say anything? I do think this could be true for people who dont care, but I dont see why people who prefer the modern style should be silent? I mean opinions were asked, people say what they prefer.

I must say I am surprised that the majority of people who voiced their opinion here prefer the 80s, I thought most anime fans like the modern art. I know I do!!
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:49   Link #173
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Originally Posted by fanty View Post
I prefer this fight:
Thank you!

I've been looking for that sequence off and on for the past couple of years. It was pulled from YouTube at one point because of a DMCA request. I guess either the rights holders no longer care, or it will be disappearing again some day.
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Old 2012-03-21, 10:54   Link #174
Sheba
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Originally Posted by warita View Post
But Spongebob selling point is precisely that it isnt deep. It isnt supposed to be and thats why I love it. It is simple and enjoyable and I can just switch off my brain and be happy.
I watch different genres for different moods and I certainly dont expect spongebob to be deep, I expect to laugh at it. If I want something animated and deep, I usually turn to something that has been produced around 2006-2007.


So what you are saying is, that people who are either indifferent or like the modern art style dont say anything? I do think this could be true for people who dont care, but I dont see why people who prefer the modern style should be silent? I mean opinions were asked, people say what they prefer.

I must say I am surprised that the majority of people who voiced their opinion here prefer the 80s, I thought most anime fans like the modern art. I know I do!!
Not every person who goes to this forum have checked this thread and even fewer felt compelled to answer, maybe they don't have the time, don't care or are more than comfortable with their own personal taste.

Threrefore the sample is very limited and hardly representative.

Myself, a fan of anime since the glorious days of Harlock and Grendizer airing on french TV, in the 80s, have come to terms with the fact that producers, and japanese fans, have moved on. I mean, myself, I had been even surprised to hear that Cowboy Bebop did not do that well in its home market, this series that I consider among one of the best that the 90s as a decade have offered.
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Old 2012-03-21, 12:51   Link #175
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
And I would say just the opposite - that a lower number of episodes keeps the plot tight and relevant. There's no time for filler, so there's no filler. It's why Elfen Lied and Madoka (13 and 12 episodes) are among my favorites, and probably why everyone seems to love FLCL (6 episodes).

Can a 50-100-200 episode anime have a longer story with more arcs? Unquestionably. Is the story executed better? I'd say that's up for debate.
Except that... they often still have "filler" in only 12 episodes (the word "filler" doesn't tell me much because a lot of people use the word differently). The kind of anime I like often *needs* two cour for proper story management or to even sketch out the source material. I have seen little increase in "tightness" with one cour and I attribute that to the relative scarcity of skill on the writing talent in the industry. And I wasn't talking about 50+ episodes series, you're simply picking an utter extreme that I don't really care to watch (the "never ending storyline" series).

I try to imagine Love*Com, Spice&Wolf, or Toradora told in one cour instead of two and it would just be a slash'n'burn of the story line. The one cour format is fine for certain genre but it isn't a fair format for others. I'll let the LotGH fans imagine their epic told in a one cour format.

But as for the thread topic - there's always going to be *someone* who can't focus on the story because the artwork disrupts their concentration. As I've said, I like Dirty Pair the way it is - just as I like Toradora or Love*Com the way they are. There is probably MORE variety in art styles now than there was in the 80s (I suppose we could count the styles variations to check if we're being analytical) - which I view as a good thing.

Last edited by Vexx; 2012-03-21 at 13:19.
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Old 2012-03-21, 14:04   Link #176
C.A.
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You are again only looking at the most famous studios and not at the general ones.
I am not saying that both England or France don't have good ones, but from my experience the majority of the animated shows that they show on television or paid TV are not that good. Most of them suffer from low budget, choppy or simple animation and other problems.
If we're still on the topic of animation and not style for our side discussion here, majority of anime itself are low budget choppy and simple animations.

The main thing that makes anime fans think that anime has good animation is the pretty style and detail. I'm sure you have seen many times on AS where people can't even differentiate between animation and graphics. Anime has a really bad habit of saving manpower and budget, which is still frames, they are notorious in the animation industry for that.

I'm an Evangelion and Gainax fan, but I'll use it as an example, its probably one of the least animated works of Gainax. Remember how many episodes where there were scenes of two minutes of doing absolutely nothing? Shinji staring at the ceiling, sitting in the train, the animators saved hundreds, thousands of frames while the only thing that kept those scenes alive were BGM and voice actors. Remember the number of elevator and escalator scenes? Those are basically hundreds of still frames with just a panning or zooming background.

Anime is literally animated by sound, the music and voice acting creates illusionary movement for the scenes. Even so despite the amount of effort and investment in voice acting, animators do not animate conversations. When characters talk to each other, the only thing that moves is the mouth and lately there's even a trend where they don't even show the face of the talking character, a complete still frame of conversation. This would have been completely unacceptable in cartoons, conversations always come with gestures and facial animation, both requires knowledge and skill of acting and staging.

Such 'cheats' to cut of corners and save budge in anime persist till now and yet they are demanding so much money for their DVDs and Blurays. If you're saying the fight scenes are worth it, then you're really only paying for less than a tenth of the animation. And even fight scenes are packed full of sliding still poses and repeating frames. Anime is the only type of film where the audience is happy even with the lack of motion. Probably one of factors the niche audience of anime has is the acceptance of such lack of motion.

The only thing that anime has over western animation besides pretty aesthetics are the stories, not the writing, but the range of themes and genres.
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Old 2012-03-21, 14:07   Link #177
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I have a question for C.A, is there any truth to the rumor that since the switch to CG a lot of the former hand drawn animators have found themselves on the outside of the industry looking in and that their skills threaten to become a thing of the past and lost to time forever diminishing the style and quality of Japanese animation? If so its kind of a scary thought.


Also I just want to add to the thread that in rewatching Turn A gundam (one of the last anime series I know to have been hand drawback I'm struck by how much better its aged than both Gundam seed and Destiny which came years later. Some of the sequences and backgrounds in it look positively gorgeous detailed and lived in while Seed looks incredibly bland by comparison bordering on awful and gaudy. What a contrast between late hand drawn and early CG drawn styles.
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Old 2012-03-21, 14:22   Link #178
C.A.
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I have a question for C.A, is there any truth to the rumor that since the switch to CG a lot of the former hand drawn animators have found themselves on the outside of the industry looking in and that their skills threaten to become a thing of the past and lost to time forever diminishing the style and quality of Japanese animation? If so its kind of a scary thought.
I do not have a complete or official answer for that, but I can say that if the traditional artists do not learn digital techniques, they are very likely losing their jobs.

The transition to CG did not make life any easier than what they had traditionally, animators are still sleeping under their desks or tents in their studios and this is true. CG allows a more rapid production, no need to wait for paint to dry and countless other factors, but the demand for better quality makes the work hours just as long.

A CG frame is drawn digitally, made sure that the lines are all closed and ready for colouring using the 'paint bucket' tool. Then the whole set of frames are sent to the guy who does colours and this guy who's only job in the studio is the paint bucket tool has developed muscle memory so much that he literally paint buckets each frame in seconds. CG backgrounds are then added in, goes through special effects software and then everything is edited together digitally.

The only need for traditional medium is probably pre-production, the anime production itself is completely digital.

And yes one of the reasons CG looks less lively is because of the manufacturing process. If animation production is to be compared to factories, Japanese animation studios are literally sweatshops. The animators are badly paid and they don't even have time to go home for a shower and eat something other than cup noodles.

EDIT: also I forgot to mention the term 'wriggling lines', that's what we call the imperfect lines of traditional hand drawn animation, it is one of the factors makes traditional animation lively.

Also I want to say that even while anime production is very harsh and the animators don't have the best working conditions, but in no way they are bad animators. Japanese animators are extremely hard working and passionate, they work not for the money but their art. Even though anime may not have the best animation, its not because of the animators skills, its the time and budget constraints.
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Last edited by C.A.; 2012-03-21 at 14:46.
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Old 2012-03-21, 15:19   Link #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
The only need for traditional medium is probably pre-production, the anime production itself is completely digital.
Really,?I was under the impression the vast majority of Key animation was still done with pencil and paper.

Sure the painting and the backrounds are all digital but I thought the basic key animation was still done by hand.
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Old 2012-03-21, 15:52   Link #180
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You can likely draw out the Key frames in pre-production and tract them into a computer.
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